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Assisted suicide
This is a very complex issue. We cannot judge exactly what kind of kamma are accumulated by either the person making the decision to end his/her life or other persons assisting.As I discussed before, there are two key factors to be remembered in evaluating how to assess a kammā vipāka; see, “What is Intention in Kamma?“:
- Which of the dasa akusala is the intention? For example, it could be taking a life, stealing, or harsh speech. Who is affected is not involved in this step. The “cetana” in “cetana ham bhikkhave kamman vadami”, is just which dasa akusala is in one’s mind; that is all.
- Then the strength of the kammā vipāka is based on the “level of consciousness” or “qualities” of the living beings affected by that kammā. For example, killing a human will bring stronger kamma vipaka than killing an animal.
Also remember that some kamma lead to both good and bad vipaka. For example, if one saves the life of a frog which was about to be eaten by snake, one would gain merits by saving the frog’s life, but gets bad vipaka for depriving the snake of its meal (food).
I would just stay away from these issues, unless I am involved in the process myself. Then I would have to make the decision based on the exact situation that I need to deal with. It is unfruitful (and could even lead to bad vaci sankhara) to just speculate on kamma done by others. We simply do not know their exact situation(s).
First of all, “desires” are two kinds:
- Desire for sense pleasures. This also has a wide range from kamaccandha (removed at Sotapanna stage) to kama raga (removed at Anagami stage) to rupa raga and arupa raga (removed at Arahant stage).
- Desire to attain Nibbana. This is chanda iddhipada, one of satara iddhipada or four bases of mental power: “The Four Bases of Mental Power (Satara Iddhipada)“.
Anything that one “desires” to do in order to attain Nibbana falls under chanda iddhipada.
Desire to learn Sinhala is of the second kind. And it makes sense because Sinhala is the closest to Pali. It is easier to learn Pali, if one knows Sinhala language.
– On the contrary, Sanskrit (which many people try to learn) is the wrong language to learn. Sanskrit words are deliberately composed to provide mundane meanings and also to make enticing and appear sophisticated. The Sanskrit word for paticca samuppada, pratityasamutpada, is a good example. It sounds sophisticated, but does not convey anything.- The Buddha specifically instructed not to translate Tipitaka to Sanskrit, because of this problem; see #5 of “Preservation of the Dhamma“.
The best way to learn Sinhala could be just go to Sri Lanka and spend a few months. I am not sure whether that is practical. Another possibility is to learn from a Sinhala-speaking person if one is available for regular interaction (i.e, if such a person lives close by).
Hi Tobias:
Yes. It is a subtle point. The key is the is that just by doing kusala kamma one CANNOT remove the ditthi anusaya. This is why it is not possible to attain Nibbana just via moral conduct (sila).
Without removing the ditthi anusaya (and vicikicca anusaya, which is also related to getting to Ariya Samma Ditthi), one cannot start removing the other types of anusaya. This happens only at the Sotapanna stage.
– But anyone can do kusala kamma with alobha, adosa, amoha. That does not require panna (wisdom), which is the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
– Ditthi anusaya cannot be broken just with alobha, adosa, amoha. Without breaking the ditthi anusaya, one cannot remove the remaining anusaya.Those remaining anusaya are then removed at higher magga phala; see, “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbana“.
It is amazing that ditthi anusaya is responsible for 99+% of the akusala kamma conducted by a given person. At one time, the Buddha took a bit of dirt to his fingernail and told the bhikkhus that if the soil in the whole Earth (or is it the amount in a given mountain?, I don’t remember) is compared to the defilements of a normal human, then the amount that a Sotapanna has remaining can be compared to that bit of dirt. The point is that what is remaining to be removed (by getting rid of other types anusaya) is relatively very small.
People tend to think about killing, stealing, etc (those done by the bodily actions and speech) to be the prominent dasa akusala. But one does more akusala by the mind (conscious thinking or vaci sankhara) based on wrong views (which under tempting situations can easily lead to akusala by the body and speech). This is why removing ditthi anusaya is so important!
It is also important to realize that ditthi anusaya or wrong views are removed at two stages, as I keep emphasizing: First, the 10 types of micca ditthi removed before the Sotapanna stage, and then wrong views on nicca, sukha, atta nature of this world removed starting at the Sotapanna stage.
@Embodied: Satipatthana (and Anapana) can be done by anyone at any stage. One just needs to be mindful and stay away from dasa akusala, and also cultivate kusala/punna kamma.
Vipassana can be done by anyone too, but it will become more effective as one starts comprehending Tilakkhana. In a way, this is also true of Satipatthana (and Anapana), since one will become better at it with an understanding of the “true nature” of this world.
I mostly agree with what Akvan said above.
But I think it is a good idea to elaborate on some points. So, my next post will be on this issue. If anyone else has any other related questions/comments, please post them. I can try to address those too.
Thank you, Tobias, for catching that error. I just revised #1 in that post. I will read that post carefully and make any more necessary corrections.
It is essential to sort out the two types of “right thinking” or Samma Sankappa. In fact, each of all 8 steps on the Path have two types. These have been discussed, but I will summarize again.
