[Anonymous]

Hello All,

I understand anicca as the inability of the mind to be aware (understand) of the constant flux/decay/destruction/boredom and thus one suffers b/c one wants it to be as one wants it, not as it is. Therefore, wanting anything causing suffering.

As one proceeds on the Path and comprehends, acts, speaks and thinks with the anicca (dukkha and anatta as well) nature, will it effect the kamma vipaka experienced in day-to-day life?

For example, if one has purified their mind to the state of an Sotapanna/Sakadagami/Anagami will the living conditions (kamma vipaka that arises) change accordingly without significant effort (that which would cause more kamma beeja, “wanting”)? Or is it likely that more opportunities would arise for better living conditions that would be conducive to one’s state of mind? Or is it necessary to create more kamma beeja in order to change one’s daily state of affairs?

With metta,
Donna

[Embodied]

Hi…

I would like to help yet given my status here, I can only respond with questions as the following ones, mainly related to your first paragraph only :

1. Perhaps it’s possible to reduce such “inability” of the mind to perceive and cope with Anicca ? (I suppose it is…but i’m an incorrigible optimistic).
2. And to reduce such inability and given the multiple interconnections between Anicca, Anatta & Dukkha, the more natta one achieves instead of anatta the better one will cope with anicca and the more anicca will become nicca ?

3.Any unfavorable kamma dynamic will be reduced in so far as 1. and 2. are feasible…?
In terms of pratical training one thing that works astonishing well (in my case) is contemplating anicca causes & effects in a state of relaxation relatively to my life experiences . And i have “excellent” anicca examples from the past with which to learn a lot…

Your questions seem to me extremely interesting, thank you !

[Lal]

Inflib (Donna) said: “As one proceeds on the Path and comprehends, acts, speaks and thinks with the anicca (dukkha and anatta as well) nature, will it effect the kamma vipaka experienced in day-to-day life?”.

You may want to read the post, “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.

Basically, some vipaka can be overcome, but not all. Even the Buddha could not overcome some. We had discussed this before, but I cannot locate that particular discussion.

Nibbana is about totally eliminating FUTURE suffering beyond this life: A Sotapanna would not be reborn in the apayas; a Sakadagami would not be reborn at or below human realm; An Anagami would be prevented from suffering in kama loka, so will not be reborn in kama loka; an Arahant will not be reborn anywhere in 31 realms. Any birth anywhere in the 31 realm will be subjected to suffering at some level.

A type of suffering that goes away completely for an Arahant in this life is those due to “samphassa ja vedana” (self-induced MENTAL suffering). It will be removed partially for other Nobles depending on how much “san” or defilements have been removed from their minds; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“. Even before magga phala, this could give rise to “niramisa sukha” at various levels.

If this does not explain, we can discuss any more remaining issues.

[y not]

Hello Inflib
Hello Lal:

I was tempted to comment on (rather than answer) your question when no replies were given yet, but I did not want you and others to be in any way misled even by that. So I waited.

The first ‘answer’ that came to mind was: if the kamma vipaka is overwhemingly strong, the results will take effect as soon as the right conditions arise. Otherwise…’ As one proceeds on the Path and comprehends, acts, speaks and thinks with the anicca (dukkha and anatta as well) nature ‘ those are in themselves causes and MAY bring effects even to the present situation(s); if not, then they will do so certainly later on when the right conditions arise.

Now having read Lal’s answer and again read the post “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?, there reference is made, in #5 ,to
‘ “Transfer of Merits (Pattidāna)- How Does that Happen?” and “5. Ariya Metta Bhavana (Loving Kindness Meditation)“. In the first post, that to do with Pattidana, there is benefit for the other because merits are actually transferred to him/her. In Ariya Metta Bhavana, how is the receiver benefitted? IS there a receiver, receivers? Here, the loving-kindness, the Metta, wells up in the one doing the Bhavana,the ‘state of overall well-being and oneness’ and all the positive and beneficial effects of it would all appear to be for the meditator. Or is it otherwise? Or, again, is it like I say AND also otherwise?

Crudely stated, Metta Bhavana WOULD appear to be selfish. I have been practicing it and there is no doubting the benefits FOR MYSELF. More important issues follow from all of this, but the answer may make most of that irrelevant. (….an answer like: treading the Path IS a selfish thing; Nibbana is a selfish goal..etc, in that it is ARIYA Metta Bhavana, a Bhavana for Ariyas, and an Ariya’s ONLY goal is Nibbana,clearly a selfish goal, while as to Pattidana, no reference is made whether it is Ariya or riya, so the latter must be implied).

y not

[Lal]

y not said: “ In Ariya Metta Bhavana, how is the receiver benefitted? IS there a receiver, receivers? Here, the loving-kindness, the Metta, wells up in the one doing the Bhavana,the ‘state of overall well-being and oneness’ and all the positive and beneficial effects of it would all appear to be for the meditator. Or is it otherwise? Or, again, is it like I say AND also otherwise?”

The transmitter is the mana indriya of the sender, and the receiver is the mana indriya of the one who is benefiting. For those who need more information, see #9 of: “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“, and the posts referred there.

Modern day radio signals can be a good analogy. When one speaks, that energy is converted to an electromagnetic signal (wave) at the microphone, and that is transferred over a long distance. At the receiving end, there must be a receiver set to match the frequency of the incoming signal (otherwise, the signal would not be received). Then that signal is again converted back to a sound wave and is heard there.

When we CONSCIOUSLY think (vaci sankhara, i.e, whether spoken out loud or just talking to oneself), the javana power emits energy from the mana indriya. That energy can transmit to “ten thousand world systems” like ours.

Then it can be received by any being in that range WITH THE RIGHT MINDSET. That means, that being must have the “samanantara” to receive that signal and to benefit from it; see, “Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya“.

This is a complex process, but that is the gist of it.

