[Lal]

“Do I understand it right, that in order to attain magga phala one needs a tihetuka cuti-patisandhi to the new human or deva bhava?”

Yes. This is correct.

“How can a being in the apayas have tihetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi?”

1. Dvihetuka and tihetuka normally mean one born with two or three of the three “good roots”: alobha, adosa, amoha. One with a tihetuka birth can attain magga phala, but one with a dvihetuka birth can only work towards getting a tihetuka birth and attaining magga phala in a future life.

– One born with only one “good root” is called ahetuka, not because there are no roots, but it expresses the fact that they are “unfortunate”. They cannot understand Dhamma at all.
– While it is not possible to distinguish between tihetuka and dvihetuka persons, it is fairly easy to identify an “ahetuka” human. He/she is mentally (not physically) handicapped, and would have a very low IQ.

2. A being in the apayas (four lowest realms) would not have ANY of the three “good roots”. I think they are also called “ahetuka patisandhi“.

– Again, ahetuka here does not means “without causes”. Rather it means they have “bad hetu” (usually two of the three “bad hetu“: lobha, dosa, moha). So, the term “ahetuka patisandhi” for those in the apayas just means “no good hetu“.

[Lal]

firewrns said :”Sometimes we retaliate angrily out of perceived cultural norms that we should defend our honour or to save ‘face’. For example, in certain societies, there is a culture of honour in which slights to one’s pride should be avenged..”

Yes. There are many unwise or even dangerous accepted norms like that: covering women’s bodies with burka (so that men don’t get aroused!), halal meat (where an animal’s skin is punctured and hanged so that it will bleed to death; the idea is to have meat that is not “contaminated” with blood), etc. Some people are even convinced of possible rewards of suicide bombings!

[Lal]

Thanks, SengKiat.

Here is another link (it is the first paragraph there):
Peṭakopadesa: 5. Hāra­vibhaṅ­ga­pañca­ma­bhūmi

Petakopadesa is one of only three surviving original commentaries; they are included in the Tipitaka. To compare, Visuddhimagga was written around 450 CE, about 700 years later.

[Lal]

Hi Akvan,

You said: “I agree in principle on everything you have mentioned but I think I am hung up on a few technical words here.”

Yes. I think so.

You said: “What I understand from this is that Dukkha Dukkhatha and Viparinama Dukkhatha can be removed while still alive, while Sankhara Dukkhatha is eliminated after anupadisesa nibbana.”

That is not correct. The reference you gave does not say that. All three (sankhara dukkhata, dukkha dukkhata, viparinama dukkhata) are associated with any sankata. They will be there until the sankata is destroyed. The physical body of even a Buddha is a sankata. It is very clear from the Tipitaka that the Buddha suffered physically due to old age, back aches, and also due to a physical injury.

There is a sutta that attributes all three types to a sankata. It says: “uppado sankata lakkhanan, sankhara dukkhata; vayo sankata lakkhanan, viparinama dukkhata; titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata“. I don’t remember the name of the sutta.

[Lal]

It is better to say: Both dukha vedana (eg., an injury or cancer) and sukha vedana (eg. a good massage) arise due to kamma vipaka and are exhibited in the physical body. Vipaka means is a result, so one may not be able to completely stop a dukha vedana due to an injury, for example, but can take steps to make it better (but that also involves some more dukkha as we see below; one has to do things to make the situation better; so that involves sankhara dukkha).
-By the way, both sukha and dukkha are not cetasika (mental factors), consistent with the fact that they don’t arise in the mind (even though they are of course eventually felt by the mind).
– But the problem is, normal humans GENERATE additional mental suffering (mainly by worrying about the physical suffering by generating vaci sankhara).

You said: ‘When sentient beings strive to avoid dukha vedana and prolong sukha vedana as much as possible, they engage in sankhara dukkha (the suffering of burdensome activities)…”
– That is right.

