[Lal]

The need to learn about the 31 realms is somewhat similar to the need to learn Abhidhamma. They are both not necessary, but could provide additional information to build faith in Buddha Dhamma. However, for those who are not that familiar with these, it could raise questions like the ones Aniduan has raised.

Since Buddha Dhamma describes a much wider world (with 31 realms) than just the 2 realms (human and animal) that we are aware of, it initially takes some effort to start understanding this “big picture”. Even though 31 realms makes the picture more complex, it is necessary in order to have a self-consistent picture of the world.

For example, it is not possible to explain laws of kamma and paticca samuppada without the 31 realms. Let me just take a simple example to make this point.

Births in various realms are according to one gati.
One’s gati are cultivated via “what kind of things one enjoys or likes”: “pati icca leading sama uppada” or paticca samuppada; see, “Paticca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha”+”Sama+uppāda“.

Those with vicious hateful gati are likely to be born in the niraya (hell). Those with excess greed are likely to be born in the preta realms. Those with “lazy gati” are likely to be born in the asura realm. Those with “animal gati” in animal realms, those with “good moral gati” in human and deva realms. On the other hand, there are some who cultivate jhana and value jhanic pleasures much more than sense pleasures in human and deva realms. They are born in the brahma realms.

Since there are very few with abhinna powers these days, it may be a bit difficult to “believe in the existence of those realms”. On the other hand, for those who have studied Dhamma in detail, it is easy to see the need for all those realms.

So, it depends on the person. This is why each person should follow what makes sense and other things may become clear with time. It is not possible for each and every person to have the same understanding, which evolves with time too.

For a deeper analysis, see: “Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency“.

[Lal]

y not said: “As far as I can see, all that one can do is to constantly re-enforce one’s good gathi (by staying away from akusala, observing the precepts,mindfulness, doing Metta Bhavana, Pattidana, and dana of any type), thus re-enforcing those kamma with good vipaka.”

Yes. Only thing we can do is to stay on the Noble Path. The Buddha said that the only thing a farmer can do is to take care of the field by providing water, nutrients, etc. A good harvest will result. No point is worrying about whether one will have a good harvest.

[Lal]

Good question.

There is at least one sutta defining panca bala the other way: “Punakūṭa Sutta (AN 5.16)“:

“Pañcimāni, bhikkhave, balāni. Katamāni pañca? Saddhābalaṃ, vīriyabalaṃ, satibalaṃ, samādhibalaṃ, paññābalaṃ—imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañca balāni. Imesaṃ kho, bhikkhave, pañcannaṃ balānaṃ etaṃ aggaṃ etaṃ saṅgāhikaṃ etaṃ saṅghātaniyaṃ, yadidaṃ paññābalaṃ. Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, kūṭāgārassa etaṃ aggaṃ etaṃ saṅgāhikaṃ etaṃ saṅghātaniyaṃ, yadidaṃ kūṭaṃ. Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, imesaṃ pañcannaṃ balānaṃ etaṃ aggaṃ etaṃ saṅgāhikaṃ etaṃ saṅghātaniyaṃ, yadidaṃ paññābalan”ti.”

On the other hand, the sutta Tobias quoted is about Sekha bala.

I am not sure what the difference is. But a Sekha means “one in training”, basically anyone below the Arahant stage.

[Lal]

This is a complex issue. As we know analysis of kamma is one of the “unthinkables” (acinteyya). What that means is a human (other than a Buddha) will never be able to COMPLETELY sort out what happens in a given situation. But we can understand general trends.

Only clear-cut is an anantariya kamma vipaka. That will bring vipaka before any other pending vipaka.

Other than those, there could be many factors coming into play at the cuti-patisandhi moment. But if one of the strong vipaka is clearly stronger, it will come to the front. But if there are several vipaka of about the same “magnitude”, that is when the state of the mind could play a role.