By the way, that is how one (with abhinna power or punna iddhi) communicates with other beings.

y not said: “Crudely stated, Metta Bhavana WOULD appear to be selfish.”

When one gets to a certain stage, and realizes the dangers of the rebirth process, it is done automatically. One can see how much danger one has avoided, and one would want that for all beings, not just close relatives/friends or even just humans, but for ALL beings. It develops gradually.

“Dukkhan bhayattena” (“dukkha characteristic because it is frightening”) means when one truly comprehends dukkha, one will really see the dangers and will see how scary it is to have future births. This is realized in stages as one makes progress: first dangers in the apayas, then in the kama loka, and then anywhere in the 31 realms (well into the Anagami stage).

P.S. However, we should not focus on the suffering. We need to realize that it is the assada or the CRAVING FOR sense pleasures that are really the ROOT CAUSE of suffering. This is the hardest part to understand; see, “Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana“.

I hope I am not dumping too many things at once. But, I want to emphasize that one should not get hung up on contemplating on suffering. The Buddha pointed out the truth of suffering (that it exists), but more importantly, he showed the way to stop it from arising. And that is to see the dangers of sense pleasures. First step is to see the dangers in EXCESS sense pleasures.

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Lal,

“When we CONSCIOUSLY think (vaci sankhara, i.e, whether spoken out loud or just talking to oneself), the javana power emits energy from the mana indriya. That energy can transmit to “ten thousand world systems” like ours.”

I recalled one of your posts which mentioned that according to Buddha Dhamma, we are all alone in this Universe. Is multiverse implied here?

[Anonymous]

Thank you y not for bringing up these topics and thank you Lal for the very informative answers! So very helpful!!!

So grateful!
Donna

[y not]

Thank you Donna. You are most welcome.

Thank you Lal,

Your reply is much as I expected. I had read the relevant posts,and more than once, so nothing new there. That is not to detract though from your kindness in taking the time to answer, let that be quite clear.

Of late I have been thinking of the apayas a lot, and thinking is putting it mildly. Hence my digging into posts that concern processes and ways to eliminate them or, at least, to not let them come to fruition for myself and for others. Obviously ‘others’ has two meanings:those I know and love, and all other sentient beings in the whole of existence, whose suffering cannot be any different from that felt by those I love. I realise that this dichotomy can only be due EXCLUSIVELY to attachment, and as I cannot recall past lives, the attachment can, in my case, be only to those I have known in this life.

“Dukkham bhayattena” – This phrase has been occuring to me often these last few days, and like that, in Pali. This dread of the apayas, the niraya in particular, made me go back to instances in my life where I acted, spoke or even had thoughts that may lead there. There surely will be more, many more, rooted in previous lives, and that is one reason I have long stopped wishing I could see into those. The other reason is that if I came across a life in which my lot was better than it is in this one, regret would follow: ‘then I was so, now I am only this!’; if worse,there would be disappointment to various degrees, if not horror and incredulity: ‘what? I was that?’. In either case, no instruction would be forthcoming about what action to take NOW. And this is my main concern: how to avoid those states for myself and others,if it were possible, and to find ways that reconcile both objectives into one.

I have noticed that’Seeing past lives’ too has been commercialized on the internet almost to a fad. Years back a female friend of mine said to me enthusiastically: ‘you know what? I was Cleopatra!’ It is always someone popular, a king, a queen, a rock star..It is amazing how people do not see through the game. But life is no game. And the realization that WORSE may be on the way….

I heartily welcome any replies…comments, rather.
Lal’s reply is quite satifactory.

y not

[Johnny_Lim]

“It is amazing how people do not see through the game. But life is no game. And the realization that WORSE may be on the way….”

Life is a game we all play to lose.

[y not]

Johnny:

I was refering specifically to the game of charging money for telling people who they were in previous lives by: “It is amazing how people do not see through the game’

You made a life lesson of it.

thank you.

y not

[Johnny_Lim]

No problem y not! :)

Another of my favourite tag line is that of Tower Records – “No Music No Life”. I cringed at it after I have encountered true dhamma. The spiritual path is the opposite of worldly path. The same message “No Music No Life” can have very different meaning, depending on who is perceiving the message. We can substitute music with any other sense objects/pleasures and the message will always be true.

[Embodied]

It’s not because I listen to some music that I get attached to it. That I develop a cling towards it. And who says music says anything else. You just have to be moderate which implies more insight and/or will power than totally abstain.

[Anonymous]

Johnny, “No Music No Life”, good one! I for one, dislike music. Between the lyrics and melodies (even classical music) they are just a distraction from mindfulness.

[Embodied]

@Inflib,

Then include it in your mindfulness ?

[y not]

Embodied:

My understanding is what Donna means is that practically anything that comes in the way of mindfulness is a hindrance. I do not see how you can ‘include a distraction in your mindfulness’ when that very distraction is the obstacle to that mindfulness.

Or did you mean something else?

What I have found out, for my part, is that when a possible distraction is already there (the tv or the radio on) it does not ACT as a distraction. Most times by far,I can carry on with my ‘mindfulness’ as if there were complete silence all around. No effort is needed – I do not have to turn the tv or radio off to continue being mindful.

y not

[Embodied]

y not,

“I do not have to turn the tv or radio off to continue being mindful.”

Mindful of what (else) ? Of your mind’s content ? In the same context i see at least two alternatives :
1. I want to watch the TV so i give priority to such but without elaborating/constructing (abisankhara?) on it.
2. I don’t give priority to ANYTHING i.e. now i’m watching the program, now i’m reading a magazine, now i’m getting up from the chair…DOESN’T MATTER, i try to be unceasingly mindful of myself and of the environment, whilst aware of my mind’s content in order to avoid noxious elaborations on what it’s being lived right here and now.
Contrary to what one might think this is not difficult or tiring. To be aware of yourself and of the environment moment to moment, instead of being separated from it it’s even relaxing. Anyways it’s better than being “splitted” i.e. thinking about job problems (just an example…) whilst peeling off potatoes…

Of course this isn’t about formal sessions; it’s about current everyday life…

[Embodied]

Hi all

To avoid any misunderstanding: the sati ways described in my previous comment just before this one come from Chan Buddhism. They’re a complement to my formal sessions which are totally Pure Dhamma based.

