[Lal]

Mahendran sent me a desana and a writeup on Devanussati. Since both are in Sinhala, no point in providing the links.
– However, Devanussati does not involve encouraging people to seek births in deva realms.
– However, one must do deeds while cultivating Noble Path, in order to purify the mind and such punna kamma do lead to births in human and higher realms.

Mahendran wrote:” my confusion is due to the fact that I am under the impression that all the Devas are good. ”

I have provided evidence that all devas are not good: “What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?”
– Mara Devaputta is in the highest deva realm, yet he tried to put obstacles in the way for the Buddha, because he did not want people to attain Nibbana.

Mahendran wrote: ” it is said that bhavana yogis need to think of the five characteristics of the Devas, ( sadhdha , sila, shrutha, thyaaga and pragngna)..”

That is the root cause of the problem. While some devas have them (especially those with magga phala), not all devas have them. But of course, they received that good birth due to at least some of those qualities in a PREVIOUS life; see below.
– If Mara Devaputta had pragngna (the correct Pali word is panna, meaning wisdom about the true nature of this world), then he would not have tried to block people from practicing Buddha Dhamma.
– Some Bhikkhus in Sri Lanka try to highlight the benefits in births in deva worlds. That is exactly what Mara Devaputta tries to do too.
– While it is good to realize that deva births are good births due to good deeds, one must realize the futility of getting deva births in the long run. Most devas indulge in sense pleasures and are reborn as animals (many of the beautiful birds had deva births in the previous life).

The key point to understand is that devas are another type of living beings, with more sense pleasures than humans. They get that birth mainly due to dana and sila (giving and moral living).

• There is nothing wrong with giving merits or even making offerings to devas.
• But one should NOT seek REFUGE in any living being, other than Sangha (By the way, bhikkhus do not necessarily belong to Sangha. Only Noble Persons belong to Sangha and some bhikkus are Noble Persons; of course, one should ALWAYS pay respects to bhikkhus because they do represent the Buddha Sasana).
• One should take refuge only in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.

Mahendran wrote: “So if Mara likes to entice people for pleasures and also doesn’t know about the consequences of such pleasures, does he lack some of those five qualities?”

Of course. The birth as Mara Devaputta was due to good kamma. But Mara himself has bad qualities.
– It is no different from some humans have very bad qualities, i.e., they kill, steal, etc. They also have relatively good births due to PAST ACTIONS.

One’s current birth is due to past kamma.
– If one is now engaged in bad kamma, one will get bad births in the future. If one is engaged in good kamma, one will get good births in the future. That is what we all have been doing for an infinite time.
– The problem is that most of those births are bad (in the apayas), because living beings, by nature, tend to do bad things to get sense pleasures.

When one realizes this fact, one would try to get out of the rebirth process as explained to Māra himself by upacālā bhikkhunī: “Upacālā Sutta (SN5.7)”
– English translation: “7. Upacala“.

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Jittananto

[Lal]

@ Mahendran: I can comment on that only if I can read/hear about that reasoning. If you can publish a link, I can take a look at it.

[Lal]

Mahendran wrote: “Now the other question that comes to my mind is that how can Mara and other Devas have influence on us? Is it some kind of Devine power? Is it like the belief system of Hinduism where they have so many Gods to whom they worship asking for favours, and offering things with transferring merits? Is it the same Brahma and Deva realms Hinduism refer to as well?”

This “having infleunce” should NOT be looked at as “having power over a human”.
It is more like “being able to persuade”. If you read the thread from the beginning, this is what I have emphasized.

For example, when a given person has a weakness for drinking, it is easy to entice him to “have a drink”. When a person has “rough character qualities”, it is easy to get to him to participate in beating a another person, etc.

“Good” Devas and brahmas are attracted to people with moral character.
“Bad” beings of any kind are attracted to people with bad moral character, AND they can make them do more bad things.
– So, not only devas/brahama, but humans also can influence other humans. This is how kids join gangs or become drug addicts, for example. If the parents instill good character qualities in them and teach them morals, they will not be able to be influenced like that.

Yeos wrote” “One will never be free from death”…Neither from life ?”

To be free from death in this world is to be free from birth, because any birth in this world of 31 realms leads to death without exception.

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[Lal]

Thanks, Christian.
But it would be good if the Pali version with Akvan’s quote can be found.