The problem with most translations is that they do not pinpoint the key issues, but rather translate Pali word by word. Pali is a phonetic language. One has to get the meaning of the overall sentence. So, let us discuss the essence.
Eightfold path (either one) works step-by-step. Both sets of eightfold paths start with “right vision”. One’s thinking is ALWAYS based on one’s knowledge or more correctly panna (wisdom).
This is not book knowledge, but knowledge about the wider world of 31 realms.
It comes in two stages:- First getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi involving the laws of kamma, knowing the difference between right and wrong (dasa akusala), etc.
- At that point, one’s mind is capable of grasping the Tilakkhana (anicca,dukkha, anatta), the Three Characteristics of Nature.
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When one understands the bad consequences of those 10 types of micca ditthi, one has the ability to CONSCIOUS THINKING (vaci sankhara) WITH THAT MINDSET. Then one’s mind becomes less burdened and one starts feeling the first stages of niramisa sukha.
- First one realizes that it is unfruitful AND dangerous to engage in actions, speech, and thoughts (vaci sankhara), that could lead to births in the apayas.
So, I hope you can see the difference between the “right thinking” at the mundane path and the Transcendental (Lokottara) Noble Path.
Of course, the details can be found in many posts throughout the website. I have been emphasizing the importance of understanding vaci sankhara; see, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
It is important to realize that Samma Sankappa are Vaci Sankhara of the “correct” or “moral” type. They get to deeper stage with the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
In effect, the two types of “right thinking” are the following:
– The vaci sankhara involved in the mundane path (understanding the laws of kamma, realizing that rebirth must be valid, etc), which makes it possible for one to get to the second stage.
– The second stage starts with vaci sankhara BASED ON understanding the unfruitfulness and dangers of EXCESS attachment to sense pleasures that could lead to rebirths in the apayas (which leads to the Sotapanna stage).
– After that there are more steps leading to higher stages of Nibbana based on deeper understanding of the Tilakkhana.Of course, those two steps are then followed by right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness (sati), and right “state of mind” (samadhi). Again, each of those are of two types, as discussed in other posts.
Tobias said: “The kusala-mula PS operates only for Ariyas, starting at the Sotapanna stage. For a normal human (a “worldling”) the akusala-mula PS is always applied. See also https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/what-is-intention-in-kamma/”
This is not right. If I implied that, I must have made a mistake. One can do kusala even before the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
We need to remember that amoha is not necessarily the same as panna, and thus anyone can act with alobha, adosa, amoha.
Tobias asked: “But an Arahant has removed all six causes (also alobha, adosa, amoha). Can I conclude that an Arahant does not have the kusala-mula PS? Then which type of PS is still executed by an Arahant?”
Good question. One can learn a lot by carefully thinking about this.
- One is born in this world due to the six root causes.
- One is born in the apayas or dugati due to bad gati arising mainly due to lobha, dosa, moha. The akusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts take place with these three root causes.
- One is born in the remaining “good realms” or sugati due to good gati due to alobha, adosa, amoha. The kusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts take place with these three root causes.
- Therefore, NEITHER of the PS cycles operate for an Arahant. If either one operates, that would lead to making new kamma and new bhava and more rebirths.
- For those who are into Abhidhamma, a citta vithi always starts with an external sense input due to a past kamma, i.e., due to a kamma vipaka. So, an Arahant will have sense inputs, and experience the vipaka during the first stag of the citta vithi (those citta before the vottapana (“V”) citta in the citta vithi; see #15 of “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna“.
- A decision is made at the vottapana citta automatically (based on one’s gati) on how to respond to the sense input. Then appropriate javana citta will run, and new kamma will be done.
- But an Arahant has removed ALL gati, and as we discussed above, his/her javana citta will have no kammic power.
- Furthermore, it is essential that one stay away from dasa akusala (and thus minimize akusala-mula PS), and also to CULTIVATE kusala-mula PS.
- That is Anapana (Satipatthana). And that in the long run will lead to cultivation of panna (wisdom), and to the Arahant stage via four intermediate stages.
- All six root causes are eliminated at the pinnacle of panna, at the Arahant phala moment.
Yes. An Arahant‘s citta vithi will still have the 7 javana citta. However, they don’t have any kammic energy.
It is to be noted that it is those javana cittas that that provide power to body muscles to do physical work, and even speech. That is in addition to kammic energy in them.
For example, when you lift an extra heavy package or when pushing a stalled car you give a bit more “oomph” to those javana citta.
In other words, a javana citta may impart kammic and physical energy. An Arahant‘s javana citta provides only physical energy for necessary physical work and speech.
However, that physical energy is only a small fraction of the energy needed, for example to lift a package. Most of the energy comes from the food we eat. The energy of javana citta only sends a message to the brain. That is why one is unable to do much physical work when physically weak.
I started writing and it got longer and longer!
Yes, Siebe. Your above descriptions are mostly correct. Specifically:
“I have understood, but correct me if i am wrong, that the javana citta’s of an arahant are not akusala anymore but also not kusala.”