Metta

[Lal]

I am jut wondering. Do you all get any thoughts of greed/lust or anger while meditating or just at any time?

What do you do in such instances?

For example, suppose a thought comes to the mind about a person who insulted you or did some wrong to you. What do you do?

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Lal,

I do get those defiled thoughts from time to time. I will try to ignore them as much as I can. Don’t give them attention and they will usually go away on their own. For those defiled thoughts that are more difficult to deal with, I will perform self-admonishment. I will try to dictate terms with my mind and let it see the grave danger of persistently clinging on to those lustful, angry thoughts.

If I am being insulted, I will just take it as a retribution for something that I had done in my past life and at the same time train my forbearance.

[Embodied]

Hi

I don’t repress the thought, i accept it/observe while being subliminally aware of it’s intrinsic wrongness and i replace it by a positive attitude.

However sometimes the simple fact of accepting/observing without elaborating it’s enough to dissipate eventual negative feelings.

One doesn’t always have to know what to do.
Sometimes it’s enough to know what not to do.

[Lal]

Embodies said: “I don’t repress the thought, i accept it/observe while being subliminally aware of it’s intrinsic wrongness and i replace it by a positive attitude.”

I don’t think that statement makes sense.

If you accept an angry thought, how do you replace it by a positive attitude?

Aren’t you replacing the angry thought with a positive thought?

[Embodied]

Lal,

Can you always see a negative thought coming ? Anticipate its coming ? I don’t think so.
“if you accept an angry thought, how do you replace it by a positive attitude?”

There are 2 phases to consider. Phase 1: I accept it but don’t stick to it; and i accept it because i know that by repressing it by simplet willpower, it will come back stronger.
However the acceptance/ observation it’s a quite brief process…so brief that there is no time for the anger to become greater.It’s a matter of secs immediatly followed (phase 2) by the integration of a positive attitude.

The best way for me to learn better is to ask you :how do you apply satipatanna in your life moment to moment ? Since you wake up til you go to bed?

Thank you !

Metta

P.S. – the popping up of the thought is what is accepted/observed.

[Anonymous]

I had an incident happen just a couple of days ago where my male roommate was inappropriately dressed and I noticed. I’m rarely around under-dressed people. What I also noticed was the thoughts that happened subsequently and abhisankhara. The incident actually created an aversion b/c of the mind agitation and the realization that I need to move away from this type of environment.

What was good about it, was to see the thought process so clearly. I’ve been doing my best to avoid my immoral roommates, but it is clear that I need to a new home. With the new job promotion, I think it is coming soon.

Thanks so much for all your comments!
Donna

[Lal]

Embodied said: The best way for me to learn better is to ask you :how do you apply satipatanna in your life moment to moment ? Since you wake up til you go to bed?

1. Satipatthana basically means “keeping the mind focused on the task at hand”.
• When I drive, I concentrate on driving, not thinking about anything else.
• When I write do scientific work, I concentrate on that subject.
• When I do house work or eat, I am focused on getting those things done.
  Those things normally do not involve defiled thoughts or dasa akusala, but if they do I will become aware of that.
2. However, when I deal with people or when I meditate, I am ALWAYS on the lookout for any defiled thoughts arising in mind. This is when I do Anapana.
• Part of Anapana involves cultivating moral thoughts and learning Dhamma (“ana” or “taking in”).
• Equally important second part of Anapana is forcibly suppressing defiled thoughts, speech, and actions (that is the “apana” or removal part of “anapana” or “ana” + “apana”).
3. Well before we can understand deep Dhamma concepts, we need to cleanse our minds of dasa akusala. They keep popping up, sometimes unexpectedly. Such defiled thoughts keep popping up because we have a reservoir of them (called anusaya) in our minds. Our gati are closely related to those anusaya.
• These dasa akusala make our minds “burn”. Getting rid of them lead to “cooling down” of the mind and to niramisa sukha. Then it becomes easier to understand deeper Dhamma concepts like anicca, which belongs to the “ana” part of “Anapana”.
• Cleansing the mind is a step-by-step process, and Anapana is essentially how one does it.

So, that is what I do all day long. Focus on the task at hand, and try to do Anapana whenever possible AND appropriate.

4. I don’t know how many of you have read the “Bhavana (Maditation)” or the first few subsections of the “Living Dhamma” section. I really hope you have done so, in order to get this IMPORTANT FOUNDATION established.

[y not]

Lal:

In answer to your request:

When I am observing mindfulness no thoughts of greed, hate or anger arise at all as far as I remember. There is no fight going on at any time.

And by mindfulness I mean being absorbed in a Dhamma concept or doing A M Bhavana. Others may have taken what I mean by ‘mindfulness’ to be something else. If I should be using some other term (so to avoid misunderstandings) please say so.

This may not be a coincidence, for as far back as I remember, I always used to feel very angry at being interuppted when I was concentrating or immersed even in a mundane exercise, say at work. At least here I am not.

y not

[y not]

………the web page just disappeared and I was greeted with an ‘An snap’just when I hit submit (my last post)

I was V EEEEEEEEEE RY angry!!!!

I have lost entire posts I wanted to submit because of that’

[Lal]

y not said: “When I am observing mindfulness no thoughts of greed, hate or anger arise at all as far as I remember. There is no fight going on at any time.”

Later on, “………the web page just disappeared and I was greeted with an ‘An snap’just when I hit submit (my last post)

I was V EEEEEEEEEE RY angry!!!!”

This is exactly what I am talking about. It is EASY to have a peaceful mindset when one is in formal meditation. Anusaya is suppressed.

