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Siebe said: ” I always thought that life is somehow maintained by this continuum of citta’s from one life to the other.”
There are no citta for a being in the asanna realm during that whole lifetime. Life is always maintained by the kammic energy.
In sanna-vedayita-nirodha, there are no citta vithi or bhavanga.
See:
Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna SamāpattiSiebe said: “I only want to share the experience that craving, greed, urge can be very very strong and hard to resist.”
Of course. that is the key issue.
One cannot make progress without overcoming these cravings. This why the Buddha said: “Strive as hard as you can”. Results do not come automatically. One has to work at it.
However, it is also essential learn Dhamma so that one understands the MAIN REASON for getting rid of those cravings: The hidden dangers in them. When one sees the dangers, one will be motivated to overcome cravings. Again, it is a step-by-step process.
Upekkha100 said: “These bodily sensations only come during formal meditation right? “
It is possible that one could feel these bodily sensations outside formal meditation sessions. Formal sessions are helpful to get one’s mind to be focused. But if the javana power is strong enough one can feel the effects any time.
This is quite clear from the cases 1 through 3 you listed. It is the “inner feeling” or “how strongly one feels” that matters. This is why just reciting verses is not effective. One must understand the embedded idea and must feel it too.
The following is an extreme case, but conveys the idea: It is said that one could get into jhana in a split second, when one gets really good at it. And that can be done in any of the four postures: sitting, standing, walking, lying down.
– I don’t like to discuss these too much, because these could distract people from following the Path to attain magga phala, which is THE foremost goal. So, we should not focus on these “effects”.
– On the other hand, one MUST BE aware that “bodily sensations” COULD occur, and that those are natural.A more mundane example: We have heard reports of people doing rather difficult tasks under unusual conditions. I once heard a report where a small-made woman lifted the side of a car to rescue her child. Of course, she was unable to repeat it under normal conditions.
Christian said: “Goosebumps are not related to the spiritual process”.
I am not sure what you mean by “spiritual processes”. There is nothing mystic about what upekkha is experiencing, as I explained with that last example. What upekkha is experiencing is not that different from what that lady was able to experience.
– Even jhana are not mystic processes. It is just that most of us are not aware of the full capabilities of the mind.Furthermore, experiences are highly personal. What one person may experience may not be experienced by another person. That person may experience a different effect. Some people even experience “pressures”, “tingling sensations”, or even temporary discomforts; see, #15 of “Can Buddhist Meditation be Dangerous?“.
-Some people may not feel any “bodily feelings” and may get to magga phala. It is highly personal.Upekkha100 asked:” Do these goosebumps indicate the javana of a citta(higher potency)?”
I guess upekkha’s original post was made in the Abhidhamma Forum because of the connection to javana citta. However, this is an important topic that would be of interest to anyone doing formal meditation sessions. That is why I moved it to the Meditation Forum.
In the second post upekkha quotes this from an external link:
“From that link:
“In religious literature, the prickly feeling is also mentioned as an accompanying aspect of deep contemplation and meditation..”Yes. What upekkha is feeling could be early signs of getting into deeper samadhi. It has nothing to do with asmi mana and moha. In the contrary, upekkha is moving away from asmi mana and moha.
When one starts getting into deeper samadhi, one starts “feeling it” in the body. This may come in several different forms: goosebumps, needle pricks (not painful just heightened sensation), pressure points in the body or the head, etc. Some of these are discussed in, “Possible Effects in Meditation – Kundalini Awakening“.
When one switches from the regular metta bhavana to Ariya metta bhavana (with some comprehension of Tilakkhana), the javana power of cittas is indeed increased, as upekkha wondered. Then one’s thoughts become much more powerful, and they will affect one’s own body.
Even in anariya meditations, as long as one’s mind is temporarily released from kama sankalpana (that means not only sexual thoughts but also thoughts about any type of sense plesures), the javana power of citta are increased. It is not only kama sankalpana, but also thoughts about mundane things like worrying about job-related problems, worrying about kids, etc. This is why those ancient yogis were able to get into anariya jhanas by going into forests and staying away from sense attractions AND also interactions with other humans.
