[Lal]

y not: It is said that there were millions of devas and brahmas there to listen to that discourse, and many of them attained various stages of magga phala. Of course, a human would have seen only the five ascetics there.
– And it is said that (I cannot give a reference offhand. It is probably in the Vinaya Piṭaka) many devas can fit into a space of a hole in a needle. It is not possible for us to comprehend these things.

Those higher beings are not visible to us, but if they want they can show themselves (they can even take the form of humans).

The Buddha did not have to assist them, even though he was of course aware of them (but probably not the five ascetics).

In a related story in the Tipitaka is the following account: One of those “unseen beings” explained the Dhamma that he learned from the Buddha to another who had not heard it. Their discussion took place over a house where a woman by the name of Kali was feeding her baby at night. She “heard” their whole conversation and attained the Sotapanna stage. She is supposed to be the second human who attained the Sotapanna stage that night (Ven. Kondanna was the first).
– Now it was not the case that those two beings conversed in a human language. It the the “sanna” that she was able to perceive; basically the ideas. Again, I am not sure exactly how that happens. The closest analogy I can think about is how we “know” what people in our dreams say.

More details at: HEMAVATA SUTTA by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw.

[Lal]

upekkha100: Good questions. I revised the post to address three of them. Also, I will soon publish a post on how tanha actually grows with one’s upadana via vaci sankhara.

” Is saṃkhittena a form of sankhara dukkha? Is the “sam” in saṃkhittena same as san?”

Yes. It could be connected to “san”. It is “san” + “khittena”, where is “san” is what we accumulate for sansaric journey; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“. “Khitta” is actions; see, “Does the First Noble Truth Describe only Suffering?“.

So, we create our own dukkha by doing things to accumulate “san” (with icca and tanha).

This is what is also meant by “panca upadanakkhandha” willingly embracing the pancakkhandha. We do this by generating vaci and kaya sankhara.

In most translations, though, “samkhittena” is taken to mean “in brief” or “in summary”.

So, both could be valid.

[Lal]

I think the confusion here may be removed by the following facts:

1. A given “person” attains magga phala in the following sequence: Sotapanna Anugami, Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant.
2. Among DIFFERENT PEOPLE, it is not possible to say even an Anagami WILL attain Arahanthood before a Sakadagami or a Sotapanna, or that a Sakadagami WILL attain a higher magga phala before a Sotapanna.
3. It is possible that even a normal human may attain the Arahantood before any other who may have attained a magga phala at or below the Anagami stage before him/her.
   – For example, there are Anagamis (in those brahma realms that are reserved for Anagamis) who had attained the Anagami stage during Buddha Sasana of PREVIOUS Buddhas. During the lifetime of the Gotama Buddha, millions of people attained the Arahant stage.
4. Those time restrictions provide the MAXIMUM time it will take a person at a GIVEN intermediate stage of Nibbana to attain the Arahanthood. It does not mean a given person will take that much time. There have been some who went through all stages and attained the Arahanthood during a single discourse by the Buddha.

Does that resolve the issue, or are there other related issues that I did not see?

[Lal]

First, Siebe has written to me and confirmed that his post got deleted when he tried to revise it later. I think we had discussed this some time back. Please do not try to revise a post after about an hour. It WILL get deleted. That is how the forum is set up.

Upekkha100 said, “So does this mean anatta’s definition of “does not hold any ultimate truth” could be said differently as “does not hold any ultimate happiness/ultimate solution”.

Maybe it is time to take a step back and look at the big picture.
Anicca, dukkha, anatta are characteristics of the EXISTENCE in this world of 31 realms. Whatever we do to seek happiness within this existence WILL NOT work, we will ALWAYS end up in suffering (in the long term), and THEREFORE one will only become helpless.
– That last part is one version of the anatta nature: “one will only become helpless”.

There is a second way to describe the anatta nature: At Buddha’s time, there were brahmins who believed that a human could get to the “atta” state, which basically meant a state that is ever-lasting, not subject to viparinama nature, and is the highest attainment. Some thought that such a state is there in the brahma world.
– The Buddha explained that such a state does not exist anywhere in the wider world of 31 realms, “i.e., “na atta” or “anatta”. The only such state of “atta” is Nibbana, which is not in this world.