But when something drastic happens (as with the difficulty in posting), that anusaya comes to the surface. Depending on the situation, it could be greed/lust, anger, or just vicikicca (not sure how to respond and do something foolish).

We need to pay more attention to the second situation and control anger at that time. That is real Satipatthana and Anapana.

When we learn to control such outbursts, the frequency of occurrence of such events will gradually decrease. That is the whole point.

Even while in meditation, one can get all such defiled thoughts creeping to the mind, and one MUST not let them continue. Those are conscious defiled thoughts (bad vaci sankhara).

In both cases, one must think about the bad consequences of keeping such thoughts. That is the best way to get rid of them.

I hope y not will not be offended by my remarks. I am making these forceful comments out of compassion to make a difference for everyone.

[y not]

Lal:

I am all BUT offended!

Exactly as you put it: ‘it is EASY to have a peaceful mindset when one is in formal meditation. Anusaya is suppressed’

Most of these outbursts of anger I used to experience when I was still marrried. My wife was very provocative. Sometimes 15’…30′ then up blows the top. (Now I am not putting the anger in my gati down to her by any means). At one time I ended up in hospital with a dislocated finger. I punched whatever was in sight until I was tired (!)rather than hitting her, my father’s words ringing in my ear: never lay your hands on a woman!

thank you Lal;
very instructive topic

y not.

[Lal]

I just received the following email from Siebe (some of you may remember Siebe). He and I still correspond via email.

Hi Lal,

As a reaction on a forum topic.

Probably you know, but MN20 deals with how to anticipate on unwholesome thoughts.

It describes 5 methods.

1. direct the mind to another sign, a sign which is connected with wholesome emotions, such as the sign of unattractiveness while lust arises or a sign of danger in the case of sensual pleasure.
   Unwholesome thoughts arise especially in mind directed to signs like ‘attractive’, ‘no danger’, beautifull, in control, etc.
2. do unwholesome thought still arise then one must contemplate on the danger of such thoughts
3. if they still keep arising one must give them no attention, just ignore them
4. if they still keep arising or are still present one must try to calm down the thought-formation process.
   it is like wondering why one is in such a hurry and slow down oneself, slow down the thought formations
5. If this still does not work one has to forcefully suppress them and conquer bad thoughts with good mind like a strong man would do with a weaker man.

kind regards,
Siebe

Thank you, Siebe. It is a good reference and a decent translation is at:
“Vitakkasanthana Sutta: The Relaxation of Thoughts“

[y not]

Is there no way to delete a twice-entered post? My p/c is messing up’

y not

[Lal]

@y not: I already deleted your extra post.

I don’t think any of you are allowed to delete published posts. Just make sure everything is good before hitting the submit button.

[y not]

A comment on Siebe’s e-mail to Lal:

The tack that works for me, by far most times but not exactly always, is the contemplation of the futility of it: ‘this indulgence (in sensual pleasure, lustful intentions even) have you not done it for long enough?
How better are you for it all now? Contemplate on some Dhamma topic, any will do.’ Leave the scene, as it were.

I do not mean to ‘correct’ Siebe in any way. It is in fact an elaboration or a refinement to his method numbered 1. – or even only a re-statement of it in my own words.

y not

[Embodied]

I just saw Siebe’s email, thanks.

[y not]

Lal:

• ‘ For example, suppose a thought comes to the mind about a person who insulted you or did some wrong to you. What do you do?’-

Taken by the first question, I had forgotten all about this second one’. Sorry.

Now I can say that the insult or harsh words do not affect me any more. My mind goes: If there was any hatred, it was in him/her. Rather I feel compassion for him/her having this fire of hatred for me, if he/she still has it. I certainly will not ‘hate back’. In a more general sense:
one is reaponsible for what one does,( by body, speech and mind) not for what one is done to. The philosophical side to it comes easier to me by nature, but I will admit that the moral and therefore the Dhamma aspect, when that takes over, is much more effective.

y not

[Lal]

y not said: “.. My mind goes: If there was any hatred, it was in him/her. Rather I feel compassion for him/her having this fire of hatred for me, if he/she still has it.”

Exactly. One can only work to cleanse one’s own mind. If each person does that, this world will be a much better place for everyone.

[y not]

Lal:

Now it is MY turn to say; Exactly !

Thank you,
y not

[y not]

Johnny said:

“…..the javana power emits energy from the mana indriya. That energy can transmit to “ten thousand world systems” like ours.”

“…..that according to Buddha Dhamma, we are all alone in this Universe. Is multiverse implied here?”

When I come across some inconsistency I go on to see whether the inconsistency is only an apparent one. Go Lal’s post above, 29 Apr 5:08:
“…One can only work to cleanse one’s own mind.” I had the idea in my own thought-words before reading this, thus: we are alone in the sense that each must do one’s own striving oneself, even though- IT MUST FOLLOW-that a lot of Metta and pattidana is constantly reaching us (if we make ourselves open to it) from the beings in millions of planetary systems in this galaxy alone, to say nothing of those beings in the billions of other galaxies, and that is taking only this universe into account. Various Buddhas, innumerable ones, have spread the Dhamma everywhere – this planet cannot be in any way special.

The ‘excess’ that we thus accumulate in us we then throw back out for the benefit of all without distinction. If (partly) with distinction, a way will have to be found to ‘concentrate’ it and direct it so that it reaches one or other specific being anywhere. Of course the other or others will have to be open to it, collectively or individually – but I know no way of ‘forcing’ the other/s to open up to it, or for it to force its way into the other/s.

y not

[Lal]

@y not: There are no inconsistencies in Buddha Dhamma. There is only ignorance on the part of who do not yet understand Buddha Dhamma (and this is a very high percentage). We are all ignorant to some level; we must strive to get better every day.

The following are basic pillars that are critical. It may be a good idea to keep them by the side at all times.

