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Johnny said: 1. ” But I believe most people would have in some point of their lives experienced a sense of emptiness and loneliness after or even while enjoying sense pleasures.”
2. “And because they are not exposed to Buddha Dhamma, they continue to do more of those worldly things which they think can ‘fix’ their problems.”Very true in both cases.
They don’t know about any other way, other than to seek even higher doses of alcohol, drugs, etc.
That is very unfortunate. This is why we should try to spread the message of the Buddha to anyone interested. That may make a big difference in some people’s lives. One good thing about the internet is that any person will have access to website like this one and could be exposed to the teachings of the Buddha.
When one can experience the relief in following the Buddha’s path, one will never go back to alcohol or drugs. It will not be easy in the beginning, but if traction is made, that will change those lives forever.
Johnny said: “We often forget that suffering is our best teacher. It is like the entrance ticket to Nibbana.”
Suffering by itself cannot be the best teacher, unless one is aware that a solution exists. So, if one who is suffering is exposed to Buddha Dhamma, that could be a huge opportunity for that person. Most people who are suffering do not realize that there is a solution; they are just not aware of Buddha’s correct teachings.
Of course, you are correct in the sense that, for one who is familiar with Buddha Dhamma, “a suffering event” can be an eye opener. That could be either major life event for oneself or even to another, that clearly illustrates the anicca nature and the dangers in the rebirth process.
Hi Johnny,
I think the best way to answer your question is to say the following:Vinnana means acting without nana or wisdom.
That basically means acting with either the worse form of avijja with one or more of 10 types of micca ditthi OR just acting without the comprehension of Tilakkhana. The latter case is less dangerous, of course. So, there are different levels of avijja, micca ditthi, and corresponding vinnana.
So, when akusala-mula pavutti paticca samuppada cycles are in operation, that means acting with vinnana.
Pancaupadanakkhandha also arises when one is craving for something in this world. So, akusala-mula pavutti paticca samuppada cycles must be in operation.
Yes, Johnny. I talked only about a fraction of the fraction of pancakkhadha.
I talked mainly about one’s own body, which is only a part of the rupakkhandha. But it is an important part that give rise to sakkaya ditthi.
One can then think about the external rupa that one is attached to: spouse, children, enemies (attachment via hate), material things that one own, so on.
Then those give rise to the four mental aggregates: vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana. They are therefore inherently connected with the rupakkhandha. For example, one forms vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana about one’s own body.When one gets attached to any single material thing, a whole host of mental aggregates get involved around it.
For example, when one sees the beauty of one’s body in the mirror, one may become happy (vedana), get the sanna that one is better looking than so and so, generate thoughts about how to maintain it that way or make it even better by doing various things (sankhara), and an overall sense of satisfaction about the future (vinnana).
When one sees a grey hair for the first time in the mirror, or if the face gets disfigured due an injury, for example, those may reverse.
So, there are million ways to contemplate on this complex issue.
Also, we need to keep in mind that even the rupakkhandha is mental too, in the sense that when we see a rupa, it is instantly added to the memory as a mental impression of that rupa (together with the four mental aggregates about that rupa). See: “Pancupādānakkhandha – It is All Mental“.For example, when we recall seeing a person (or even oneself) 20 years ago, the picture that comes mind is that of that person at that time. That is part of the rupakkhandha, but it is just a mental impression.
Furthermore, we form attachment to only a fraction of the five aggregates (pancakkhandha), and those are the panca upadanakkhandha. I have discussed the following example: Pancakkhadnha is like a huge wall, and when a fly lands on the wall, it grabs only an insignificant part of the wall surface with it tiny feet.
Everything that we see, hear, smell, taste, touch, and think about is included in the pancakkhadha (including future plans). But we get attached to only a fraction of them. Until one sees the futility (and danger) of those attachments, it is still hard to get rid of those attachments.
It is very important to make the connection to dasa akusala and micca ditthi (and the bad outcomes arising due to that connection), which is hardly talked about these days. But that is where the real connection to future suffering is.