We can state anatta in a third way: No matter what we do to attain a permanent happiness in this world, it will be fruitless at the end. Therefore, all those efforts were made without realizing the true nature of this world, or the TRUTH about this world. That is really what is meant by “does not hold any ultimate truth”. That statement refers to ALL ACTIVITIES humans do when Buddha Dhamma is not known: the truth is not known. When someone is doing a foolish thing, we say “What he is doing is useless. He does not realize the truth”. It is in that sense we say this world is of anatta nature.
– Now, Buddha Dhamma can help one get to the “atta” state or Nibbana. But once it is attained, even Buddha Dhamma is of no use. Even though it is the only real truth, it has served its purpose. So, even Buddha Dhamma is without use AFTER attaining the Arahanthood.

So, anatta nature is multi-faceted. One person may see one aspect, and another may see a different aspect.

I am glad to see that upekkha100 is trying hard to “get to the bottom of it”. Those are good questions. But we need to keep in mind that it becomes much easier to grasp these concepts when one actually starts practicing. I am not sure whether upekkha100 has started on that, or where he/she is on the Path. I do not know about that aspect regarding many people who post at the forum.

One’s practice starts with staying away from dasa akusala, and it is completed at the Arahant stage when one gets rid of micca ditthi (one of the dasa akusala) completely by fully comprehending Tilakkhana.
– It is important also to realize that micca ditthi mentioned above does not belong to the 10 types of micca ditthi that one must get rid of first in the mundane eightfold path; see, “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)“.

[Lal]

upekkha100 said: “I think there may be some technical problems going on, maybe my full posts are not appearing and others’ comments are not fully appearing for me, I’ve seen others make similar comments before.”

I don’t think there are any technical problems. Please be specific.
However, I noticed today that Siebe seems to have posted a comment in the “General Forum”, but no post is there. Did you delete the post, Siebe?

If anyone has a problem in posting, please send me an email ([email protected]) with the post and I will post it myself.

Regarding the “ultimate truth” point that upekkha100 is talking about:

This could be a problem with expressing one’s idea about “ultimate truth in this world”, “ultimate solution to the problem of suffering in this world” and “ultimate happiness”. The first two involve “this world of 31 realms”. The last is the end result or Nibbana.

upekkha100 said: “But as it was pointed out by Lal, it is Nibbana that is the ultimate truth. Therefore not even Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate truth”.

It would have been better if I said “Nibbana is the ultimate solution. Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate truth in this world“.

Nibbana is NOT in this world. We live in “this world”. To get to Nibbana, we need Buddha Dhamma, which is the ultimate truth in this world. But once one attains the Arahanthood, there is no need for Buddha Dhamma either. It has done its part.

This is why the Buddha said that once one attains the Arahanthood, one should give up any attachment to Buddha Dhamma too. He said it would be like carrying the boat after crossing a river using the boat.

[Lal]

upekkha100: Your first quote is not correct:
“1) “Hence Truths that deal with concepts that exist in reality in an ultimate sense eg. consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasika). aggregates (khanda) are Ultimate or Absolute Truths.”

There are 4 ultimate realities: citta, cetasika, rupa, and Nibbana; see, “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma – Introduction“.

The first 3 belong to this world, and the last one, Nibbana, is the ultimate truth.

There are no contradictions.

[Lal]

Thank you, Tien, for sharing with us your experience.

I or anyone else can neither confirm or deny anyone’s declaration. In the Maha Parinibbana Sutta, the Buddha stated that it is fine to declare one’s attaining of the Sotapanna stage, if one is confident of it. That is mainly for the benefit of others: to illustrate that it can be achieved.

On the other hand, one must be careful too. Declaring an attainment without actually having it can become an obstruction to the progress on the Path. If a bhikkhu does that he will no longer belong to the order of the bhikkhus. It is called a parajika or an offense.

I have talked about my progress from time to time. Even though I believe that I made it to the Sotapanna stage several years ago, I am still working to become free of the kama loka. Responsibilities with the “householder life” makes it harder, and even maintaining the website may be affecting the progress to some extent. I am trying to strike a balance. But each person is different. Some can make rapid progress, simply because they may have made progress in past lives.

I do believe that there are many with magga phala these days and some could be Anagamis or even higher (especially in Sri Lanka due to Waharaka Thero’s and his disciples’ efforts). We just don’t know.

Even if one is not certain about a specific magga phala, one can certainly discuss one’s progress, i.e., whether one has seen a significant change in one’s life. Some may have gotten rid some bad habits for sure. If one is willing to share such experiences, that will be beneficial to others: That Buddha Dhamma is not just a theory. One can truly experience the benefits.

P.S. This topic belongs in the “Personal Experiences” forum. I may move it there sometime, when I get a chance. Please look under that forum if it is no longer here.

