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@Siebe: Thanks for the nice summary.
However, it must be kept in mind that some of the translations can be improved. For example, one of the above (SN 48.2-3) is discussed in “Seeing danger in the five faculties“.
Siebe said: “But i understand you think ‘seeing the danger’ in those five faculties refers to the understanding that they weaken at old age, so one has to make effort while still young.”
Yes. The adinava stage is where you see more unpleasant things (because the sankata is decaying), and of course as one gets to the end (nissarana stage, like the old couple in the story) dangers increase.
For example, I am in my adinava stage, but I can still function well, despite increasing discomforts. Of course, dangers become more apparent as one gets to the nissarana stage.
@Atlas: Sorry. I do not know the name of the sutta. I got this information from a recorded discourse by my late teacher, Waharaka Thero. He did not quote the sutta.
If I come across it, I will post it here. But hopefully someone at the forum may know which sutta it is. Yes. It should be in the Pali Canon.
The post SengKiat suggested to answer Siebe‘s question is good.
I just wanted to clarify it a bit more, because I think this is important.
The sutta is “Dutiya Ssotāpanna Sutta (SN 48.3)“, and is short: “Pañcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni. Katamāni pañca? Saddhindriyaṃ, vīriyindriyaṃ, satindriyaṃ, samādhindriyaṃ, paññindriyaṃ. Yato kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako imesaṃ pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti—ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako sotāpanno avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’ti“.
Translated: “Bhikkhus, there are five indriyas: faith, effort, mindfulness (sati), samadhi, and wisdom (panna). A Noble Person who fully understands the nature of matter (yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti) and thus that those five indriya go through the assada (peak stage), adinava (decay stage), and the nissarana (destruction stage) is definitely a Sotapanna, and will not fall from that attainment”.
There is a deeper understanding here, that involves the five stages of a sankata: udayangama, attangama, assada, adinava, nissarana. The above verse skipped the first two stages, but it is clear that is what is meant.
The link that SengKiat has given is only the introduction of a whole section: “Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana“.
The key point is that a given person (just like any sankata) undergoes those five stages, which in this life means one’s physical body. Even though the mental body (gandhabba) could still be in early stages of its human bhava, the physical body ages and dies.
In particular, the brain function starts degrading after the middle age. The five indriya also start degrading as the brain degrades. This is something many people seem to disregard. One’s concentration, energy, and brain capacity will decrease with age, and thus all five indriya will go down in strength and of course will die with the physical body.
There is a sutta that emphasizes the importance of cultivating the Path before getting too old. Once the Buddha was travelling with bhikkhus and showed them an old couple begging in the street. They had been very rich but had lost all their wealth and were now quite old and weak. The Buddha told the monks that they both had the capacity to attain higher magga phala if they made an effort in their young age. Even if they started at the middle age, he told them, they could have attained the Sotapanna stage. But now they both were very weak, and had run out of time.
This is really an important point. We need to make as much progress as possible while our brains are still functioning well.
At a deeper level, the understanding is tied to the true nature of matter (yathā bhūta) that exists in this world, one is said to have the yathābhūta ñāna. See: “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean“.
Siebe said: “Even killing, stealing, lying, i would not say this cannot be done with any good intentions.”
I am surprised that you have read so many suttas and have not grasped the basics of Buddha Dhamma. In a way, I should not be surprised because Buddha Dhamma is being treated like philosophy these days. Each one tries to transform Buddha Dhamma to one’s own likings and biases. Secular Buddhists do not like rebirth, for example. But I have not seen that many who doubt that dasa akusala are inherently bad.
To quote from the “Sammā Diṭṭhi Sutta (MN 9)“: “Yato kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako akusalañca pajānāti, akusalamūlañca pajānāti, kusalañca pajānāti, kusalamūlañca pajānāti—ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako sammādiṭṭhi hoti,..”
Translated: ““When, friends, a Noble disciple understands the unwholesome (akusala) and the root of the unwholesome (lobha, dosa, moha), the wholesome (kusala) and the root of the wholesome (alobha, adosa, amoha), in that way he is one of right view,..”.
I am closing this topic too. Please keep in mind that this forum is not for philosophical discussions.
The benefits of staying away from dasa akusala need to experienced, not debated.
This is what I have tried to explain at the first several posts in the “Living Dhamma” section. The basis of the Satipatthana meditation is the verse “ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam“, that appears over and over in all sections of the sutta.