You asked: “One question is: Do activities to maintain our health and daily lives count as sankhara dukkha? For example, is exercise to maintain our health a form of sankhara dukkha? What about brushing the teeth, showering and eating?”.
– Yes. We have to do things (sankhara) to “maintain a healthy body”, and that is “extra work”, that is necessary. But it is important to note that these are not necessarily ABHISANKHARA that will lead to future vipaka. These are really more dukha associated with moving the body, etc (For example, in the case of an injury, we have to go to a doctor or go and get whatever is need to apply to the wound, etc).

You said: “I understand that in order to have cooked food on our dinner tables, it is necessary to go grocery shopping, pay for the purchases, wash and cook the food, and clean up after the meals, etc. But what about the mere act of eating? There is surely effort involved, even if it is very minor”. Yes. All these involve an effort (sankhara), even though some of it is “masked” by our anticipated “pleasures”. Nevertheless, all that involve more work.

You asked: “This is for me to understand whether the Buddha Himself was subjected to sankhara dukkha. For example, when He suffered from bodily aches and pain due to previous vipaka, might he have continually changed His position or posture to lessen the pain? Would that be considered a form of sankhara dukkha?
The Buddha needed to eat to continue to live. When going round on his alms round to obtain alms food, would that be considered a form of sankhara dukkha?”
– Yes. The only suffering that stops for a Buddha or an Arahant DURING the life is “samphassa ja vedana“; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
– Anyone with a physical body will be subjected to all three types of dukkha (dukkha dukkha, sankhara dukkha, viparinama dukkha). They continue until Parinibbana. After that, all suffering stops.

[Lal]

Thank you, firewns, for sharing your experience. That is a text book example of “cooling down”.
– You said, “Had I seethed with anger, my day would have been ruined and my mood would have turned dark and bitter.” That is exactly right.
– Furthermore, you also possibly “stopped arising of suffering in future rebirths” from that incident too; sometimes things get escalated and get out-of-hand.

Both Aniduan’s and firewns’s experiences are mostly related to anger.
We should not forget that we get “attached” (tanha) via greed (both due to ignorance) too; see, “Tanhā – How We Attach Via Greed, Hate, and Ignorance“.
– For example, one could get attracted to a married person and start an affair.

Both versions of tanha lead to distress (soka) and danger (via getting frightened) (bhaya), as pointed out in the following Dhammapada gatha:

“Tanhaya japati soko
tanhaya jayati bhayam
tanhaya vippamuttassa
natthi soko kuto bhayam”.

Here vippamutta comes from “vippa” (separate or get released) and “mutta” (become free), i.e., become free by separating from tanha, in this case. So, the verse reads:

“Tanha leads to distress and danger (getting frightened)
By detaching from tanha, one will be free of distress and danger”.

The more one goes through experiences like Aniduan’s and firewns’s, one’s gati will change and then more and more one will be responding correctly in such situations. And the more one responds like that (automatically), that is the confirmation of comprehension of Tilakkhana, i.e., not acting with avijja. It may not happen under strong sense influences, but one needs to correct oneself as soon as one realizes that one is not “acting properly”. That is the real practice of Satipatthana.

[Lal]

Hi Aniduan,
I am glad to hear that. I know there could many others who may have a difficult time believing this. The reason for that skepticism is that it is hard for us to “see” the power of the human mind.

But this is the key to understanding Buddha Dhamma. The “proof“ is actually what you said: One can experience the results.

We cannot “see” the radio or television waves emitted by the broadcasting stations. But we know they exist because we can tune to the station we want by tuning to the right frequency. We can stay away from those we don’t want.
Just like that by adjusting our minds, we can tap the “correct Dhamma” (normally called “Dhamma“)and reject the “bad Dhamma” (also called “Adhamma“).

The following Dhammapada verse explains why one can NEVER overcome anger (vera) by anger; it can only be overcome by non-hate or compassion (avera).

“Na hi verena verani
sammantidha kudacanam
averena ca sammanti
esa dhammo sanantano“.