[Lal]

y not: From that sutta: “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgado­samohā­naṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.”.
It says a Sakadagami will come back just once to THIS LOKA (meaning kama loka. Anagami is never coming back to kama loka). However, a Sakadagami has much less kama raga/patigha compared to a Sotapanna, and thus is expected to be reborn only in a deva realm.
– A Sakadagami has removed vatthu kama (the desire to OWN things that give sense pleasures).
– An Anagami has removed both vatthu kama and kilesa kama (any desire for sense pleasures).
– A Sotapanna has both vatthu kama and kilesa kama.

All three categories of Sotapanna will be born in the human world (manussa loka) one or more times.

The rebirth for a Sakadagami is also explained in, “The Way to Nibbana – Removal of Asavas” (see #2). I am sure I talked about this other posts, but do not remember offhand what those are.

[Lal]

To add to what SengKiat stated, we can see it from another way.

The ultimate truths are in the Four Noble Truths. The First Noble Truth says: As long as one is in this world, one will be subjected to suffering. The cause for that suffering is in the Second Noble Truth (cravings due to avijja), and the Third Noble Truth says that suffering can be ended by removing that cause (getting rid of both cravings and avijja), and the Forth Noble Truth explains the way to get there (the Noble Eightfold Path).

Let us look at how the Buddha summarized the First Noble Truth about suffering in his first sutta: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:

Idam kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkham ariyasaccam:

jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhāṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ—saṃkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā.

Translated: Bhikkhus, What is the Noble Truth of Suffering?

“Birth is suffering, getting old is suffering, getting sick is suffering, dying is suffering. Having to associate with things that one does not like is suffering and having to separate from those things one likes is suffering. If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering – Doing worldly activities (samkittena) to get all those things one craves for (pancupadanakkhandha) is suffering.”

When one attains Nibbana, all future suffering will be stopped.

After explaining the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha declared that he has indeed attained that “ultimate unconditioned state of happiness” and the present life will be his last life:

In the middle of the sutta: “Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”

Translated: “The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘unshakable is the liberation of my mind. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence.’”

That statement says the outcome of the discovery of that knowledge. The solution to future suffering. It is the ending of the rebirth process.

In the next regular post, I will explain the importance of understanding pancupadanakkhandha (panca upadana khandha). When we crave for things in this world, that is pancupadanakkhandha. That is different from pancakkhandha.

Of course, attaining Nibbana (Arahanthood) is not easy, and in fact sounds scary at the beginning (to stop existence?). But the point is that existence IN THIS WORLD is filled with suffering. Even if one get births in deva/brahma realms with mostly happiness, that will not last, and one WILL be born in the apayas filled with suffering. One needs to get to the unconditioned state (that without causes) in order to attain the ultimate death-less state. All four thing that are stated as suffering in the verse above (birth, getting old, diseases, and death) are not there; see, “Nibbana“.

However, one needs to get there in a step-by-step way: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“. Even though we should keep the ultimate goal in the back of our minds, our focus should be on making the next step in the Path. With each step in the right direction, we are getting closer to the ultimate happiness (and we can experience that too with niramisa sukha).

[Lal]

“From a teacher i understood Nibbana may not be called nicca, sukha and atta as opposed to anicca, dukkha and anatta..”

We have discussed this many times, and it is fully explained here:”Nibbana“.

If you agree with that teacher, that is fine with me. Please don’t raise this again in this forum, unless you have evidence from the Tipitaka that anything in those posts in the link above is not correct. If you have such evidence, you are welcome to present them. Just refer to the specific post and bullet # where I have stated something that is not correct.

It is irrelevant what any teacher or anyone says, unless evidence from the Tipitaka is presented.

[Lal]

To summarize what y not said (or the summary of the sutta) is to indicate the nine type of persons who are free of the apayas, but have not attained the Arahant stage yet:

There are five types of Anagamis, Sakadagami, and three types of Sotapanna.

So, the question is what are the differences among the five types of Anagamis and the three types of Sotapannas.

Those are just differences in understanding of the true nature of this world (anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, rogata,etc, where the most important first three are called Tilakkhana). I don’t think it is worthwhile to analyze in detail (even if possible) what those differences are.

Even if one does not know any of these details (even what Tilakkhana are in words), one may be able to make progress and attain magga phala by comprehending the unfruitful AND dangerous nature of this world. That is the critical point: understanding the true nature of this world.

At the time of the Buddha, there was no written material for people to read. Many of them did not even know these terms. They just went to listen to the Buddha and WHILE LISTENING understood these characteristics of nature, and attained magga phala at various levels.

This is a key point that is being discussed at this topic too: “Discourse 1 – Nicca, Sukha, Atta“.

