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“Here it is more of questioning the exact words. Since only the words “kaye kaya” is swapped with “vedanasu vedana” in the vedana section, if you say that “kaye kaya” means “a part of kaya” then would “vededanasu vedana” also mean “a part of vedana”?”
- Of course. “Vededanasu vedana” means “a part of vedana.” That is to indicate two types of vedana arising.
- Same applies to “cittesu cittanupassana.” In the initial “bahiddha stage,” there is undefiled citta (yet with “distorted sanna.“) For those with unbroken samyojana/anusaya, defiled cittas arise in the “ajjhatta stage” only a split second later automatically.
- The same applies to “dhammesu dhammanupassana.” In the initial “bahiddha stage,” there is undefiled dhamma (yet with “distorted sanna.“) For those with unbroken samyojana/anusaya, defiled dhammas arise automatically in the “ajjhatta stage” only a split second later.
- Here, “defiled” means with raga, dosa, or moha.
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“Does “vedanāsu vedanā” mean “a part of vedana”? If yes then which part?”
- There are two types of vedana: In the initial stage, “bahiddha vedana” (sukha, dukkha, adukkhamasukha) is experienced also by Arahants. In the next stage (next moment) mind-made “ajjhatta vedana” (somanassa, domanassa, upekkha) is experienced by those with samyojana/anusaya left, i.e., such vedana do not arise in Arahants.
- Have you read the posts I recommended? It is unlikely that you have.
Pathfinder raised the question about how the “Paṭikūlamanasikāra pabba” section of the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” tallies with the concepts of ajjhatta kaya and bahiddha kaya. The English translation in the above link does not have the complete text for that section. So, I will use the link provided by Pathfinder: “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).” I have linked to that section: Section D.
Let me try to explain briefly the connection.
English translation of the first two paragraphs is correct: “Again, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, that is covered with skin and full of impurities of all kinds from the soles of the feet upwards and from the hair of the head downwards, considering thus: ‘In this body, there are hairs of the head, hairs of the skin, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach with its contents, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid and urine.’
Just as if there were a double-mouthed provision bag, full of various kinds of grains and seeds, such as hill-paddy, paddy, mung-beans, cow-peas, sesame seeds and husked rice, and as if there were a man with discerning eyes, who, after having opened that bag would examine the contents, saying: “This is hill-paddy, this is paddy, these are mung-beans, these are cow-peas, these are sesame seeds and this is husked rice”; in this same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, that is covered with skin and full of impurities of all kinds from the soles of the feet upwards and from the hair of the head downwards, considering thus: “In this body, there are hairs of the head, hairs of the skin, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach with its contents, faeces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid and urine.”
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The next paragraph in Pali: “Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti. Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati. Evaṃ pi kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati.”
- This is a highly condensed verse that needs to be explained in detail. But I will point out the essential aspects.
1. Here, “kāye kāyānupassī viharati” refers to “a part of the pancupadanakkhandha (PUK).”
- Kaya = PUK.
- “kāye kāya” refers to other kāya within the PUK. It is the initial stage of PUK, which starts with an arammana. The bahiddha kaya arises first (with “distorted sanna“) and is immediately followed by the ajjhatta kaya (according to the samyojana/anusaya present in that mind.)
2. The next part, highlighted in blue above, refers to the root causes for the origination of our physical bodies (as explained in the first two paragraphs).
- First, our physical bodies cannot arise without the mental body (gandhabba) arising at the cuti-patisandhi moment (when human existence was grasped.)
- There, “samudaya dhamma” refers to examining the root causes of the arising (“samudaya”) of the mental body (gandhabba). To stop that from happening in the future (“vaya dhamma”) one needs to understand the roles of the bahiddha kaya and ajjhatta kaya.
3. The subsequent phrase “‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti” requires a detailed explanation.
- Once that process is understood, “Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.” OR (as the English translation correctly says): “In this way, he lives detached (from sensory attractions), without clinging to anything in the world, because now with cultivated wisdom (ñāṇamattāya) he realizes the root cause of craving is “distorted sanna.”
Of course, #3 requires a detailed explanation.
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This is why the Buddha stated, “My Dhamma has never been known to the world.”
- This is really a deeper aspect, but if understood, it will help immensely to eliminate “kama raga” or “craving sensual pleasures.”
- All our cravings are mind-made, based on “distorted sanna.“
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I am afraid that there is more involved in the correct explanation of the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)”.