P.S. I think I just found it. I need some time to go through it:
7. Satta­ka­pugga­la­paññatti

I need to publish a post today and have some travel tomorrow to get ready for. So, it may take a couple of days.
– In the meantime, if anyone can come with a consistent explanation please do so.

[Lal]

Hi Akvan,

You wrote: “In the Puggala Pannatti ekabījī, kolaṅkolo and sattak¬khat¬tu¬paramo has been explained. Here all three have been explained as “thinnang sanyojananang parikkaya sotapnno hoti…”

Do you have a link for that?

[Lal]

Yeos wrote: “” But isn’t Mara the deva whose “specialty” consists in arising great lust in people ?”

Mahendran wrote: “Is there a relationship between Mara and death? If he is a Deva what is his role and why was he born in that realm? I always misunderstood Mara as ” thought of death” in one’s mind.”

Yes. Both perceptions are out there. The first one more accurate than the second. The second is also accurate in a deeper sense as I discuss below.

As I mentioned above, Mara Devaputta is in the highest deva realm. He has anything that he desires, and he of course enjoys all those sense pleasures. He cannot understand why people want to attain Nibbana. His mindset is that if one attains Nibbana, one will have to give up all such pleasures.
– So, he tries to entice people to indulge in sense pleasures.
– Of course he does not understand that all such “pleasures” will come to an end, and once one is born in an apaya, it is very hard to get out.

But the perception that Mara Devaputta is DIRECTLY associated with death and suffering is not correct, at least in the mundane sense. He is not trying cause direct physical harm to people, or trying to get people to commit murders, as some beings do.

However, in the lokottara sense, Mara can be associated with death, since if one follows him, one will never be able to be free from the cycle of birth and death (or the rebirth process), where one is subjected to much more suffering than any periods of pleasures like when born in such deva realms.
– So, “death” in the lokottara sense is associated with not being able to attain Nibbana.
– Since Mara is trying to prevent people from attaining Nibbana, he can be called an “agent of death”, as the Buddha himself stated. One will never be free from death, if one falls under Mara’s influence.

It is possible that the references Siebe has given may have some of these descriptions.

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Jittananto

[Lal]

Yes. The description of y not is right.

Just as people with same gati (gathi) tend to associate with each other, many unseen beings tend to be attracted to people with similar gati; see, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)“.

So, devas and even brahmas may “help out” or at least give their blessings to those humans with high moral standards like theirs.

On the other hand, beings from lower realms (with bad intentions) tend to be attracted to humans with similar “bad gati”. They may influence those with “weak minds” to do immoral things. So, there could be truth to some stories where people claim that they heard voices asking them to kill certain people.

Of course, there are some devas in higher realms, like the Mara Devaputta, who may harass those humans who are making an effort to attain Nibbana.
– Mara would not encourage people to do bad, immoral things. He just wants people to to moral deeds and to become a deva like him.
– Mara does not understand that his life as a deva of a higher realm will end one day, and thus he may be born in an apaya in the future.

In any case, it ALWAYS good to give merits to ALL BEINGS.
However, “worshipping devas or brahmas” is not in Buddha Dhamma.

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[Lal]

OK, y not. I must have somehow missed the bigger point.

It is a good thing that you mentioned that last verse. I did not pay attention to that either!:
‘Na tāvāyaṃ, sāriputta, dhammapariyāyo paṭibhāsi bhikkhūnaṃ bhikkhunīnaṃ upāsakānaṃ upāsikānaṃ. Taṃ kissa hetu? Māyimaṃ dhamma­pariyā­yaṃ sutvā pamādaṃ āhariṃsūti. Api ca mayā, sāriputta, dhammapariyāyo pañhā­dhip­pā­yena bhāsito”ti.’

It should be actually translated as:
Sāriputta, I did not give this explanation of the teaching to the monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen until now.  Why is that? For I didn’t want those who have progressed to lower phala stages to slow down their efforts. However, I have explained it now, in order to answer your question.”

So, this seems to be the first instance where the Buddha explained how long it would take to attain Arahanthood from the lower phala stages. Basically, one may think that as long as one is free from the apayas, there is no urgency to proceed further. In fact, as I have pointed out before, some bhikkhus needed to be admonished by the Buddha not to “slow down”.

[Lal]

I just came across a sutta that provides a more detailed description of Noble Persons. This is “Saupādi­sesa­ Sutta (AN 9.12)“.

• I will try to write a post on it a later, but the key points are discussed below.