The other KEY POINT to remember is that grasping a new bhava is NOT done CONSCIOUSLY. It is automatic, based on those and possibly other factors. It happens naturally, just like many things in the nature just happen according to nature’s laws.

For example, when a reservoir starts overflowing, the water will go over the lowest point of the wall holding the water, if the height of the wall is not the same. Or, in a hurricane, while those trees with weak roots could be uprooted, one’s with strong roots will survive. It just happens, based on many factors at play (strength of the winds, weakness of roots, whether a tree a shielded by other trees, etc).

[Lal]

Yes. it is a rare event. The probability is very low, but it is possible. The Buddha clearly said that coming out of the apayas is a rare event, but it does happen.

As we have discussed before, at the cuti-patisandhi moment, many strong kamma vipaka from the past come to the mind, and one is selected based on the state of the mind at that moment. It is possible that an animal may have had a strong good kamma vipaka from the past.
– There is a sutta about a frog who was listening to a desana by the Buddha. The frog was crushed unknowingly by a person’s walking stick, and it was born instantaneously in a deva realm. This deva, called Manduka deva, then realized how he was born in the deva world, and came back to listen to the same desana which was still in progress. The frog of course could not understand the desana, but his state of the mind (due the soothing voice of the Buddha) enabled him to grasp a deva bhava, based on a strong past good kamma.

Another possibility in this particular case is that it is only mentioned about a monkey bhava from the past. It does not need to be the bhava just before the human bhava when the Arahanthood was attained. It is possible, for example, that there was a dvihetuka human bhava in between the monkey bhava and the last human bhava where the Arahanthood was realized.

[Lal]

” That means if an ahetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi took place while grasping the human bhava, it is not possible to reach magga phala within that whole bhava.”

That is correct.

[Lal]

I think the confusion is with ahetuka birth and ahetuka cuti-patisandhi.

Monkey bhava was an ahetuka birth DUE TO an ahetuka cuti-patisandhi from a PREVIOUS bhava.

Then a tihetuka cuti-patisandhi occurred when the kammic energy for the monkey bhava was exhausted, and then a tihetuka birth in the human realm took place.

I also revised my previous reply.

[Lal]

@Tobias: Cuti-patisandhi means the kammic energy for the previous bhava had been exhausted (cuti) and grasping (or attaching to) a new bhava.

So, that Arahant WAS in an animal bhava (monkey bhava), and was born a monkey many times and exhausted that kammic energy. Then at the cuti-patisandhi moment, human bhava was grasped. So, he attained Arahanthood after being born a human.

The sequence is: Monkey bhava (where he was born a monkey many times). When the kammic energy for the monkey bhava expired, human bhava grasped at the cuti-patisandhi MOMENT. Then he was born a human within that human bhava. Then he attained the Arahanthood.

[Lal]

“Do I understand it right, that in order to attain magga phala one needs a tihetuka cuti-patisandhi to the new human or deva bhava?”

Yes. This is correct.

“How can a being in the apayas have tihetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi?”

1. Dvihetuka and tihetuka normally mean one born with two or three of the three “good roots”: alobha, adosa, amoha. One with a tihetuka birth can attain magga phala, but one with a dvihetuka birth can only work towards getting a tihetuka birth and attaining magga phala in a future life.

– One born with only one “good root” is called ahetuka, not because there are no roots, but it expresses the fact that they are “unfortunate”. They cannot understand Dhamma at all.
– While it is not possible to distinguish between tihetuka and dvihetuka persons, it is fairly easy to identify an “ahetuka” human. He/she is mentally (not physically) handicapped, and would have a very low IQ.

2. A being in the apayas (four lowest realms) would not have ANY of the three “good roots”. I think they are also called “ahetuka patisandhi“.

– Again, ahetuka here does not means “without causes”. Rather it means they have “bad hetu” (usually two of the three “bad hetu“: lobha, dosa, moha). So, the term “ahetuka patisandhi” for those in the apayas just means “no good hetu“.