It is easier to see the meaning when we break adjoined terms (“anta” is end; “san” is what we do to extend samsara, i.e., sankhara; “ku” are defilements); see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“. It is important to see how the sounds may change when two words are combined: it is the natural way the sound comes out:

“Na hi verena verani
san anti (will end or stop) idha ku (defilements) udda (to uproot) ācanam (ācaya means “to accumulate”)
averena ca san anti (anti is come to an end)
esa dhammo san antano (that which stops)”.

Translated:
“Anger cannot be overcome by anger.
Defilement of the mind ends when those ‘ku’ are uprooted
Compassion will lead to the end of “san” (here to stop bad thoughts from arising)
This is the Dhamma (or the way) to end “san” (and thus to attain peace)”.

It is also important to make this “peace of mind” permanent (i.e., remove anusaya or remove “ku” permanently from the mind). That involves comprehending Tilakkhana. That is what is meant by “kammakkhaya” in the post: “Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya“.

If anyone has questions on that or the above, we can discuss.

[Lal]

I moved this topic to “Kamma and Kamma Vipaka” forum, since this is really a question on how to deal with kamma vipaka. We all go through situations like this (some much worse), and thus I thought to have a comprehensive discussion on this topic. I hope others with problems/issues like this will talk about their experiences and hopefully will also benefit from this discussion. Please try to go through the links provided, since I don’t want to keep repeating things.

Also, please don’t take what I say personally (and that applies to ALL my responses). I am not going to focus on just Aniduan’s situation, even though I may refer to it at times. This analysis is general. One will be able to get a good understanding of Buddha Dhamma by carefully going through the links provided and, if needed, searching and reading other relevant posts.

It is always good to start by looking at the “root cause” of any problem. Instead of dealing with each issue as they come up, we need to have a good understanding of why we all face situations like the one described by Aniduan.

1. Nothing happens without one or more causes. On the other hand, even if CAUSES are there, for something to happen, suitable CONDITIONS must be there too. This is a key principle in Buddha Dhamma; see, “Do Things Just Happen? – The Hidden Causes”. By the way, this is also called Paticca Samuppada.
2. All life experiences we go through can be traced back to our MINDS: What we think, speak, and do, will have consequences. This is why “sankhara” come at the beginning of a paticca samuppada cycle. This is another key point most people do not understand, but I hope will become clear as we proceed.
3. When something happens to us (injury, major sickness, etc), we tend to think it is just “bad luck”. That is wrong. “We reap what we sow”. We can see this clearly when we look at wider world. Think about a deer being eaten alive by a tiger. It is not like tiger kills the deer and eats it; it is really eaten alive. All these are due to kamma vipaka. But it is important to realize that kamma vipaka are NOT deterministic; see, “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.

– Kamma vipaka are not deterministic because they can be avoided by understanding the importance of the CONDITIONS. We can do that as humans. But animals cannot.

4. Furthermore, we can go one more step and make existing kamma beeja (which are responsible for bringing kamma vipaka) effectively “duds”, as we discussed recently: “Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya“.
5. What happens in general is that when we suffer due to a bad kamma vipaka, we tend to respond in ways where we do more bad kamma and accumulate more kamma beeja, which can bring more vipaka, and so on.

– The Buddha said this is why our samsaric journey never ends: “kamma vipaka vaddanti, vipako kamma sambhavo”. If we need to break this cycle, we need to understand how to make existing kamma beeja “effectively duds”: That is the key to end of ALL future suffering or Nibbana. This is why the post in #4 above is very important.

6. However, well before we work towards ending sansaric suffering, we need to figure out how to deal with “short term suffering”, like the one Aniduan described. We need to have a ‘peace of mind” and also the right mindset to grasp deeper Dhamma concepts like Paticca Samuppada and Tilakkhana.
7. Here we need to do two things: Make conditions for “good kamma beeja” to bring good kamma vipaka and also avoid conditions for “bad kamma beeja” to bring bad vipaka. I suggest reading the posts in #1 and #3 above, and in “Pattana Dhamma”.
   – This happened when you had a peaceful mind for a couple of weeks when you were immersed in Dhamma, while reading posts here. But then conditions changed when you had a bad encounter with someone. The key is to learn how to control one’s emotions when faced with such unexpected harsh encounters. This is done by cultivating Satipatthana (thinking about the bad consequences).