Five kinds of Anāgāmis (of course including those Arahant Anugamis):

-“So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā antarā­pari­nib­bāyī hoti“.
-“So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā upahac­ca­pari­nib­bāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā asaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sasaṅ­khā­ra­pari­nib­bāyī hoti“.
– “So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā uddhaṃsoto hoti akaniṭṭhagāmī“.

They all have overcome the first five samyojana of sakkāya ditthi, vicikiccā, and silabbata parāmāsa, kāma rāga, patigha. 

• The first one was discussed at the forum: “Antara Parinibbana“.
• The fifth category are those born in the Akanittha brahma realm, the highest realm reserved for the Anāgāmis; see, “31 Realms of Existence“.
• Therefore, I suspect that the second, third, fourth types belong to those born in the other brahma realms reserved for the Anāgāmis.

Then there is the Noble Person with the Sakadāgāmī phala (including those Anāgāmi Anugamis):

• “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgado­samohā­naṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.”
  Translated: “With the ending of three fetters (saṃyojanā), and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion,  a Sakadāgāmī will come back to this world only once to deva realms”.

Lastly, there is the Sōtapanna and two types of Sōtapanna Anugāmi:
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā ekabījī hoti, ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā kolaṅkolo hoti, dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.
– “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattak­khat­tu­paramo hoti, sattak­khat­tu­paramaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti”.

Translated:
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, an ekabījī will be reborn just one time in a human existence (bhava), then make an end of suffering”.
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, a kolaṅkolo will be  two or three bhava then make an end of suffering”.
– “With the ending of three saṃyojanā, a sattak­khat­tu­paramo has most seven bhava among devas and humans and then make an end of suffering”.

Thus it is clear that an ekabījī is a Sōtapanna. 

The last two must be the two types of Sōtapanna Anugāmis discussed in the post “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“:
“dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī.

I am not sure yet how kolaṅkolo and sattak­khat­tu­paramo categories are to be identified with dhammānusārī and saddhānusārī categories.

However, the number of remaining bhava before attaining the Arahanthood is more precise in this classification of ekabījī, kolaṅkolo, and sattak­khat­tu­paramo.

[Lal]

“If Nibbana was created due to the eightfold path or some practise it would be conditioned.”

It is essential to realize the following:
– Nibbana is NOT CREATED.
– Nibbana is ATTAINED when all defilements or CAUSES (greed, anger, ignorance) are REMOVED from one’s mind.
– The Eightfold Path is the WAY TO REMOVE defilements.

When one removes ALL CAUSES then one ends up with the UNCAUSED (i.e., no causes remain) and UNCONDITIONED (Nibbana).

The CAUSES are greed, anger, ignorance.

P.S. We do accumulate punna kamma (and cultivate the three good roots of alobha, adosa, amoha) while we are on the Path. But at the end, at the Arahant stage, all those are also given up when wisdom (panna) reaches its peak.
– Therefore, the net result is that when panna is at peak, one sees the futility of even a trace of anything to do with the 31 realms. That is the “full Nibbana”.

[Lal]

Siebe’s questions:
“Yesterday on tv was the case of a mother who killed her two children. She was always very caring. But some day developed a depression and took medicine, a antidepressend. Probably these medicine have triggered agression and her violence against her own children.”

If someone commits an immoral deed while not been aware of it (say, becoming insane or while sleepwalking), then the Buddha had said that there are no kammic consequences.

“What about children getting brainwashed by IS ideology or sektarian ways of thinking?”

Unfortunately, the Buddha did not set these kammic laws. Those are Nature’s laws.
– It is parents’ responsibility to make sure that children are not influenced by “bad influences” whether it is friends or via the internet. They will suffer their own kammic consequences.

“How can people be held responsible for such when there has not even yet developed a personal conscience, or right view? How can one say the blind are responsible? The blind cannot be held responsible.”

Nothing happens without causes. One is born blind, born with “less wisdom”, or even born into conditions where one does not even get an opportunity to learn Dhamma,these are all due to one’s previous kamma (actions).
– This is not any different from being born an animal or peta. Is it “fair” for one to be born an animal? It is not matter of fairness; it is just cause and effect.
– Again, these are Nature’s laws. A Buddha only discovers them.