[Lal]

firewrns said :”Sometimes we retaliate angrily out of perceived cultural norms that we should defend our honour or to save ‘face’. For example, in certain societies, there is a culture of honour in which slights to one’s pride should be avenged..”

Yes. There are many unwise or even dangerous accepted norms like that: covering women’s bodies with burka (so that men don’t get aroused!), halal meat (where an animal’s skin is punctured and hanged so that it will bleed to death; the idea is to have meat that is not “contaminated” with blood), etc. Some people are even convinced of possible rewards of suicide bombings!

[Lal]

Thanks, SengKiat.

Here is another link (it is the first paragraph there):
Peṭakopadesa: 5. Hāra­vibhaṅ­ga­pañca­ma­bhūmi

Petakopadesa is one of only three surviving original commentaries; they are included in the Tipitaka. To compare, Visuddhimagga was written around 450 CE, about 700 years later.

[Lal]

Hi Akvan,

You said: “I agree in principle on everything you have mentioned but I think I am hung up on a few technical words here.”

Yes. I think so.

You said: “What I understand from this is that Dukkha Dukkhatha and Viparinama Dukkhatha can be removed while still alive, while Sankhara Dukkhatha is eliminated after anupadisesa nibbana.”

That is not correct. The reference you gave does not say that. All three (sankhara dukkhata, dukkha dukkhata, viparinama dukkhata) are associated with any sankata. They will be there until the sankata is destroyed. The physical body of even a Buddha is a sankata. It is very clear from the Tipitaka that the Buddha suffered physically due to old age, back aches, and also due to a physical injury.

There is a sutta that attributes all three types to a sankata. It says: “uppado sankata lakkhanan, sankhara dukkhata; vayo sankata lakkhanan, viparinama dukkhata; titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata“. I don’t remember the name of the sutta.

[Lal]

It is better to say: Both dukha vedana (eg., an injury or cancer) and sukha vedana (eg. a good massage) arise due to kamma vipaka and are exhibited in the physical body. Vipaka means is a result, so one may not be able to completely stop a dukha vedana due to an injury, for example, but can take steps to make it better (but that also involves some more dukkha as we see below; one has to do things to make the situation better; so that involves sankhara dukkha).
-By the way, both sukha and dukkha are not cetasika (mental factors), consistent with the fact that they don’t arise in the mind (even though they are of course eventually felt by the mind).
– But the problem is, normal humans GENERATE additional mental suffering (mainly by worrying about the physical suffering by generating vaci sankhara).

You said: ‘When sentient beings strive to avoid dukha vedana and prolong sukha vedana as much as possible, they engage in sankhara dukkha (the suffering of burdensome activities)…”
– That is right.

You asked: “One question is: Do activities to maintain our health and daily lives count as sankhara dukkha? For example, is exercise to maintain our health a form of sankhara dukkha? What about brushing the teeth, showering and eating?”.
– Yes. We have to do things (sankhara) to “maintain a healthy body”, and that is “extra work”, that is necessary. But it is important to note that these are not necessarily ABHISANKHARA that will lead to future vipaka. These are really more dukha associated with moving the body, etc (For example, in the case of an injury, we have to go to a doctor or go and get whatever is need to apply to the wound, etc).

You said: “I understand that in order to have cooked food on our dinner tables, it is necessary to go grocery shopping, pay for the purchases, wash and cook the food, and clean up after the meals, etc. But what about the mere act of eating? There is surely effort involved, even if it is very minor”. Yes. All these involve an effort (sankhara), even though some of it is “masked” by our anticipated “pleasures”. Nevertheless, all that involve more work.