Embodied said: “At this point one should stop the contemplation process and start breathing in and out to cleanse the body; sometimes the body itself automatically gets rid of those things via a long out breath. This will lead to passaddhi (tranquility) of both the body and the mind, and one gets to samadhi gradually. One needs to think about the lightness of the body and the mind (passaddhi) and the niramisa sukha (from samadhi) that results. One also should think about upekkha (equanimity) too.
When the body and the mind calm down enough and when one feels relaxed, one should go back to cultivating the previous three sabbojjanga, i.e., start on the contemplation process of dhammavicaya.”As Tobias confirmed, that is correct. That quote is from the post,”11. Magga Phala via Cultivation of Saptha Bojjanga“.
Your earlier description of anicca is fine too, Embodied.
Each person sees it one’s own way. But the key is to see the “unfruitfullness” in worldly things, and that if one commits dasa akusala to get those worldly things one will face bad consequences in the future.By the way, the following post may be helpful for everyone in writing responses or asking questions in formatting the text (and to provide links): “How to Reply to a Forum Question“.
Hi Tobias,
There is not that much to be gained by doing an Abhidhamma analysis.
This is a matter of getting the basic idea. That will change one’s sanna about this world>.Sanna is a universal cetasika and arises in each and every citta. So, once one gets the “yathabhuta nana” it will be embedded in one’s cittas forever.
As one’s understanding of Tilakkhana grows, one’s panna (wisdom) will grow and the asobhana cetasika lobha, dosa, moha will diminish. Samma Nana — that is attained upon the completion of the Noble Eightfold Path — is complete when panna is optimized (and at that time one is an Arahant and one had attained full release or Samma vimutti).
The fundamental idea is discussed in detail in the fourth desana on Tilakkhana that was just published: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“. And that discussion will continue in the next and last desana in that series. That is what needs to be grasped. Of course, some may have already grasped it, and there are many ways to get there.
If there are more questions on this issue, it is better to discuss them at the forum on “Three Marks of Existence Discourses“. Complete removal of micca ditthi is attained upon full understanding of Tilakkhana.
For example, Anapana sati meditation is not breath meditation. See “6. Anāpānasati Bhāvanā (Introduction)” and the following two posts.
I really recommend reading the section on “Bhāvanā (Meditation)“.
Tobias said: “Micca ditthi is one of the dasa akusala done with the mind. That means also kusala abhisankhara (this should be punna abhisankhara; see the comments on May 14, 2019 below) are done with the dasa akusala involved, at least until the Sotapanna stage (where micca ditthi is removed).”
This is a very good point, and I hope everyone pays attention to it.
This is why one cannot get to Nibbana via the mundane eightfold path. One’s micca ditthi NOT completely removed until one comprehends the REAL NATURE (yathabhuta nana), with Tilakkhana.
For example, one on the mundane path abstains from stealing, sexual misconduct, etc MAINLY because one is afraid of rebirth in lower realms. But if the temptation is high, one may go ahead and do it anyway.
However, one who has comprehended Tilakkhana has seen the UNFRUITFULESS sense pleasures. So, in addition to the “being afraid factor”, one also KNOWS that no matter how tempting, it is not WORTHWHILE.
– Of course, a Sotapanna has not fully grasped Tilakkhana, so he/she will absolutely not do only those anantariya kamma. Only an Arahant has the full yathabhuta nana, and thus will not do ANY akusala kamma.This is discussed in detail in the fourth desana on Tilakkhana that was just published: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
P.S. on June 17, 2022
My comment that Johnny quoted “A Sotapanna who gets to the first Ariya jhana has removed kama raga, but may not have had the Anagami phala moment.” is not correct.
It should read as, “A Sotapanna who gets to the first anariya jhana has not removed kama raga. But he/she would still be –in effect — be an Anagami in the sense of “not coming back to the kama loka.”