The above verse basically says to experience the cooling down the fires in the mind (atapi), by staying away from excess greed and hate (which also requires getting rid of the ten types of micca ditthi); see, “Satipatthāna Sutta – Structure“.
Abhijja (abhi + icca) and domanassa (do + manasa) are two critical akusala done by the mind, based on micca ditthi, the third one done by the mind. When greed and hate are controlled, others done by body and speech can be controlled. Of course, all dasa akusala are removed only at the Arahant stage.
There are many posts at the website (especially in the “Moral Living and Fundamentals” and “Living Dhamma” sections that discuss the importance of a good knowledge of dasa akusala as a pre-requisite for Buddha Dhamma.
Siebe said: “I do not agree stress-release comes with staying away from dasa akusala.”
This is getting to be a philosophical discussion. This forum is not a platform for philosophy, where people just go back and forth trying to push their views.
I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything. Just explaining what the Buddha taught according to the Tipitaka. I would be happy to discuss any incompatibilities that exist within the website or with the Tipitaka.
I have tried to explain over and over that Buddha Dhamma is based on getting away from dasa akusala. You don’t need to accept that, but then this website or the forum will not be any use for you and discussions like this will not be useful to others either.
Trying to understand Buddha’s message without realizing the consequences of dasa akusala, is like trying to learn multiplication without learning addition. I am getting tired of saying this over and over.
I am closing this topic. Please be considerate to others, and keep this in mind if you have other questions and want to open a new topic on a different subject.
Vilaskadival said: “I feel that apart from Kamma and Kamma vipaka, the body pain or pleasure (dukkha vedana and sukha vedana) are conditioned by niyama as under…..”.
I know this a well-established concept. However, the problem lies at the incorrect explanations of the five niyama. I have briefly discussed this under #2 in the post,”What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.
Basically, all other four niyama (or principles or unchanging universal laws) help enforce the kamma niyama.
Kamma (what is done with the mind), while not deterministic (otherwise Nibbana will be impossible to attain), is a pre-requisite for anything to happen. For example, dhamma niyama is basically, Tilakkhana, Paticca Samuppada, etc. Citta niyama deals with fundamentals of how citta vithi operate (17 cittas in a pancadvara vithi, sobhana and asobhana cetasika, etc). Bija niyama is how kamma bija bring results under suitable conditions (which involves dhamma niyama with Pattana Dhamma). Utu niayama deals with the viparinama nature of a sankata. These are all inter-related.
I am looking for relevant suttas, but found only this one on dhamma niyama: “Uppādā Sutta (AN 3.136)” so far. It starts with “Uppādā vā, bhikkhave, tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā..”.
Translated: “Bhikkhus, whether there is a Tathagata (Buddha) is present in this world or not, all sankhara always have anicca nature (that is a dhamma niyama)…”.It is always: “Mano pubbangma dhamma…”. Nothing happens without mind being a precursor. Kamma or sankhara are what we do with our minds. Also see the recent post: “Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipāka?“.
Johnny_Lim said: “I associate our kamma and vipaka to the 2 sides of a coin. The coin, being our 5 khandhas. As long as we exist, we are the coin that has these 2 sides.”
Yes. That is concise statement of the issue.
I agree with the rest of Johnny’s comment too. The only thing is that one first needs to realize that it is unfruitful take the five khandhas as “mine”; that is the Sotapanna stage and cannot be done without some grasping of Tilakkhana.
Even a Sotapanna only knows that it is unfruitful (that is the first stage or the right vision (“dassanena pahatabba“). Actually experiencing that is done in arriving at higher stages. Only an Anagami has seen (experienced) the “cooling down” by getting rid of the cravings for sense pleasures.
It is not easy to get rid of the sanna of a “me”, and that is reduced by stages and it completely removed only at the Arahant stage. Even an Anagami has cravings to learn and enjoy Dhamma (and may be also for jhanic pleasures).
It is easy to say “there is no me” or “there is no-self”, and there are a lot of people who meditate by just reciting something like that. That is just a waste of time.
There is always going to be “self” (not a permanent “self” but a “dynamic self” who keeps changing gathi; see, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“) as long as one one values even a single thing in this world. This is a statement to contemplate on. That should indicate how hard it is to get to the Arahant stage.
Siebe said: “The moralist in us prefers to see kamma as the root cause of everything wished for of not wished for. The wise in us prefers to talk about bad and right views.”