Correct. Arahant’s citta can never be akusala; they are not kusala either (because there are no “ku” or defilements to get rid of “sala”). But they can be punna kamma. See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“. They are called “kriya citta”, which just lead to actions.
“Behaviour based on gati is Always reactivity and cannot be called noble.”
Yes. An Arahant has removed all gati (for the same reasons that he/she does not generate any kusala/akusala citta mentioned above).
But an Arahant may still have some kammically neutral habitual actions. A young Arahant jumping over mud puddles mentioned in the Tipitaka is one good example. Another Arahant actually could not help uttering “rough speech” out of samsaric habits. But there was no javana power in that speech. This is why we cannot judge other people; they only know that they did not have bad intentions (no dosa cetasika in those cittas).
@y not: This is why I say one should follow the Path step-by-step. Don’t worry about not loving your children, because that is not going to happen any time soon. Just focus on first getting to a stage of “peace of mind” by staying away from dasa akusala, and getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi. That is, if you agree with my explanations.
Buddha dhamma can be very deep; one can read posts in the latter subsections of the “Living Dhamma” section and see that. But most will not be able to fully comprehend those. One should start at the first subsections, and other sections at the website: “User’s Guide to Pure Dhamma Website“.
It is of course up to each individual. I am not going to comment any more on this issue. It is pointless to have this abstract discussion.
It is impossible for one starting on the Path to understand the mind of an Arahant. One may even get discouraged, because that is not what a normal human envisions as “happiness” (i.e., sense pleasures). But what the Buddha said is that it is those sense pleasures that lead to suffering. That is contradictory to normal logic of a human. That is why the Buddha said: “This Dhamma has never been known the world” or “pubbe ananussutasu Dhammesu“.
The problem is that most people don’t want to start at the beginning either. I always say, one has to learn to basic addition before trying to learn calculus; one could waste a lot of time trying to do that. But in a way, I am glad that we had this discussion, so that anyone interested can read through the above posts, and see arguments with different point-of-views. No need to go through this again!
I also know that there are at least a few who have comprehended this, and are pursuing the Path correctly.
@y not: First, what I see is what you see at the forum. I can delete existing posts, but if a post cannot be seen I cannot do anything about it. I have deleted those other posts you made about a missing post. They clutter the board. Please make sure to type the post in a word processor so that you can re-post if it does not get posted for some reason. That has never happened to me, so I don’t know why it happened to you.
You said: “For myself, the hard bit, not so much to understand, but to accept, is that even doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned.”
Who said that “doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned“? Did I say that or did the Buddha say that? I cannot imagine ANYONE sane saying something like that.
You said: “As I read Siebe, what I think he means is that when a Buddha or Arahant or even anyone else with the gati to do good and distributes Metta all around, he does that automatically, meaning HE HAS NO CHOICE. If you do something because you have no choice, then where is the merit?”
If you do good things automatically ALL THE TIME, you have attained Nibbana. There is no need to accrue any more merits at that stage. However, Arahants keep on doing punna kamma or such such deeds, simply because that is the right thing to do.
One needs free will to choose between acts that lead to suffering and those lead to happiness. Once one attains Arahanthood, one has attained permanent happiness. Why would one need to have choice at that stage?
This is a problem with philosophers. They are not focused on the real issue, but on nonsense like choice, free will etc. That is because they don’t have any idea about Nibbana or ultimate happiness. There is a difference between NEED for free will (which a normal human ALWAYS has), and NOT NEEDING free choice when one gets to the pinnacle (one has reached there by MAKING the right choices); one will NEVER do the wrong thing at that stage.
Siebe said: “Isn’t all re-active behaviour a kind of delusion?”.
I do not understand why people try to make things complicated than necessary.
Whether automatic or not, anything related to dasa akusala are bad and should not be done. How hard is it to understand that? If that is not right, tell me why not.Siebe said: :”I understand an arahant or Buddha does not automatically”
Where did you see that? Of course, a Buddha or an Arahant would do things right automatically. They have removed their bad gati/asavas by the process that I described above. So, even their mano sankhara (that arise automatically) are without blemish.
Siebe said: “The ultimate goal, at least that’s how i understand this, is not to do automatically good by force of habit,but to end such forceful behaviour.”
Tell me why you do not want to “good things automatically”? What is wrong with that? This is the strangest thing I have ever heard! What is the point of that? Why would anyone ever want to stop doing good things???
“My questions is when you reflect on the Dhamma, time to time, your mind wanders to the people who might have offended the Dhamma. And me being very attached to this teaching, there is a friction. Has anybody overcomed such situations.”
I have. I do not worry about all those who don’t believe in Dhamma: laws of kamma, rebirth, apayas, etc. AND how to stop future suffering (understanding the causes of suffering and getting rid of those causes).
Thinking about them can generate bad thoughts and those are bad for ONESELF. Remember that those are bad vaci sankhara too. Such thoughts do not benefit oneself OR others.
What one CAN DO is to help those who are interested in Dhamma. That is all one can do: “Attā Hi Attanō Nāthō“. One is one’s own refuge. Othrers can only help.
The only way to help those who do not pay attention (who are ignorant of Dhamma) is to do metta bhavana.