It is indeed the statement you made in:
“Qns 1:
Several translations interpret ajjhattaṁ and bahiddhā as internal and external, it could well be wrong.”
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Ajjhattaṁ and bahiddhā in this context do not refer to internal and external. In particular, the Pali word for external is Bāhira.
- You need to read the posts I suggested above to understand the meanings of ajjhatta and bahiddha.
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I know that only a few people may have understood the correct meanings.
- This is the first time that I pointed out the connection to the interpretation of the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).
- I will try to write a post in two weeks to try to explain the connection a bit more. Next week’s post will focus on the connection between Buddha Dhamma and Vedic literature.
However, in the meantime, I will be happy to answer questions from those who may have at least partially understood the concepts of ajjhatta and bahiddha.
You wrote: “The second meaning of vibhava tanha, which is opposite to bhava tanha, is the tanha that seeks to eliminate the ‘conditioned bhava (kamma bhava and uppatti bhava)’ that can only be removed through the cessation of kammic energy.”
- Kammic energy can never be “removed” or “ceased.” P.S. Once energy is created, it will either bring about an effect (if the conditions are satisfied) or fade with time. For example, Angulimala killed almost a thousand people, but since he had attained Arahanthood, that kammic energy could not bring a “bhava” during his life or at death.
- Accumulated kammic energy cannot bring a rebirth (or even any temporary bhava during a lifetime) for an Arahant because the “upadana paccaya bhava” step (together with all the steps in PS) does not work.
So, I don’t see a “second meaning to vibhava tanha.”
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TripleGemStudent wrote: “I thought what’s said was simple, practical and another way to say how anapana sati / satipatthana can be practiced / carried out. I would also like to add “not just realizing something negative”, but also positive and neutral. Or sukha (sōmanassa), dukkha ( dōmanassa), adukhamasukha (upekkha) using the teachings on the “all” (sabba) to reflect / contemplate on the tilakkhana nature of what has arisen and know it’s cessation.”
- This is a critical point to think about deeply.
1. A Paticca Samuppada process starts with a sensory input (arammana.)
- An arammana leads to a sukha , dukkha , or adukhamasukha vedana first. This is the “bahidda vinnana” stage. Here, sukha and dukkha vedana arise ONLY due to the physical body. All other types (seeing, hearing, taste, etc.) only lead to adukhamasukha vedana. However, ALL kinds of arammana trigger “distorted sanna.”
- This “distorted sanna” gives a false perception” that sugar is sweet or a particular woman is attractive.
- That happens in the mind of anyone born a human. That set of “distorted sanna” is associated with any human body, and thus arises also in an Arahant.
2. In the next moment (within a split second), that “distorted sanna” triggers one’s samyojana/anusaya.
- That leads to the arising of “mind-made vedana” which are sōmanassa, dōmanassa, or upekkha (neutral) and the initial attachment occurs at the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage.
- Then, the mind keeps attaching to that arammana to varying degrees, depending on the situation.
- If the mind gets firmly attached, it gets to the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage, and that is when “new kamma” or “nava kamma” accumulation starts.
- See “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.” See the figure in #7.
- P.S. Since an Arahant has no samyojana/anusaya left, this step (and subsequent steps) DO NOT occur in an Arahant‘s mind.
3. I have been trying to explain this concept because it is critically needed to cultivate Satipatthana Bhavana correctly.
- In the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” the following verse appears repeatedly: “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” in the Kāyānupassana section.
- Similarly, “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati” appears in the Vedanānupassanā section (@11.11), “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā citte cittānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā citte cittānupassī viharati” appears in the Cittānupassanā section (@12.18), and “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati” appears in the Dhammānupassanā section.
4. Therefore, if anyone wants to understand the correct version of Satipaṭṭhāna, one needs to understand the concept of “distorted sanna,” bahidda vinnana, ajjhatta vinnana, etc.
- Of course, one needs to study this from the beginning in the “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)” including the background material there.
5. Feel free to ask questions from any of those old posts. Please provide the link to the post and the relevant bullet number.
- Note: My old posts in the “Maha Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta” section do not discuss these aspects. It is a “first-level” to be grasped.
Skywander wrote: “I agree, yet, for some of us, the concentration needed to successfully do vipassana is out of our skills.”
- Each person can do Vipassana at their level of understanding.