However, when we follow the Path of the Buddha, we don’t need to hide away from the society. The calming of the mind comes through understanding the true nature of this world.
I just wanted to add the following:
It is a good idea to do a “formal meditation” session too. This will help one’s mind to settle down, especially in the early days.
– This just means sitting down in a quiet place and either contemplate on a Dhamma concept or recite a kammatthana while contemplating on its meaning.
– One may be able feel “bodily sensations” when one gets deeper into samadhi.Formal sessions are also good to get into jhanas. While our objective is not jhanas, especially those with “jhanic experiences in recent past lives” may be able to get into jhana relatively easily.
– However, it is important not to get attached to such jhanic experiences.
– In particular, one should ignore any “colored lights” or objects (some people see religious symbols) that come to mind. These could be distractions and even dangerous.
– Some may get deeper into jhana and see “white light”. That is good, but one should just ignore that too.
– The bottom line is that any light or symbol belong to this world, and should not be the “thought object” in Ariya meditation.Dr.J Chakma said: “1) There can be approximately 600 citta vithi per second if all six senses are actively working, followed by 1800 manodvara citta vithi (3 mind door citta vithi follows every sense door citta vithi). Because human brain takes approximately 10 millisecond to process a sense input. ”
That is true in the case of pancadvara citta vithi. The “time lag” of approximately 10 milliseconds takes for the brain to process a signal coming though the five physical senses. However, the time lag could be smaller, since the brain may be able to process signals coming from the five physical senses in parallel. So, the time lag could be smaller by a factor of two. In any case, these are estimates based on current scientific findings. The actual numbers could change.
Regarding #2: While the brain is processing those external signals, the mind could be in a bhavanga state or in an active manodvara state. It is a complex situation.
The only thing we can say with certainty is that the mind — at a given time instant — will be in just one of the following states: processing a pancadvara citta vithi, processing a manodvara citta vithi, or in a bhavanga state.
Jhana (or phala) samapatti is a special case, where a single manodvara citta vithi can run uninterrupted for hours.
Tien said: “my question is why maccariya would be a bad thing in the below example:
Suppose one has a huge amount of wealth but just want to live a simple life, so one would like to not announce one’s huge wealth, not buying anything fancy, or just simply hide wealth from others, to avoid fame, harassment or theft.”
Maccariya arises out of greed. One does not want others to know that one has a lot of wealth, BECAUSE one is afraid that others will either try to rob him or come asking for money.
So, one with maccariya WILL KNOW that one has it. However, others may not know.
Most of these “other bad mental factors” arise out of lobha (ranging from extreme greed, to craving for sense pleasures, to craving for jhanic pleasures), dosa (hate/anger), or moha (ranging from not knowing the difference between moral/immoral, to avijja or not comprehending Tilakkhana).
Christian has been writing to me for a while, and is making great progress. He is also making an effort to help others by introducing them to Buddha Dhamma, which is a highly meritorious deed.
I like the following from Christian’s post above:
“So Buddha did not say “Do not be happy” but “Do not be happy on the basis of mental fabrication”
So by getting rid of mental fabrications and attachments our mind will generate much more blissful and happiness which is independent and unconditioned and this is Nibbana,”These “mental fabrications” are what I called “day dreaming” or “fantasizing” or vaci sankhara in my recent posts. One (or one’s vinnana) basically makes up or fabricates scenarios for enjoyment, which can be really harmful.
– Real and long-lasting happiness is attained by getting rid of such “mind-made” pleasures. The Buddha said that vinnana is like a magician, providing an illusion of happiness.“In contrast, during unplanned times when I’m simply lying back and my mind is calm and start thinking about concepts, things start clicking and connecting and makes sense. I’d describe these as epiphanies/”aha” moments. But the unusual thing is, when I’m thinking about these concepts, I’m not in silence. Meaning, I get these realizations when I am talking to myself out loud or when writing these thoughts down. In other words I seem to not get benefit from silent thinking(sankappa), but I do notice benefits when I engage in vaca and writing-I seem to understand better via these two methods.”