1. There are root causes and there are conditions. One cannot give another causes (via pattidana or by any other means); one can give only conditions, so to speak.
2. The six root causes are lobha, dosa, moha and alobha, alobha, amoha.

– Moha is “covered mind” and a less potent version of it is avijja. One acts with lobha and dosa when one has moha.
– Amoha is when one acts without moha; but amoha does not necessarily mean wisdom (panna).
– When one has very little panna, one acts with moha and accumulates dasa akusala. That leads to much suffering in the lower realms.
– One acts with amoha and cultivates dasa punna kamma and dasa kusala kamma, and those lead to rebirths in the higher realms, where there is less suffering.

3. When one is on the mundane eightfold path, one learns the basic of Buddha Dhamma (punna/papa, kusala/akusala, truth of the rebirth process, etc), and that makes it possible to avoid dasa akusala and stay away from harsh sufferings.
4. However, in order to remove ALL root causes and to stop all suffering, one needs to learn the higher Dhamma (including Tilakkhana), and to see the fruitlessness and dangers in the rebirth process, including those “good realms”.
5. As I said above, one cannot remove those six root CAUSES from the minds of another. Otherwise, the Buddha would have done it for everyone.

– One can only make CONDITIONS for another to gain wisdom (panna) and to help that person remove those root causes by THEMSELVES. Again, one cannot cultivate panna of another, BUT one can teach true Dhamma to another and help that person gain wisdom.

6. I will give just a simple example to make this point. One can make another angry, greedy, etc or calm even without subtle ways like pattidana. Just “hanging out” with immoral people can make one get to a “bad mindset” and to do bad things. And the opposite is true too. Good friends/family keeps one away from trouble and make one’s life better.

– But it is ultimately up to EACH PERSON to make lasting progress by removing the six root causes, starting with the first three: lobha, dosa, moha (by staying away from dasa akusala, which includes the ten types of micca ditthi).
– I keep repeating these basic but CRITICAL things, but I am not sure how many people pay attention to these key points.

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Lal,

“Amoha is when one acts without moha; but amoha does not necessarily mean wisdom (panna).”

Does performing punna kamma fall into an Amoha category?

[Lal]

Johnny said: “Does performing punna kamma fall into an Amoha category?”

Punna kamma can be done with amoha or with panna.
Think about it. The Buddha is the one who has done the most punna kamma.
If you read the dasa punna kamma, you will see that teaching Dhamma to others is a punna kamma.

[Johnny_Lim]

Ok got it. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Hello Lal,

I’m trying to teach my kids (2 upper teen girls) Dhamma. It’s challenging to say the least. I find ways to work it in, but until recently have never gotten technical. I put a message (long text) and sent it to them (below) and only one of them responded with something like “mom, I already knew all this, you’ve told me all of this before”. I was surprised…I guess working it in in everyday terms/words/examples actually does help.

Any other thoughts on how to teach Dhamma to young people?

Text message:
Hello Girls,

I have a responsibility to you as your parent and one who understands the truth about how this world works, not only from teachings, but from personal experience. It would be totally immoral of me to not have at least tell you the basics. It’s your choice as to how, when or if you apply it to your life.

Over the past 7+ years you’ve seen me in a concentrated effort to figure this out, with all kinds of weirdness and failures. The biggest failure was the inability to continually provide you with a stable home and I’m very sorry for that. I hope to pay back this debt before I die in some way. Instability is a part of life in this universe that’s not within anyone’s control and this is the nature of this world. Look around you, you’ll see it everywhere, especially in older people when bodies are open to a whole array of disease, decay and lives unfulfilled.

Some call it chaos, continuous change, impermanence, but what you have to be good with is nothing in this world can provide you with permanent happiness or peace. So, how to make the best of what you’re dealt with in this life so as to set yourself up with a potentially better next life…the key is, DO MORAL. That is, live, act, speak and consciously think morally. Kamma is a how everything comes back to you, energy in, energy out, but with interest on the repayment side, good or bad.

What is moral living…here are the big culprits to avoid:
1.Killing, not only people, but animals too. Tell me you can’t see that animals suffer when, for instants, a fish dandles from a hook or a dog is hit. Fish don’t shed tears, but they have feelings.
2.Stealing, that is taking what is not given. Many consider “borrowing” not stealing, but if it wasn’t given to you to temporarily use, it’s stealing.
3.Sexual misconduct, is sexual relationships with other people that are already in a relationship with another, deviant practices and even intent to do something is immoral. Intent is immoral and counts in negative energy even if you never execute in any of these 10 items. Ignorance like in the court of law will not keep you out of jail (i.e., accumulating bad kamma/energy).
4.Lying, no explanation needed here. This one’s easy to see, liars flock together like birds of a feather.
5.Slandering, making false and damaging statements about someone or a company, etc. Anytime you hurt another it’s immoral and will come back you with interest.
6.Harsh speech, yelling, abusive, rude, short or lewd speaking not only out loud, but in your head as well about someone or yourself. You can hurt yourself here too.
7.Gossiping or frivolous talk, this is a tough one, but people get hurt as you know and it comes back to bite…hard.
8.Greed, for other’s belongings or what one wants beyond what one needs. This one is huge which leads to corruption of the mind and hatred.
9.Hatred, leads to killing and the niraya (the worst realm to be reborn into) where suffering is constant and you’re continually be reborn there until the kammic energy is gone which is usually aeons.
10.Wrong views (aka, mica ditthi), this means having the wrong beliefs about the following:
•Giving, generosity and caring has no merit.
•Being grateful, responding in kind, repaying debts for what others have done for oneself has no merit.
•Respecting and making offerings to those with higher virtues has no merit.
•What we enjoy and suffer in this life is NOT due to kamma vipaka (energy/actions from pas actions, speech and thoughts/intentions), but they just happen.
•This world does not exist.
•When one dies it is not possible to born in paralow which is a netherworld (transitional state here until a next appropriate womb is available based on personality/habits from the previous life).
•Mother is not a special person.
•Father is not a special person.
•There’s no instantaneous births in other realms of this world.
•There are no Noble persons/yogis who have cultivated their minds to be free of defilements/wrong thoughts and thus can see other realms and previous lives.
Some of the wrong views may be out of your scope of understanding, but at least you’ve been exposed if it becomes relevant to you.