Those two are inter-connected. A moralist is one with right views. Bad kamma are done with wrong views, and good kamma are done with right views.
But the key point in Buddha Dhamma is that “Samma Ditthi” does not merely mean “mundane right views”.
It is deeper, and includes a comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta.
P.S. I just realized that you may not have seen “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart” and the discussion referred to there.
Here is another way to look at this issue.
Siebe said: “There is no car apart from it wheels, chassis etc.”
This simile of Ven. Nagasena can only provide a crude analogy. A human is more than just physical body parts.
One key idea missing in the above analogy is that while a car has no gathi, a human does. These five khandhas are deeply related to each other. For example, our physical body in this life is pretty much compatible with our four other khandhas, unlike the parts of a car.
If we cultivate deva sankhara by engaging in meritorious deeds, speaking accordingly, and thinking accordingly, our four mental aggregates will slowly change in that direction. If, at the end of this human bhava, we have turned our gathi to that of a deva, then the next birth is likely to be a deva. Then our body will be drastically changed to that of a deva.
If one cultivates sankhara appropriate for a dog, then the next bhava is likely to lead to be a “dog bhava” with a body of a dog, and thoughts of a dog, etc.
“Deva gathi” will yield a deva and a “dog gathi” will yield a dog. No matter what gathi we cultivate, the existence that we get is only temporary. We do not know what will happen in future existences (bhava). We need to try to at least get to the Sotapanna stage in this life, to get out of this recurring process.
We are not just our body parts, but our gathi play a key role. While our gathi are is constant flux, they are always there in some form to keep us bound in this rebirth process.
The only way to get rid of the five khandhas is to remove ALL gathi or defilements (dasa akusala, dasa samyojana). This needs to be done in steps though.
First, we need to understand the importance of the worst of the dasa akusala: killing, stealing, too much attachment to sensual pleasures (which includes sexual misconduct), then those done by speech.
Then we need to take steps clean up our vaci sankhara (conscious thoughts) to be compatible with the above.
However, the “apayagami gathi” cannot ever be PERMANENTLY removed until one starts comprehending “anicca, dukkha, anatta“. That is the next step.
To be at least be feed from the apayas, we need to get rid of “apayagami gathi”. That cannot be done without comprehending Tilakkhana.
That is the special message of the Buddha. That has to be learned from the Tipitaka. No one can do that on one’s own, no matter how intelligent one is. So, when Siebe says: “This cannot be learned from books”, that is not correct.
This is because while we can live with a peace of mind by living a moral life, or become a deva or a brahma or a human in the next life by cultivating appropriate sankhara, we have no control of what may happen in the future lives.
If we get born into a “bad environment” and start cultivating sankhara of an animal or even a “hell being” by joining a gang of killers, then the next birth could in an apaya. In fact, any living being existing right now has been through all those realms in the past. This is the hardest point to understand for most people.
Inflib said: “I read in one of your posts that the gandhabba has control of body movements, like a driver of a car.”
This may be hard for you to imagine, but gandhabba is you. You control your physical body, just like a drive controls her car.
This is why when the gandhabba (mental body) comes out of the physical body during some heart operations, the physical body is sometimes declared “dead” by the surgeons, but a little later gandhabba re-enters the body and the body becomes live. You may want to read a book by a heart surgeon on his case studies: ““Consciousness Beyond Life”, by Pim van Lommel (2010)”.
Also, the post: “Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)“.2. You said, “strange body twitchings..”. These could also be due to neurological problems. The brain does play a role in controlling the body, on the commands of the gandhabba: “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body”.
But sometimes, the brain may have “slight defects” causing such inadvertent twitchings. You may want to see a neurologist to see whether it is that.
3. You said, “I also have these interesting eye lights that move around the perimeter of my vision. They correspond to the Dharma wheel by flashing and circling (I.e., circling right, 5 o’clock to 3 o’clock = wrong action, wrong speech), typically white light.”
The mind can create all sorts of illusions. People who do breath meditation see these things all the time. My suggestion is to ignore them.
3. You said, “One other thing that is probably worth mentioning, I feel like a million watt lightbulb. Off the surface of the body is radiating energy. I’ve felt it turn on like a light switch a couple times when I woke up out of deep sleep, otherwise it’s on all the time. It moves outward from the heart center. Is it possible that this is the gandhabba extending outward?”