Let me close this post by making a suggestion to Aniduan. When someone says or does something to aggravate you, try to “let it go”, i.e, try not to accumulate more kamma beeja; furthermore, retaliation can worsen the situation and makes one’s mind “heated” and uncomfortable. This is hard to do in the beginning, but when one sees the benefits, it will become easier.
– Another is of course to try to avoid interacting with such “annoying people” if possible.
– Yet another is to do one’s best to avoid CONDITIONS that could “germinate existing bad kamma beeja”. For example, drinking too much leads to bad decision making, not doing enough exercises/not eating healthy foods can lead to health problems etc (these are of course not directed to Aniduan).

I can go into more details if needed, and we can also discuss any other related issues not discussed above and related questions/ideas from others who may have their own experiences.

[Lal]

y not said: “But the children of the devas – are they these same ones who take on a jati there from other realms – pulled in there, as it were, into the ‘lap of the devi’through their intercourse, of whatever nature that may be.”

There is a danger in trying to analyze phenomena in other realms in terms of what happens in the human realm. We don’t need to, and we cannot ever, figure out such details. Furthermore, that does not help with stopping future suffering.
– For example, since a zygote is not involved in the birth of a deva, we cannot say even intercourse plays any role in births there. Actually, I inadvertently said “appearing on the lap of a devi“, but it could be the “lap of a deva” too. So, I myself got thinking along the lines of the human realm. These may be interesting and intriguing, but it is a waste of time to try to analyze in detail. As I did in this case, there is a danger in saying something incorrect. I revised my above post to say “devi/deva“.

[Lal]

Hi Aniduan,

You said: “But since yesterday the anger and hateful thoughts came back although not as intense as before but to a lesser degree. So to let go of this negativity I countered those thoughts by looking at the bigger picture, I started thinking along the lines of 1) This anger/hate will become my Gathi and I will end up in the lower realms..”

The issue is a bit more complex. We do not form gathi in days or weeks, even though an intense experience can point one towards forming a new habit (the closest English translation for gathi is habit/character). Again, I am not sure how may posts on gathi at the website you have read.
– Normally, one has certain set of gathi formed over many, many lives in the past. These are also closely connected to anusaya. Again, I am not sure whether you are familiar with the term anusaya. Anyway, if you can provide a brief summary of your understanding about these concepts, I can suggest a few things.

I guess you meant to say: “2) Every human is stuck in this Samsara and tried to show compassion towards them but my hate/anger won’t go away. The anger/hate is mostly due to how people were mean, selfish and things that happened in the past.”

Here it seems that “an angry gathi” that you had was triggered by some event. Is that right? Did someone do something to make you angry? Also, have you had such occurrences in the past several years, where anger was triggered by some incident?
– Myself and others hopefully will be able to comment more based on your response.

[Lal]

Sounds are important in Pāli:

Plural of dēva is dēvā; plural of sankhāra is sankhārā.

Feminine of dēva is dēvi; Manussa is huaman: feminine of purisa (male) is itthi (female).

Yes. Dēva belong to kāma loka, and they engage in sex. However, children are born instantaneously (ōpapātika). It is said that equivalent of of a human 16-year-old appears in the lap of a dēvi/dēva. They don’t show aging like humans, but when it close to the end of the lifetime “aging shows”, and it becomes apparent that they are close to death. 

Brahma realms are above the realms of the kāma loka (including human and dēva realms).

Brahmās (actually the plural of brahma is brahmā), are born there because they have seen the adeenava (unfruitfulness) in sense pleasures. So, there are no sense pleasures (smell, taste, and touch including sex) in brahma realms.

Therefore, there are no male/female brahmā. They don’t have sex organs, and are born ōpapātika. Of course, they do not have dense bodies at all. Dēvā have “physical bodies”, even though much finer than ours. But brahmā do not have any type of “physical bodies”, i.e., no karaja kaya.