- The simplest way is to read a post from this website or listen to a verbal discourse while paying complete attention. The engagement and interest will grow if one starts grasping even a single concept.
- I know of many people who listen to discourses while doing household work. Others read posts on this website without paying much attention or not reading the suggested links. Those are bad habits.
- At the beginning of numerous suttas the Buddha started with the following verse: “taṁ suṇātha, sādhukaṁ manasikarotha, bhāsissāmī” which means, “Listen and pay full attention, I will speak.”
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Skywander wrote: “The problem I have when I try to do real vipassana is that by examining citta and dhammas my mind ends lost in itself.”
- This is the same issue as above.
- Vipassana can be done while sitting at a table reading a post on the computer. Just make sure to pay complete attention.
- Initially, it is best to pick a post (or section) where you have some understanding. Pick a time when distractions are minimal.
- If it helps, you could ” watch the breath” for a few minutes to calm the mind. People in Asian countries start a meditation session by offering flowers/lighting a candle to the Buddha and reciting a few verses. That helps calm the mind, too.
- As you make progress, you will be able to sit somewhere and contemplate a Dhamma concept. That is the Vipassana I do every day. Whenever needed, I get up to look up a sutta or do an online search. The goal is to increase one’s understanding, not to be forced to sit like a statue.
- Once getting some traction, this will become a habit. I wake up thinking about a Dhamma concept and go to sleep thinking about a Dhamma concept. Then I do that throughout the day too. Of course, not everyone can do the latter. I can do that since I am retired!
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Yes. Dosakkhayo’s above comment provides some critical insights. Let me expand on that a bit more.
- One’s physical and mental bodies arise according to the type of kamma responsible for bringing this existence (bhava) and birth (jati.)
- For example, a pig is born according to lowly, immoral actions done as a human. Such kamma (probably done with greed) produces an existence that likes “lowly tastes.” Thus, eating garbage/feces produces an “enticing sanna” in a pig. However, that “distorted sanna” cannot lead to strong immoral deeds (akusala kamma) in a pig (or any being in an apaya).
- Strong javana cittas that can bring good or bad outcomes can arise mostly in humans. This is a key nugget from Abhidhamma.
- Now, a human bhava (and jati with a physical body) arises due to a “good kamma vipaka” (via punna abhisankhara), but still “contaminated with kama raga or craving for sensual pleasures.” Therefore, the human body produces an “enticing sanna” only for sugar, cake, pizza, etc., but NOT for garbage/feces. Yet, if a human engages in immoral deeds to acquire such tasty foods by engaging in “lowly deeds” (like stealing or taking bribes, for example) on a regular basis, that can lead to acquiring enough akusala kamma to bring a “pig birth” via a “pig existence.”
A key point is that the “distorted sanna” is according to the birth.
- Beings in different realms are born with corresponding “distorted sanna” built-in.
- In another example, rupavacara Brahmas automatically generate “enticing sanna” with their “jhanic thoughts.” Their existence arose due to the cultivation of jhana as humans.
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I will say three things to consider:
1. Keeping the mind focused on the breath (or a water bowl, ball of clay, etc., as in mundane versions of kasina meditation) can stop it from wandering into sensual, angry, or ignorant thoughts. The latter three things cause a mind to be agitated and stressful.
- Therefore, I agree that forcefully keeping the mind on a “neutral object” will stop the mind’s agitation and have a calming effect (Samatha.)
- If one lives a moral, simple life (i.e., abstain from akusala kamma over a long time) while simultaneously engaging in such mundane techniques (breath, kasina), one can even attain “mundane jhanas.”
- That is what ancient yogis did. They went deep into jungles (to be away from women and other sensual attractions), lived simple lives, and cultivated anariya jhana using the breath or mundane kasina techniques. So, they will be reborn in a Brahma realm and live a peaceful life there. But at the end of that lifetime, they will return to kama loka and can be reborn in the apayas. So, it is a temporary solution.
2. The above procedure cannot cultivate the wisdom (panna) necessary to attain any magga phala.
- I would love for anyone to explain how that could be possible.
3. Focusing the mind on examining Dhamma concepts will address both of the above issues. This is called “insight meditation” or Vipassanā.
- It will keep the mind away from sensual, angry, or ignorant thoughts and help to calm it (Samatha).