P.S. Of course, it is always good to have more details. If someone can explain those nine stages in more detail, that would be appreciated.

[Lal]

Sorry. I had been busy and did not upekkha100’s latest comment.

Tilakkhana (ti + lakkhana) are three major CHARACTERISTICS or properties of the real nature of this world. There are several other characteristics too: asubha (not beneficial), rogato (subject to disease), etc.

These characteristics are understood gradually when one starts on the Path. Significant improvements (or jumps) in understanding happens at the stages of magga phala.
– For example, at the Anagami stage one realizes Tilakkhana to a more deeper level where one’s mind has realized that engaging in activities for sense pleasures is meaningless.
– However, one cannot get there without understanding Tilakkhana at a lower level at the Sotapanna stage.

This is what was discussed in the recent post: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”

Another point is that there are many ways to describe each of anicca, dukkha, anatta characteristics. For a given person, one aspect of anatta may be easily understood than another aspect.
– For example, “atta” can mean a state that is “unchanging (no death), no unexpected change (no viparinama), and is the ultimate happiness”. What the Buddha is said such a state DOES NOT EXIST in this world. Thus as long as one is bound to this world of 31 realms, one BECOMES “anatta” (helpless or subject to suffering).
– Nibbana is THAT STATE and one needs to overcome the sansaric bonds to this world (ten samyojana) in order to get there. That is real “atta” state and one who gets there becomes a true “attā”.

This post discusses that aspect: “Anatta – the Opposite of Which Atta?“.

Akvan summarized what I said above: “2) When it is said that anatta becomes completely true for an arahanth, I think it means that only when a person reaches the arahanth stage does one fully comprehend anatta.”

[Lal]

“The way I see it, is that a puthujjana needs pariyatti and paṭipatti to get to paṭivedha(magga phala, the Sotapanna stage).”

That is right. I mentioned this in the second part of my reply. Both learning AND discipline (with a significant effort) are needed to progress in the mundane eightfold path (i.e., for a puthujjana).

But once one gets to the Sotapanna stage, discipline comes (to an extent) AUTOMATICALLY with the grasping of the Tilakkhana (but he/she still has not craving for sense pleasures). One does not need to think about the bad consequences of such highly immoral actions (births in the apayas). One simply would not be able to do such immoral actions. One does not have think: “If I do this I might be born in the apayas”.

It is sort of like the following. A child sees a red hot iron rod as a beautiful thing and may think about touching it. The child has to keep reminding him/herself that Mom has said not to touch it, because it can burn.
– But an adult knows that it can burn, and would not even think about touching it.

[Lal]

“My confusion is in regards to the similar meanings given for both sankhara and dhamma. If I remember correctly, some of the descriptions like “without substance, no safety, meatless bones” for all sankhara, were also given for all dhamma. ”

Hopefully, the confusion can be resolved with the following example.

Apple trees are also trees. But only an apple tree can produce apples. Just because apple trees belong to the category of trees, any other tree cannot produce apples.

In the same way, sankhara are part of dhamma. But just because sankhara are of anicca nature (cannot be maintained to one’s satisfaction, like a meat-less bone, etc), other dhammas do not have such anicca nature. But sankhara also have anatta nature (without essence), because they are also included in Dhammas.

In set theory, apple trees are a “subset” or “a part of” of the set of trees. The set of trees is the bigger set. The set of apple trees is a smaller set that is within the larger set of trees. Only apple trees can produce apples. But apple trees also have other characteristics of trees: roots, trunk, leaves, etc.

Does that help?

[Lal]

Upekkha100: Yes. You have grasped it well.

However, regarding the last paragraph, this is not true: “Everything that can be attributed to sabbe sankhara(no substance,bone without meat, no safety, no predictability/stability) can also be attributed to sabbe dhamma as well.”

• It is only “sabbe sankhara anicca”. Sankhara are like meat-less bones, only lead to suffering.

• But nama gotta, which are not sankhara but are Dhamma, do not lead to any suffering. However, one can get to suffering by generating sankhara about nama gotta.

• Sankhara are all mental. Nama gotta are memory records, and exist independent of one’s mind. Of course one can recall nama gotta.

• Nama gotta are of course stable. But they are also of no use eventually, just as even Buddha Dhamma (which also does not change) needs to be given up to attain Nibbana (after the Anagami stage, in order to get to the Arahant stage).

• On the other hand, all dhamma are not permanent. It just says, “Sabbe Dhamma anatta”; they are all of no use, ultimately, at the Arahant stage. But we do need nama gotta, as well as Buddha Dhamma, to get there.

May be I did not fully understand that last part of your question?

[Author]

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