You two girls having had some science background and know a bit about the nature of this world which is cause and effect. Like in chemistry, you add water to concentrated hydrogen sulfuric acid you get an explosion! This is what is going on everywhere here in this world/universe, but with time delay until the conditions are right for the payback to occur. Like a seed of a tree, it won’t grow until the conditions are right…sunlight, water, nutrient soil conditions, etc. For example, when I created the conditions, no stable job or income this allowed an old kamma seed to grow and explode into homelessness, multiple times. I don’t yet know the original bad deed I did in past lives to have this happen, but I’m guessing it was excessive greed and making others homeless.

Some kamma you’ll see in this life, but a lot comes in future lives either by being born in higher (less suffering/more pleasurable) realms or lower (4 lower including the animal realm we can see where suffering is higher) realms. There are 31 realms total, 4 below the human realm and 26 above us and a mind plane that we as sentient beings have access to depending on how covered the mind is with habits and cravings (aka, defilements) and brain function. Obviously, dogs, cats and all animals have different levels brain functioning to access the mind plane.

There is a way to reduce the chances for bad kamma seeds from growing, don’t create the fertile ground on which to sprout them and that is by staying away from the big ten above and doing meritorious deeds (giving, charity, helping others, etc.). All these good things you do, brings about a different kind of happiness, that good feeling inside that’s not like eating really good pizza, but like when a headache goes away. Relief. That’s that the happiness to aim for!

There’s so much more to Buddha Dhamma, but I’ll leave it at that. If you’re ever inclined at some point in your life to learn more it’s here: https://puredhamma.net. I’m forever grateful to Lal, who translated the lost teachings from Sinhala to English from 1500 years ago when they were mistranslated.

Know what you’ve learned here is more valuable than any pleasurable thing in this world and is your ticket to at least a better life in the future and if you investigate further, your ticket out of suffering forever!

With metta (loving kindness) always,
Mom

[Embodied]

Hi,

You said “Instability is a part of life in this universe that’s not within anyone’s control and this is the nature of this world.”
I’m not at the height of helping you (perhaps Lal) so what follows it’s just a little comment to your post : my actual insight is that the less anatta one becomes, the better one deals with/manages anicca (which understands the “instability”) and the less one gets into dukkha.

Your quest is so touching.

Metta

[y not]

Lal:

Thank you.

That is what I meant by ..”When I come across some inconsistency I go on to see whether the inconsistency is only an apparent one” – perhaps I should have continued: In Buddha Dhamma I have never found it to be (inconsistent). I thought that this implication would be obvious.

What needs conemplating on (in my case, at least) is that even alobha, adosa and amoha need to be overcome. Aiming for the highest seems daunting at times seeing the task at hand and my tendencey is to settle for a lesser goal, one which is, or appears to be, within reach:( your “… One acts with amoha and cultivates dasa punna kamma and dasa kusala kamma, and those lead to rebirths in the higher realms, where there is less suffering.” in # 2.) The dangers and suffering there are accepted as inevitable in the scheme of Buddhadhamma,on Shradda and to some extent on the intellectual level too. But they are NOT SEEN. This is why I said elsewhere ‘..well, a long way to go’- nearly accepting my present limitations.

“….but I am not sure how many people pay attention to these key points.” Attention is there. It is the application of them, or ‘making them one’s own’ which is the difficult bit. And it is useless, worse than useless moreover, to lie to oneself.

grateful as ever,

y not

[y not]

Donna:

You seek other ways how to teach Dhamma to young people. You say:
–“I guess working it in everyday terms/words/examples actually does help.” I rarely go beyond this.

My own daughters, two, have 4 sons between the two of them, the eldest being 5 years. So you will know, surely, their hands (the girls’) are always full. There is hardly ever time to go into such matters. BUT when the situation presents itself I indicate by example, sometimes saying something that requires going a bit into it in order to ‘get it’, at other times by physical behaviour – for instance, if asked ‘Would you like some more of this soup (or whatever it is)? , I would reply: ‘ have the others had’?

On a couple of occasions we touched upon rebirth, the vastness or of the Universe, other civilizations ‘out there’,astronomy ( I had built a 10″ reflector in the 80’s) – and the elder one had walked through the tube(!) after I had assembled it -I remember that… things like that. But bringing Dhamma concepts in, such as we find here – I feel I would be ‘pushing’ more than they have time to consider seriously.

So this is not much of an advice. I just wanted to share my experience of (the little of) it with you.

I admire your love and commitment

Metta

y not

[Lal]

@Inflib (Donna): That is a wonderful message that you sent to you daughters.

I would encourage everyone to read that post (in a thread above) by Donna today, May 1, 2018.

A young mind can be molded for good or bad. It is CRITICALLY important to make sure that one’s children are brought up with high morals.

Another is not to let them associate with “bad friends”. Family and friends play a key role in a young person’s future.

Actually, that holds true for adults too. It is important to dissociate from those who have immoral values (even if one can have a “good time” with them partying), if they insist on keeping the old ways. Actually, in some cases, they may change for the better by associating with you; see, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gathi), and Cravings (Asavas)“.

[Johnny_Lim]

Australian, 104, dies in assisted suicide in Switzerland

“My life has been rather poor for the last year or so. And I’m very happy to end it,”

“The British-born scientist said this week that he had been contemplating the idea of suicide for about 20 years, but only started thinking about it for himself after his quality of life deteriorated over the last year.”