It is possible that it is due to gandhabba. A series of books have been written by Robert Monroe. In his first book, “Journeys Out of the Body: The Classic Work on Out-of-Body Experience (1992)” he described his first OBE experience when he realized that his hand went through the floor. Obviously, it was not his physical hand, but the hand of the gandhabba. Later, his whole mental body came out of the body, and there are many accounts of his “out-of-body” travels. However, unlike those with abhinna powers, he could not control where he went, but of course he could always come back to his body when he wanted to.
In his book, “Travels”, famous author of the Jurassic Park, Michael Crichton (1988, p. 307) mentions his ability to “shift my awareness out of my body and move it around the bedroom”, and he says, “..I didn’t think anything about it… I assumed that anybody could do it..”.
So, don’t be frightened if you do come out of your physical body. Apparently there some who do it on a regular basis:
Canadian student has “out of body experiences” whenever she wantsInflib said: ” I’m able to communicate with my gandhabba and she’s trying to stop me from continuing on the Path. For example, Arhanthood will create the fertile ground for a major catastrophe..”
Actually, it is not your gandhabba doing that. Your gandhabba is inside your body, and is essentially your “being”. The physical body is just a temporary residence for the gandhabba, the mental body. There are many posts on this but here are a couple: “Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)- Introduction” and “Our Mental Body – Gandhabba“.
I would encourage you to use the “Search” button at top right to find more posts, and also to read the links given in the above posts.
There are many unseen beings in our world. There is evidence that there are such “good beings” and “bad beings”. See:
“What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?”Both these types can try to stop one from following Buddha Dhamma, as discussed in the above post. If you can give some details of your experience (if you are comfortable in doing that), I and others may be able to provide some input.
It is possible that more readers have had similar experiences. Before starting the discussion forum, I got several emails describing their experiences.
I just published the post, “Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipaka?”, as promised.
Unless one takes time to go through that background material, this post may not be fully understood. Learning Dhamma (at this deeper level) REQURIES an effort.
Buddha Dhamma is not like anything that we have been exposed to, and some concepts may not be obvious to everyone. As I keep saying, do not expect to learn pure Dhamma just by reading posts. Practice (from a base level) is an essential part. Understanding how dasa akusala (and the ten types of micca ditthi) can defile a mind and cover it, is critical.
Also, please don’t take these comments as an indication of frustration on my part. I fully understand different people have different levels of understanding (that is why there are posts at the website ranging from basic to deep levels).
I will do whatever it takes to help out a motivated person (and I do know all those who have commented so far have the desire to learn).
Please do not just state what you believe or not. That is irrelevant. My goal is not to convince anyone of anything. My goal is to explain Buddha Dhamma per Tipitaka, and its original commentaries.
It is up to each person to decide whether these interpretations make sense.
Rehashing same ideas again and again, as I see in other discussion forums, does not serve any good for anyone. I will only respond if points in the post as directly quoted and shown to be incorrect.Of course, there could be other explanations (more correctly other ways of looking at the issue) in some cases (as we have seen in discussions so far), and those would be valid comments. What is unproductive is to say what one just believes, without proof from the Tipitaka.
Finally, something that I have learned by experience: expecting to grasp deep concepts without a good grasp of fundamentals is like taking a college level course without going to primary school. I wasted a lot of time before encountering desanas of Waharaka Thero, because I did not know some fundamentals (not only anicca, dukkha, anatta, but a few more basic things like bhava, jati, and gandhabba). I say this with a lot of compassion, not with agitation or disrespect. So, please don’t hold back from making legitimate comments.
Akvan said: “So I don’t think that the phrase; ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ (yadanattā taṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti) specifically refers to sakkayaditti. However, the basic / fundamental understanding of this will lead to the eradication of sakkayaditti. I guess at the ultimate level, the understanding of this leads to the eradication of Maana (asameemana).”
I agree. The vision or understanding starts at the Sotapanna Anugami stage, but it is truly comprehended only at the Arahant stage.
Also see: “Sakkaya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View?“.Siebe said: “I know it is not described that way in the sutta’s, but i belief the view “i am a human’ is a sakkaya ditthi”.
I did not say, “i am a human’ is a sakkaya ditthi”. Please read the above carefully.
What I said was: “This is really about sakkaya ditthi: whether there is anything in this world to be worthwhile to be called “mine” and to do immoral things to maintain those “things”.”
This is a fine point to grasp.