- It will cultivate wisdom (panna) that will remove ingrained defilements (samyojana/anusaya) from the mind and lead to magga phala.
- With the cultivation of panna, one’s mind automatically abstains from akusala kamma. Thus, one may automatically enter Ariya jhana with this practice. Even in the absence of entering any jhana, one is certain to attain magga phala.
- However, the time taken will depend on each person. Do not expect quick results.
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The goal of a Buddhist is to attain magga phala and end the suffering in the rebirth process!
- Regarding #2, some say, “Do the breath meditation to calm the mind,” and then do Vipassanā.
- Of course, that will work if they understand how to do Vipassanā. But my observation (observing those who attend meditation retreats like Goenka-type) is that they never do real Vipassanā. Most of such programs lead to only Samatha. Does anyone know of someone who has attained a magga phala by attending such “meditation retreats”?
P.S. It is quite likely that anyone who translates “Ānāpānapabba” as “Section on Respiration” will not know how to do Vipassanā!
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“But I also believe that we cannot rule out observing the breath as a tool to gain insight.”
- OK. I have no more comments.
I see. Yes. That is a good point.
- However, we don’t understand how nature works in many situations.
- When Arahant Mahinda revived Buddha Dhamma in Sri Lanka, he wrote numerous “Sinhala Atthakatha” which are Commentaries (like Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga or even this website). However, all those disappeared during the “dark period” that probably started before Buddhaghosa came to Sri Lanka to write Visudhimagga. Even though the Tipitaka (or a significant portion of the Tipitaka) survived, those Sinhala Atthakatha completely disappeared. I have discussed some of it in “Incorrect Theravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline.”
- We do not know how the teachings will (i) go underground (like in the above case) for a while or (ii) disappear entirely at the end of Buddha Gotama’s Buddha Sasana. This website or similar “Commentaries” will have no trace left in one of those two cases.
- Many civilizations seem to have disappeared due to natural events such as floods, a comet strike, etc. Scientists believe such a comet impact destroyed most of life on Earth about 60 million years ago when the dinosaurs were also wiped out. The last such “cataclysmic event” seems to have happened about 12,000 years ago: “Younger Dryas impact hypothesis.” This event may not have been as bad as the one that wiped out the dinosaurs.
- There is much evidence that there was an advanced civilization worldwide before that which built pyramids (not only in Egypt but in many parts of the world) and many other sophisticated structures that have survived. I discussed some of it in “Back to Builders of the Ancient Mysteries (BAM) – Full Movie, Documentary.
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Under #1: From your reference “Pāli Tipiṭaka – English Publication – Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta” I am quoting the following:
- At the beginning, “Ānāpānapabba” is translated as “Section on Respiration.” In that section, it says: “I am breathing in a deep breath.” Breathing out a deep breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing out a deep breath.” Breathing in a shallow breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing in a shallow breath.” Breathing out a shallow breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing out a shallow breath.”
- I don’t think we can take that translation seriously. What do you think?
You asked: “If kayanupassana is about controlling our actions, then why are there the sections on patikulamanasikāra pabba, dhātumanasikāra pabba, and navasivatika pabba in the same kayanupassana section?”
- That is a good question.
- The word “kaya” (“collection of parts”) can mean the physical body as well as the panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) (commonly translated as “grasping five aggregates.”)
- However, in most suttas, by “kaya” the Buddha referred to PUK.
- As you pointed out, a small part of the Satipatthana Sutta is allocated to patikulamanasikāra pabba, dhātumanasikāra pabba, and navasivatika pabba (focused on the physical body.)
- As I have mentioned many times, a word can have several meanings, depending on the context. With practice, one can determine which meaning should be used in a given context.
You wrote (under #2): “In this sense, though the translation by “Pali Tipitaka” may have some errors, it is more consistent because the first 3: kaya, vedana, cittanupassana are all about observing only. I think the general idea is to see the body as it is, eg observe the breath, observe how it moves, observe what it is made of, observe how it decays, and then realise that the body is like this. Same goes for vedana and cittanupassana where you only observe and find out what it is.”
- Satipatthana is definitely not about just observing.
- It is about “being mindful” about how (i) the PUK arises, (ii) how vedana (and sanna) turn into “mind-made vedana” or “samphassa-ja-vedana“, (iii) how citta (thoughts) involving raga, dosa, moha arise, and (iv) making connections to above with Paticca Samuppada, anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc. (Of course, it also involves controlling one’s actions, speech, and thoughts based on that understanding.)