Clearly,this man was having vibhava tanha. He must have generated a lot of unwholesome kamma just by thinking of how to end his life prematurely. Imagine those inner chatter in his head, telling him to end his life. According to the Buddha, the only being who takes his/her own life blamelessly is an Arahant. Many people value long life. But this man showed us long life can be torturing too, especially when one is plagued by health issues. If only this man had encountered Buddha Dhamma and attained at least the Sotāpanna stage, he would not have made this suicide decision. Died as a putthujana, future will be bleak.

[Embodied]

Hi Jonnhy,

Well why not do it (committing suicide) since life is mainly suffering, related to “wordly” things, etc?

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Embodied,

The first precept a buddhist undertakes is to refrain from destroying the life of a living being (including their own). To be born as a human is very rare and one must have done much meritorious deeds in past lives. A human birth is the most ideal existence to practise Dhamma and attain magga phala. So, to prematurely terminate one’s life would certainly bring forth much unwholesome kamma vipaka. I heard of some sayings (don’t know how true) of people who commit suicide would have to go through the same process of dying until their vitality is truly exhausted.

[Johnny_Lim]

Also, committing suicide cannot end suffering. It can only bring more suffering. People who are suicidal hold a nihilistic outlook on life. They think once they are gone, suffering will end too. If that is the case, why bother cultivating the spiritual path? The Buddha must have wasted His time preaching Dhamma to the world if committing suicide can end suffering. Energy cannot be created nor be destroyed. It can only be converted from one form to another. This is the 1st law of thermodynamics. And a lifestream is a form of energy.

[Embodied]

Really interesting answer yours,thanks.I only doubt abt the need of always resort to rebirth to “justify” this and that.Personally I accept rebirth as a plausible possibility but on the other hand, it should be possible to evolve within Buddha Dhamma without having an unwavering faith in rebirth.

[Johnny_Lim]

Tilakkhana would not hold if there is no rebirth and law of kamma. Another way to look at it is, if suicide could end one’s suffering, Tilakkhana would not be valid. The Australian man tried to beat Anicca and Anatta via his suicide attempt. He held a wrong view and made a very big mistake.

[Johnny_Lim]

“Personally I accept rebirth as a plausible possibility but on the other hand, it should be possible to evolve within Buddha Dhamma without having an unwavering faith in rebirth.”

If there is no rebirth and law of kamma, then there won’t be any new causes and conditions to shape this world of 31 realms. Sansara will never end. And because sansara is never ending, there will always be causes and conditions to shape the world and sustain sansara itself. We ought to have unwavering faith in rebirth.

[Embodied]

According my most recent understanding of it,Tilakhanna holds perfectly with or without rebirth as to living a peaceful life right now, right here.

I’ll post it asap for further discussion.

[Anonymous]

Embodied, is it worth holding onto the belief of no rebirth when you consider the consequence of the apayas…for millions of years? Ask yourself, do you have faith (saddha) in the Buddha’s message?

With much metta!

[Embodied]

I have faith in my own way. Call it “critical” faith.

Metta

[Johnny_Lim]

Embodied,

Of course Tilakkana is applicable to one’s current life. Tilakkhana is timeless. It is valid in the past, it is valid in the present, and it will continue to be valid in the future.

Are you seriously doubting rebirth? Do you think we are born purely by chance?

[sybe07]

I feel it is most wise not to Judge about his future. Kamma is not accountancy. What ripening results will come from this deed, i cannot Judge. If anyone says he can, that kamma might be possibly even more worse then suicide?

kind regards,
Siebe

[Anonymous]

This is a point of contemplation, not judgement.

[sybe07]

Yes, but johnny said in his reply that future of this man is bleak. But do we know that for sure?

[Akvan]

Johnny said: According to the Buddha, the only being who takes his/her own life blamelessly is an arahanth.

I think this is a common mis-conception. The relevant Sutta/s refer to a monk committing suicide and when other monks asks the Buddha what happened to him, the Buddha says that he attained arahanthship. This does mean that the monk was an arahanth before committing suicide.

The best explanation of this bu Waharaka Thero, is that the monk had a vipaka to repay which was by / to commit suicide. He would have attained arahanthship at the very last moment he was living, after he had actually done the act of cutting off his head. These are very minute time scales (citta viti), which may be hard to grasp for us.

Be that as it may, I cannot understand how / why, if taking one’s own life is an unwholesome act, how an arahanth is blameless in that action. This does not make sense. Also if it is blameless as interpreted by some, why didn’t all the other arahanths (or at least much more) commit suicide?

I feel that someone who commits suicide thinks that this life is no good and hence wants to end. There is some kind of aversion (dosa / dvesha) there. So, committing suicide cannot be something blameless, at least according to the Dhamma. That is how I see it.

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Akvan,

Someone ever told me this…”During the Buddha’s time when the arahants were not following vinaya as they are beyond what the rules were set to address. When ppl couldn’t understand why the difference, the Buddha asked all monks, regardless of awakening, to adhere to vinaya.”

Not too sure whether there was a mass suicide from the arahants back then.

[Lal]

Assisted suicide
This is a very complex issue. We cannot judge exactly what kind of kamma are accumulated by either the person making the decision to end his/her life or other persons assisting.

As I discussed before, there are two key factors to be remembered in evaluating how to assess a kammā vipāka; see, “What is Intention in Kamma?“:

1. Which of the dasa akusala is the intention? For example, it could be taking a life, stealing, or harsh speech. Who is affected is not involved in this step. The “cetana” in “cetana ham bhikkhave kamman vadami”, is just which dasa akusala is in one’s mind; that is all.
2. Then the strength of the kammā vipāka is based on the “level of consciousness” or “qualities” of the living beings affected by that kammā. For example, killing a human will bring stronger kamma vipaka than killing an animal.

Also remember that some kamma lead to both good and bad vipaka. For example, if one saves the life of a frog which was about to be eaten by snake, one would gain merits by saving the frog’s life, but gets bad vipaka for depriving the snake of its meal (food).