This is really true.
Bhavana is NOT just formal meditation. Some people think bhavana requires one to sit like a statue. Many of those people just focus their mind on the breath, which is really a waste of time.
One could be consciously thinking or talking (both involve vaci sankhara), and even engage in writing (involving kaya sankhara) while doing bhavana.
On the other hand, mano sankhara arise automatically (when a sense input comes in), and are not really involved in bhavana.
By the way, Samma Sankappa are conscious thoughts. They are really vaci sankhara (talking to oneself), which is what you seem to be doing. Based on Samma Sankappa, one speaks out (Samma Vaca) and does bodily actions (Samma Kammanata).
So, everything you are doing seem to be correct. Listening to Dhamma discourses (and reading) are also strong aspects of bhavana.
Basically, bhavana is any activity that helps makes progress on the Path.
There are some misconceptions about this in India and Sri Lanka. Most people there think Jambudīpa means India. But some people argue that Jambudīpa is really Sri Lanka. Both are wrong per Tipitaka.
In the Paṭhamakosala Sutta (AN 10.29): “Yāvatā, bhikkhave, candimasūriyā pariharanti disā bhanti virocamānā, tāva sahassadhā loko. Tasmiṃ sahassadhā loke sahassaṃ candānaṃ sahassaṃ sūriyānaṃ sahassaṃ sinerupabbatarājānaṃ sahassaṃ jambudīpānaṃ sahassaṃ aparagoyānānaṃ sahassaṃ uttarakurūnaṃ sahassaṃ pubbavidehānaṃ ..”
Translated (from the link below): ““Bhikkhus, as far as sun and moon revolve and light up the quarters with their brightness, so far the thousandfold world system extends. In that thousandfold world system there are a thousand moons, a thousand suns, a thousand Sinerus king of mountains, a thousand Jambudīpas, a thousand Aparagoyānas, a thousand Uttarakurus, a thousand Pubbavidehas, and a thousand four great oceans; a thousand four great kings, a thousand heavens ruled by the four great kings, a thousand Tāvatiṃsa heavens..”
A fairly good English translations is at: Kosala (1)
This is an interesting sutta that provides a lot of information on Buddha’s world view 2600 years ago. Here are some key points:
- There are four “dīpās” inhabited by humans centered on the Earth (in bold in the above paragraph). Jambudīpa is just one and it includes all the countries, not only India and Sri Lanka.
- The other three “dīpās”, we cannot see. They exist around the Earth, but are invisible to us, just like deva and brahma realms are also invisible.
- The sutta describes 1,000 “world systems”. Each one is centered around a star (our star is the Sun). Each of those “world systems” has 31 realms associated with it; each has those four “dīpās”.
- However, a Buddha is born only in our world system (within the 1,000 world systems), i.e., only in our Jambudīpa.
- There are an uncountable number of such clusters of 1,000 world systems in the universe (according to Buddha Dhamma). Such clusters are well-separated, and there could be Buddhas born in each of those.
- No one but a Buddha can even travel to another “1,000 world system”. Brahmas and Devas from our “1,000 world system” can visit Earth. For example, Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta says Brahmas and Devas from our “1,000 world systems” were present to hear that first desana by the Buddha.
- Furthermore, according to modern science, the separation between two adjacent “world systems” or “star systems” is several light years. That means to get to the nearest “world system” it will take say at least five years travelling at the speed of light. Since only a fraction of that speed can attained by a spacecraft, it is unlikely that humans will be able to travel even to the closest star system anytime soon. Maybe never.
- Finally, we must note that modern science was not aware of the existence of even our Moon, let alone any other “star systems with planets”, until Galileo (in the early 1600’s). This is clear evidence of the capabilities of a Buddha, and why we can have faith in his Dhamma (of course, practice provides more evidence too).