- Those are kayanupassana, vedananupassana, cittanupassana, and dhammanupassana.
Under #3: “It seems strange for this to appear in the kayanupassana segment. If it is about thoughts then it should at least be in cittanupassana!”
- That verse involves “kaya” as panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) per the above.
- Here, “So sato va assasati, sato va passasati” can be taken as “Let good thoughts grow, and discard evil thoughts” only in a simple explanation.
- When I wrote those posts, I had not explained how PUK is initiated by sensory inputs. I have started explaining this in recent posts: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
- I will start writing more posts on Satipatthana after completing that series of posts.
- Since vedana and citta are also included in PUK, kayanupassana actually includes how cittas arise with different types of vedana. As we know, PUK includes rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. This is a deeper aspect that I will write about later.
Under #4:
I have not discussed dhammanupassana specifically in that series of posts.
- However, my posts on Paticca Samuppada address most of those issues.
- What you quoted, ” And what, monks, is old age? If there is old age for all kinds of beings in whatever kind of existence, their getting frail and decrepit, the breaking [of their teeth], their becoming grey and wrinkled, the running down of their life span, the deterioration of their sense faculties – this, monks, is called old age” explains jati in Paticca Samuppada.
- I have discussed Paticca Samuppada in detail. See, for example, “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English” and “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
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I think the critical issue is in the following statement:
“1) Buddha’s intention was to deliver everything one needs to attain Nibbana to anyone. He would not teach the higher teaching to people who were not ready for them – it’d be a loss of time for both parties. Yet, Buddha declared that he shared with the Sangha all that he knew relevant to getting to the further shore. So, the Sangha got the full teachings, the texts, the keys to interpret the texts, and their meanings.”
The “the keys to interpret the texts” are in the Tipitaka. However, those “keys” are not apparent to anyone else but Ariyas.
- Once the last Sotapanna on Earth dies, that is the end of the current Buddha Sasana. All the books of the Tipitaka will still be there, but there will be no one who can use the “keys” to explain the key concepts.
- A good example is the current situation. Many deep concepts have been hidden for hundreds of years until Waharaka Thero (a “jati Sotapanna“) uncovered many such “keys.” He clarified many critical issues. Even now, most English texts have “Anapanasati” as “breath meditation” and “anicca” restricted to “impermanence.”
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Most of the other questions raised can be explained based on the above issue.
For example, the following comment “I do not understand how was not possible to preserve the patiniddesa. It is not like Buddha partake in developing an extense philosophy. .” does not make sense.
- What the Buddha taught was deeper than any philosophy. It is a “previously unknown worldview” that no mundane philosopher can come up with.
- Please read carefully today’s post, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala.” I tried to explain this point there.
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Another statement of skywander: “I do not understand how was not possible to preserve the patiniddesa.”
- It is the same point as above. There are suttas with the patiniddesa explanations. However, that is not apparent to anyone without getting to Samma Ditthi (i.e., at least reaching the Sotapanna stage.)
- P.S. For example, if one starts with the wrong idea that “Anapanasati” is “breath meditation” then no matter how many suttas they read, they will NEVER make any progress. That is obvious because essentially all translators of suttas into English are still doing that. They have not understood the fundamentals! Many of them have translated suttas with niddesa and patiniddesa and have not been able to unlock the “keys” mentioned above.
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I don’t know whether there are questions under:
## all-day meditation”
However, meditation is NOT restricted to “formal meditation,” where one sits in one place and contemplates Dhamma concepts. That is one way and is essential. There is no way that one can engage in akusala during that time. Furthermore, it will help cultivate wisdom (panna), break samyojana, and reach magga phala.
- However, one should also be engaged in meditation all day while doing routine day-to-day activities. That means being mindful of whether one is engaging in akusala kamma. That is one meaning of “Anapanasati.” It is to be noted that there are many levels of akusala kamma. Some, like “killing and stealing,” are easy to catch.
- Even engaging in “excessive sense pleasures” is a lower level of akusala kamma. That may not lead to rebirth in the apayas (when done at lower levels) but will certainly keep one bound to kama loka. These subtle points will become apparent as one cultivates the path.
P.S. I see that Tobi has made some good comments.
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I needed to rewrite an old post to clarify a few critical points. So, this post will be postponed until next week.