I would just stay away from these issues, unless I am involved in the process myself. Then I would have to make the decision based on the exact situation that I need to deal with. It is unfruitful (and could even lead to bad vaci sankhara) to just speculate on kamma done by others. We simply do not know their exact situation(s).

[sybe07]

Yes, and isn’t there also the issue of de salt and water. A bit salt in not much water will give very salty water. But the same amount in a river cannot even be detected.

This is mentioned in AN3.100 (numbering Bodhi). Thanissaro numbers AN3.99:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.099.than.html

The effects for the same trifling bad deed can also be differently experienced because of differences in the doer. Differences in his/her development, character, being limited, big hearted, or not etc. The sutta explains.

I think it is good to note that it concerns trifling bad deeds. But still some can go to hell and another person nearly experiences any ripening effect, with the same trifling deed!

kind regards,
Siebe

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Siebe,

I highlighted the issue of the Australian man who opted for assisted suicide in order to urge everyone not to attempt suicide as a means to end suffering. In doing so, we realised that our fellow Dhamma friend does not have firm belief in rebirth. If we can help to reverse that view, it would certainly be very meritorious for everyone of us. This salt of being judgemental is nothing compared to the vast amount of merit that will dilute the taste of saltiness in due time.

[sybe07]

Oke

[Lal]

In the above post, I was mainly referring assisted suicide in the cases of old age/terminal illness.

However, in the case of young, healthy people committing suicide due to depression/breakup of relationships etc, it is a different situation. In such cases, they may generate hateful/angry thoughts towards others or themselves and that is bad for them. They are not only terminating this life, but could be also terminating what is left of their human bhava.

Therefore, in such cases, Johnny’s reasoning is valid.

[sybe07]

I think one can evaluate kamma vipaka in relation to:

-the characteristics of the doer; (AN3.99, sometimes numbered as AN3.100). If someone is small-minded, for example, even trifling immoral deeds can lead to hell. Not for someone who is big-hearted. Someone with much merit might not even notice the ripening of a trifling evil kamma, but the effect on a person with not much merit might be really painful. According to AN4.182 nobody can guarentee that evil kamma does not produce a future result.

-the characteristics of the deed; one can kill, for example, in many ways. One can torture someone to death. One can kill really cruel or even with compassion. One can feel that such is also relevant for the weight of kamma. It is also said (In AN1.314 and 1.315) that is does not matter what the kamma is, if the view that instigates that kamma is wrong, the results will be wrong. We discussed this earlier. I belief these AN sutta’s tell that one cannot only look at the quality of intention for determining the results. It is a combination of view and intention which seem to determine results.

-the characteristics of the receiving party: immoral behaviour to own parents or holy persons weigh heavier. This is also true for moral deeds.

Just to get this clear for myself. If something is wrong i hope you correct.

Siebe

[y not]

…”in the case of young, healthy people committing suicide due to depression/breakup of relationships etc”

This is by far the least common outcome. In the majority of cases they survive the ordeal. If thoughts of suicide do occur they are dismissed at once as out of the question and they go on through life, some even dedicating it to the welfare of others,be they few or many.

NO HATEFUL THOUGHTS arise towards anybody, not even towards any who may have been the cause of or involved in that depression or the breakup of a relationship etc. The whole of it is later taken with a sense of equanimity, with a sense of ‘so were things meant to turn out’, whether that feeling is in fact valid or not. Is there any BAD kamma vipaka in such cases?

It is important to take into account that the victim (of the depression) is all the while NOT blaming anyone for the circumstances except perhaps him/herself?

y not

[Lal]

@Siebe: What you said in the above:
“A bit salt in not much water will give very salty water. But the same amount in a river cannot even be detected. This is mentioned in AN3.100 (numbering Bodhi). Thanissaro numbers AN3.99:
Lonaphala Sutta: The Salt Crystal

That is correct with regard to any situation, not only in this particular case. And that is an important point. When one habitually does many punna/kusala kamma, they accumulate and tend to dilute the effects of any occasional papa/akusala kamma.

In addition to the examples given in that sutta, we can consider the following too: When a $1000 check bonces off of an account at a bank, where one has only $500 in all accounts at the bank, that is a big problem. However, if that person had a million dollars in another account at the bank, then that is not a problem at all.

Another example similar to the one is the sutta: Sometimes we see standing water in a ditch by the roadside. It could be discolored and even smelly. However, when a good rainfall comes, all that dirty stuff will be washed away. The Buddha called this “rivers of punna/kusala kamma washing off many small accumulations of papa/akusala kamma“.

When one has “a lot of reserves of good”, an occasional misstep or misdeed is not going to affect the overall situation.

[sybe07]

Hi Lal,

Dhammapada verses 172 and 173

-Who once was heedless,
but later is not,
brightens the world
like the moon set free from a cloud.

His evil-done deed
is replaced with skillfulness:
he brightens the world
like the moon set free from a cloud.

Siebe

[y not]

…further to my post above:

I do not know how many on here share my experience, which I have had since childhood. I always felt that we have been before, and we shall be after this life is over. Looking at the sky, contemplating infinity and eternity, it seemed to me impossible that a human’s life can be restricted to just a few decades, when insentient (at least compared to the human level) planets and stars last for billions of years.

So suicide cannot solve any problem, we shall be just the same, only in a worse or better condition depending on our actions here now. This has been my bulwark, my protection against even the contemplation of suicide.

y not

[Embodied]

Lal said “is forcibly suppressing defiled thoughts, speech, and actions (that is the “apana” or removal part of “anapana” or “ana” + “apana”).”

…maybe we have been saying similar just with different language…To forcibly suppress a defiled thought means that the thought popped-up, means that you “saw” it in your mind and this is what i wanted to mean by acceptance.

Of course i read the “Bhāvanā (Meditation)” , first thing i read when i discovered this site. As for living dhamma sections, i’ll check no doubt.

Thanks

[Author]

Posts