“To think we are so free and wise is a big mistake…”

No one said that. Think about what is stated above.
– Whatever the condition that each of us are at, those have arisen due to our own past actions. We have no idea when we did them, could be many lives back.
– However, with the development of panna, we can overcome tanha and be free of all suffering, EVEN IF we have done many bad kamma.
– This is why the life story of Ven. Angulimala is so important. He had killed almost thousand people, but was able to avoid all that bad kamma.
“Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma”
– Of course, he must have done very strong good kamma too, to be able to comprehend the deep Dhamma so quickly.

All we can do is to make sure to not accumulate anymore bad kamma and to cultivate good kamma, and make our utmost effort to learn Dhamma to make those tasks easier. That effort will not go to waste.

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Jittananto

[Lal]

Siebe wrote: “This unconditioned element is, i belief, the stable element present in any living being”

For the last time, what it is?

If you cannot say what it is, I will have no more comments.

The only “unconditioned element” is Nibbana. One needs to follow the Noble Eightfold Path to get to Nibbana.

[Lal]

upekkha100 raises some interesting and complex issues.

I have revised an old post, that may help answer some of those questions raised. If more questions remain, we can discuss:

“What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?“

[Lal]

Siebe wrote: “I think: There must be a stable element to be found in a living being”

What would that “stable element” be? Do you mean “something that is fixed, permanent”? Be specific.

This is a serious issue, and gets to the heart of Buddha Dhamma.

[Lal]

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
“Now, recently I notice that I’ve been shifting through three of these states within about 15-20 minutes. This is very new to me and I’m not sure if the quick shifting through the jhanas are even relevant. I recognize the qualities of each shift very easily as, previously, I would spend hours and days in some of these states”.

One can go through jhana very quickly with practice.
It is said that Ven. Sariputta could go through all 8 jhana, attain Nirodha Samapatti, and “get back” within a brief moment.

Yes. One could also stay in a given jhana for hours.

Regarding: “I seem to end on the third where there is intense awareness of the space in-between objects of the world. I don’t ‘see’ objects directly but the space around them seems to have much more relevance – the paradox being that there is nothing there”

The jhanic experiences in the first four jhana are clearly described by the Buddha in the “Sāmañ­ña­phala Sutta (DN 2)“.

The relevant section from the English translation at that site is given below, which is fairly good (It seems to me that jhanic experiences may be the same for Ariya and anariya jhanas; these jhanas correspond to mental states of rupavacara brahma realms. Also note that while abandonment of the 10 types of miccha ditthi is needed for anariya jhanas, Ariya jhanas require a level of comprehension of Tilakkhana):

The First Jhāna
“Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states (my comment: these are greed, hate/anger, and 10 types of miccha ditthi), he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.

“Great king, suppose a skilled bath attendant or his apprentice were to pour soap-powder into a metal basin, sprinkle it with water, and knead it into a ball, so that the ball of soap-powder be pervaded by moisture, encompassed by moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out, yet would not trickle. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.

The Second Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the subsiding of applied and sustained thought (my comment: i.e., vitakka/vicara are lost, but savitakka/savicara remain), the bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is without applied and sustained thought, and is filled with the rapture and happiness born of concentration. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of concentration, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.

“Great king, suppose there were a deep lake whose waters welled up from below. It would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south, nor would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; yet a current of cool water, welling up from within the lake, would drench, steep, saturate and suffuse the whole lake, so that there would be no part of that entire lake which is not suffused with the cool water. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of concentration, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.

The Third Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the fading away of rapture (my comment: i.e., piti or joy is lost), the bhikkhu dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and experiences happiness with the body. Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: ‘He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness.’ He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness.

“Great king, suppose in a lotus pond there were blue, white, or red lotuses that have been born in the water, grow in the water, and never rise up above the water, but flourish immersed in the water. From their tips to their roots they would be drenched, steeped, saturated, and suffused with cool water, so that there would be no part of those lotuses not suffused with cool water. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates and suffuses his body with the happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.

The Fourth Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain (my comment: there was no pain in the third jhana, just the sukha that was in the third jhana also abandoned), and with the previous passing away of joy and grief, the bhikkhu enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna, which is neither pleasant nor painful and contains mindfulness fully purified by equanimity. He sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind (my comment: one’s physical body no longer is felt, and only a “white light” is discerned; that white light is the only “rupa” left to be cognized), so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind.

“Great king, suppose a man were to be sitting covered from the head down by a white cloth, so that there would be no part of his entire body not suffused by the white cloth. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.

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