Those who attain various levels of Ariya/anariya jhāna are born in brahma realms. The following phrase always appears in suttās (actually the plural of sutta is suttā) describing jhāna: “vivicca kāmēhi, vivicca akusala dhammēhi..” or “one gets to a jhāna by “abandoning kāma rāga and akusala kamma“”.

Now this “abandonment” is just “SUPPRESSION” for anariya jhānā; those with anariya jhāna  still have “kāma rāga anusaya“. Therefore, they will come back to the human realm, and could be born in the apayās later on. But those who cultivated Ariya jhānā do not come back, since kāma rāga anusaya is removed; in terms of the recent post,”Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya“, the “hook for kāma rāga” has been removed.

[Lal]

Y not asked: “Again, who is it who ‘with iddhi powers can pull the manōmaya kaya out of the physical body and who does the ‘separating his/her own mental body (gandhabba) from the physical body’? “

No matter how many times you ask, that does not change the answer: It is the “one” who perceives “me” that comes out of the physical body. We cannot think of this in conventional terms. Both views “there is a self” and “there is no self” are NOT correct for anyone before the Arahant stage.

As long as there are causes and conditions, there will be an entity perceiving a “self”, which is the result of those causes and conditions; but that “self” keeps changing because those causes and conditions keep changing. This is why I used the term “dynamic self”. There is an entity that perceives a “self”, until the Arahant stage.

It is the “one” who perceives “me” that comes out of the physical body, which is just an inert “shell”. One could call it “the mental self” if that helps. If I try to explain it anymore, a lot more people may get confused.

In ultimate reality, there is no “person”. Whatever one perceives to be “myself” keeps evolving: could be human in this life, could be an animal or a deva in the next. Even in this life, that “person” changes all the time (to put it in another way, one’s gati can change).

This is a deep issue to comprehend. One thing I can say to everyone is that answers to these kinds of questions become clear when one focuses on the practice. These cannot be resolved JUST by reading. Reading the correct material is IMPORTANT, but contemplating and comprehending is EVEN MORE critical. However, in order to comprehend things, it is first NECESSARY to set the background for the mind by cultivating sila; see, “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, sīla, Samādhi“.

When one gets rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi things become easier to grasp. When one starts comprehending Tilakkhana, the change will be huge.

Of course, I am not judging you or anyone else, because I don’t have any idea about each individual. But I hope everyone will read the above carefully and contemplate on it. Just reading this website will not be fully productive.

P.S.The “mental body” above actually has a trace of matter: hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa (called kammaja kaya), and also a very fine body.

P.P.S. (6/13/18): Most important thing is that citta (thoughts) arise in the mental body (gandhabba), specifically at the hadaya vatthu. So, that is where the perception of “me” is.

[Lal]

@inflib: Yes. The Buddha said that the best way to overcome cravings is to think about their bad consequences.

inflib said: “So, would this be a form of kusala kamma as it is eliminating defilements? Does it matter that I’m the only one benefiting from it?”
– Of course. Each person can only cleanse one’s own mind.

Johnny_Lim said: “Does it imply that during the last moments of death of an Arahant, he/she would not see any nimitta? Or does he/she still see nimitta but is unfazed by it?”.
– It is the latter. An arammana (or nimitta) comes to the mind based on what types of kamma beeja are there. An Arahant would not grasp any.
A Sotapanna‘s mind would not grasp any nimitta corresponding to a birth in the lowest four realms.

[Lal]

This should be clear from my previous set of answers.
It is difficult for most people to imagine a “me” without a solid body. One who has experienced OBE (Out-of-Body Experience) in a heart operation would know exactly what it means.

[Lal]

Just published two posts related to this question. These two posts are VERY important since they also clarify kammakkhaya (and removal of asava/anusaya and gati):

Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya

Kukkuravatika Sutta (Majjhima Nikāya 57) – Kammakkhaya

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