You asked: “This is for me to understand whether the Buddha Himself was subjected to sankhara dukkha. For example, when He suffered from bodily aches and pain due to previous vipaka, might he have continually changed His position or posture to lessen the pain? Would that be considered a form of sankhara dukkha?
The Buddha needed to eat to continue to live. When going round on his alms round to obtain alms food, would that be considered a form of sankhara dukkha?”
– Yes. The only suffering that stops for a Buddha or an Arahant DURING the life is “samphassa ja vedana“; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
– Anyone with a physical body will be subjected to all three types of dukkha (dukkha dukkha, sankhara dukkha, viparinama dukkha). They continue until Parinibbana. After that, all suffering stops.

[Lal]

Thank you, firewns, for sharing your experience. That is a text book example of “cooling down”.
– You said, “Had I seethed with anger, my day would have been ruined and my mood would have turned dark and bitter.” That is exactly right.
– Furthermore, you also possibly “stopped arising of suffering in future rebirths” from that incident too; sometimes things get escalated and get out-of-hand.

Both Aniduan’s and firewns’s experiences are mostly related to anger.
We should not forget that we get “attached” (tanha) via greed (both due to ignorance) too; see, “Tanhā – How We Attach Via Greed, Hate, and Ignorance“.
– For example, one could get attracted to a married person and start an affair.

Both versions of tanha lead to distress (soka) and danger (via getting frightened) (bhaya), as pointed out in the following Dhammapada gatha:

“Tanhaya japati soko
tanhaya jayati bhayam
tanhaya vippamuttassa
natthi soko kuto bhayam”.

Here vippamutta comes from “vippa” (separate or get released) and “mutta” (become free), i.e., become free by separating from tanha, in this case. So, the verse reads:

“Tanha leads to distress and danger (getting frightened)
By detaching from tanha, one will be free of distress and danger”.

The more one goes through experiences like Aniduan’s and firewns’s, one’s gati will change and then more and more one will be responding correctly in such situations. And the more one responds like that (automatically), that is the confirmation of comprehension of Tilakkhana, i.e., not acting with avijja. It may not happen under strong sense influences, but one needs to correct oneself as soon as one realizes that one is not “acting properly”. That is the real practice of Satipatthana.

[Lal]

Hi Aniduan,
I am glad to hear that. I know there could many others who may have a difficult time believing this. The reason for that skepticism is that it is hard for us to “see” the power of the human mind.

But this is the key to understanding Buddha Dhamma. The “proof“ is actually what you said: One can experience the results.

We cannot “see” the radio or television waves emitted by the broadcasting stations. But we know they exist because we can tune to the station we want by tuning to the right frequency. We can stay away from those we don’t want.
Just like that by adjusting our minds, we can tap the “correct Dhamma” (normally called “Dhamma“)and reject the “bad Dhamma” (also called “Adhamma“).

The following Dhammapada verse explains why one can NEVER overcome anger (vera) by anger; it can only be overcome by non-hate or compassion (avera).

“Na hi verena verani
sammantidha kudacanam
averena ca sammanti
esa dhammo sanantano“.

It is easier to see the meaning when we break adjoined terms (“anta” is end; “san” is what we do to extend samsara, i.e., sankhara; “ku” are defilements); see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“. It is important to see how the sounds may change when two words are combined: it is the natural way the sound comes out:

“Na hi verena verani
san anti (will end or stop) idha ku (defilements) udda (to uproot) ācanam (ācaya means “to accumulate”)
averena ca san anti (anti is come to an end)
esa dhammo san antano (that which stops)”.

Translated:
“Anger cannot be overcome by anger.
Defilement of the mind ends when those ‘ku’ are uprooted
Compassion will lead to the end of “san” (here to stop bad thoughts from arising)
This is the Dhamma (or the way) to end “san” (and thus to attain peace)”.

It is also important to make this “peace of mind” permanent (i.e., remove anusaya or remove “ku” permanently from the mind). That involves comprehending Tilakkhana. That is what is meant by “kammakkhaya” in the post: “Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya“.

If anyone has questions on that or the above, we can discuss.

[Author]

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