- Of course, the Buddha found out all these things about the universe without any telescopes. That shows the power of mind, when it is purified to the fullest.
This is a brief summary.
P.S. So, the meaning of the word, Jambudīpa, as pointed out by Vilas in his first post, is correct. A Buddha is born only in Jambudīpa.
Here is the original paragraph from the sutta link that Christian provided:
“Then, Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.”
This is a very deep sutta that needs a lot of explanation. As Christian pointed out, those verses are also in the Bahiya Sutta.
“diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati” needs a lot of explanation by itself. But it is translated as just one sentence in English: “In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen” (indicated in bold above).
If pressed into translating it to a single English sentence, I would say: “What is seen is only a picture (like that taken from a camera)”. But in practice, we “see” much more than that: We see ” an attractive person, a friend, an enemy, etc”. In other words, our gati are AUTOMATICALLY taken into account via our relationship with the object that we see.
– This is why two people may “see” the same object “differently”: one may “see” person X as “friend” and the other may “see” the same person X as “enemy”.This is what is explained in the recent post: “Amazingly Fast Time Evolution of a Thought (Citta)“.
One really needs to think deep in order to grasp the meaning of this sutta.
If one is interested in looking deeper, the following posts could be helpful too:
First read: “Difference Between Rupa and Rupakkhandha“, and then“Pancakkhandha or Five Aggregates – A Misinterpreted Concept“.
– One should especially watch the “Animation Video” section there.When one gets rid of one’s defilements (lobha, dosa, moha), one’s gati will also go away, and then what one “sees” would really be “what one has seen”, i.e., there is no attachment, no revulsion (anger), no ignorance (avijja) involved.
– Of course, one cannot get there quickly, like Ven. Bahiya in the Bahiya Sutta was able to. Buddha said Ven. Bahiya was the quickest person to grasp Dhamma concepts.
– Rather, especially these days, it is a step-by-step process: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“.Therefore, it is not easy to grasp the message embedded in that verse above. But if one can, then one would gain a deeper understanding.
“So vaci sankhara can be more specifically defined in terms of vitakka and vicara right? Then the key to stopping a certain thought is to stop the vicara, then vitakka, then apply vitakka to another thought.”
You got it exactly right!
P.S. For those who may not know: Vitakka is setting one’s attention on a given thought object. Vicara is maintaining one’s attention on that thought object, generating more vaci sankhara.
Vaci sankhara are actually defined as “vitakka, vicara“.
Hello Akvan,
“Waharaka Thero mentions that the 7 lives that a saththakathuparama has left doesn’t really refer to bava.”
Yes. That is correct.
I am not sure what issue is that we are trying to resolve. Can you ask the question again?What I have stated is that once one attains the Sotapanna stage, there will be no “eighth bhava”. He/she will attain the Arahant stage within 7 bhava.
But that COULD take more than seven jati or births within those seven bhava. There is no stated limit to number of jati within a given bhava.
Of course, a Sotapanna COULD attain Arahanthood within the same bhava too. Sometimes, one can go through all four stage of Nibbana and attain the Arahanthood while listening to a single desana.
Hopefully, the following will clarify the situation:
- King Bimbisara attained the Sotapanna stage BEFORE dying.
- The lifespans of the realms given, for example, at “31 Realms of Existence“, are the MAXIMUM possible.
- Apparently, “King Bimbisara” died several times in that deva realm and was reborn in the same realm, just a like a human can die and reborn many times in the human realm. The only difference is that there is no gandhabba state in deva realms.
– It is possible for a being in any of those realms to “die” before that time.
– If a deva with a Sakadagami stage attains the Anagami stage, then he would be reborn instantly in a brahma realm reserved for Anagamis.
– If a deva generates hateful thought towards another deva, he could be instantly reborn in a lower realm.
– Furthermore, a being in one of those realms could die at any moment due a kamma vipaka, just like humans die in early life.