1. One with a given jhana will be born in the corresponding brahma realm.
– So, a Sotapanna with the first anariya jhana will be born in the corresponding brahma realm, not in the Suddhāvāsa, which is reserved for those who have attained the Anagami phala moment.
– But he/she is still an Anagami (“na” + “agami” or not coming back to kama loka). He/she will attain the Anagami phala moment there and then will be born in the Suddhāvāsa.2. Any magga phala can be attained in any realm (human and above), with the following exceptions: One cannot attain the Sotapanna stage in arupavacara realms, since one does not have ears to listen to Dhamma. Also, no magga phala possible in the Asanna realm.
– But a Sotapanna can attain higher magga phala if born in arupavacara realms too.The two TED presentations links that Donna has provided are good. They emphasize the negative aspects of bad speech.
What “y not” stated is true in general. One mostly comes across material that are not good or even harmful sometimes.
So, if one gets material from reliable sources, it is not a bad idea to look at them, if one has time. But most of this information is in Buddha Dhamma, and the “Moral Living and Fundamentals” section has posts on such topics.
Furthermore, it is important to understand that vaci sankhara is not just speech, but also includes conscious thoughts. One can be generating a lot of bad vaci sankhara without saying a single word: “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
This was discussed under the topic, “Jhana and magga pala“.
More information at the post, “Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna“.
I think the sutta that is discussed at the end of that post is similar to the MN52 that you mentioned, Johnny.
Key facts to keep in mind:
1. Anariya jhana attained by focusing on a worldly object like breath or kasina. Ariya jhana attained by taking the “seen Nibbana” as the thought object: “etan santan etan paneetan…”.2. Thus one has to have “seen” Nibbana (i.e., one must be at least a Sotapanna) to take Nibbana as the thought object (which means the “cooling down one has seen”).
3. One gets to anariya jhana by SUPPRESSING pancanivarana. A Sotapanna has REMOVED pancanivarana.
4. Of course, one who has anariya jhana can make it an Ariya jhana by comprehending the Tilakkhana and seeing the futility of jhanic pleasures.
5. A Sotapanna who gets to the first anariya jhana has not removed kama raga. But he/she will not come back to the kama loka (will get theAnagami phala moment in the brahma loka and attain Nibbana there). So, he/she is still an Anagami (“na” + “agami” or not coming back). This is what is stated in the last bullet in “Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna“.
It is true that there is no “unchanging self”, like a “hero” or a “coward”.
However, at a given time, a person has certain “gati” or habits/character. And one’s behavior at that time is influenced by his/her gati.
See: “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gathi), and Cravings (Asavas)” and “Habits, Goals, and Character (Gathi)“.There are more posts on how to change one’s gati for the better. In fact, this is the key to making progress.
See, “How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View” and “Patisandhi Citta – How the Next Life is Determined According to Gathi“.This has been discussed at various levels in many posts. You can also use the “Search” box on the top right to find more posts on gati (I have spelled it sometimes as gathi, so use both words).
Don’t hesitate to ask questions if something is not clear. It is a good question and understanding the issue can be quite helpful.
Thanks, Donna.
Please don’t hesitate to ask questions if you have any.
I also would like to make a general comment to everyone. These desanas only provide the framework for discussions. We can simplify or go to deeper levels at the forum.
I have spent a lot of time trying to “walk the middle ground” with these. These may still be either too hard or too simple for some. That is why I specifically started topics on each desana, so that we can discuss each desana at various levels.
They also increase in depth as we go to the next two desanas, and there will be total of five, at least for the time being.
Even though I may not be writing regular posts for a few months, I will be participating in the discussion forum.
Welcome to the discussion forum, José!
Thank you for the introduction too.
Please don’t hesitate to ask questions and also to respond to others’ questions. Everyone’s input is appreciated.
I also realized that I had not welcomed people to the forum in the first two months or so. My apologies for forgetting to do that. I think most of them had corresponded with me via email before, so that was probably the reason that I did not think about it.
