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1. The English translation of that verse in “Saṁvara Sutta (AN 4.14)” could be better as follows:
First part: “Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī.”
- The idea of that verse is, “When a bhikkhu sees a “distorted sight” (rūpaṁ) with their cakkhu ayatana (cakkhunā), they don’t grasp the “distorted sanna” they experience (and, thus, would not pursue it).”
- As we have discussed, “rupa” is not the external rupa but the “mind-made rupa.” Cakkhu is not cakkhu indriya but cakkhayatana or cakkhu ayatana.
Second part: “Yatvādhikaraṇamenaṁ cakkhundriyaṁ asaṁvutaṁ viharantaṁ abhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssaveyyuṁ, tassa saṁvarāya paṭipajjati, rakkhati cakkhundriyaṁ, cakkhundriye saṁvaraṁ āpajjati.”
- The idea of that verse is, “If the faculty of sight (cakkhu indriya) were left unrestrained (i.e., if it became cakkhu ayatana), bad unskillful qualities of greed (abhijjhā) or displeasure (domanassa) would become overwhelming. For this reason, they practice restraint, protecting the faculty of sight (cakkhu indriya), and achieving its restraint.
2. In the above (and in the title), saṁvara means “sense restraint.”
- This is what I have been trying to explain for the past year.
- The “sweet taste of honey” is not truly in honey. However, both our cakkhu indriya and honey in the external world arise to provide that “distorted sanna.” Since even an Arahant was born with a human body, they would also get that “distorted sanna” of sweetness in honey. However, since they fully comprehend the process (Paticca Samuppada) of how that happens, their minds do not attach to that sweet taste. For that to happen, the kama raga samyojana needs to be eliminated from the mind, and that happens by fully comprehending the Paticca Samuppada process, i.e., by cultivating wisdom (panna.)
- Different species have different “distorted sanna” types associated with external rupa. If forced to eat honey, a lion will NOT get a desirable taste. For a cow, it is the grass that tastes good. Those observations indicate that the “taste” is not in honey or grass.
- Read the post “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā)” first posted on 12/12/23. Anyone interested should read posts published just before and after it in “New / Revised Posts.”
- This is a deep subject that may not be suitable for everyone. I cannot say who should spend the time on it. However, I will write more posts (and revise old ones) to highlight this concept and try to shine “more light” on the subject. This is the “heart of Buddha’s teachings.” It took me years to figure it out. Once this is understood, there will be no need to suppress “kama raga” with willpower!
3. In other words, “saṁvara” or “sense restraint” will happen automatically once the kama raga samyojana is eliminated. However, one MUST use willpower to abstain from sensory pleasures to get there GRADUALLY.
- Thus, it takes a combination of “self-restraint” AND “learning Dhamma (PS/Tilakkhana) to eliminate the kama raga samyojana.
- At the beginning (@marker 1.3), the sutta points out four efforts required to attain that goal: “Saṁvarappadhānaṁ, pahānappadhānaṁ, bhāvanāppadhānaṁ, anurakkhaṇāppadhānaṁ.” OR “Saṁvara padhāna, pahāna padhāna, bhāvanā padhāna, anurakkhaṇa padhāna.”
- In the above, “padhāna” is the effort; saṁvara is to stop sensual thoughts once they arise; pahāna is to understand the root causes for such thoughts to arise (this is where one needs to understand the concept of “distorted sanna” or “sanna vipallasa“); bhāvanā is to contemplate on it once starting to understand; anurakkhaṇa is to “stick to the whole process” until kama raga samyojana is eliminated.
- One cannot get to the Anagami stage without following that process.
- If one can understand the basic ideas, one can reach the Sotapanna stage because one can become “sanditthika” without doubt. (See “Sanditthika and Samyojana.”) That involves mainly the first three, namely, saṁvara padhāna, pahāna padhāna, and bhāvanā padhāna. Typically, only bhikkhus (who do not have household responsibilities) can fully implement the four steps.
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Lagrade asked: “How does one know that the true atman/buddha nature does not exist?”
- The concept of “atman” in the Vedas refers to a “soul-type” unchanging, permanent entity in Christianity/Islam. It seems the “Buddha nature” that you quote from Mahayana implies the same.
- The Buddha verified the absence of such an entity by experience. He was able to figure out that all existences are temporary. Not only that, he visited all those realms, too.
Of course, each of us needs to study those doctrines and choose the one that makes sense.
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If you replace the word “heartwood” with “wood suitable to make long-lasting furniture,” you can get the idea. In that analogy, a person trying to find such wood thinks banana trees are suitable because they are straight; it seems they are good for making furniture. But, of course, one cannot make furniture with a banana tree because it does not have a “strong core.”
- We attach to rupa (mind-made versions of external rupa like sights, sounds, tastes, etc.) only because we believe they have value.
- However, once one understands PS/Tilakkhana, one can see that those mind-made versions of external rupa have no substance or value.
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Yes. I need to revise the first post.
- The explanation in the second post, “Attato Samanupassati” – To View Something to be of Value” is correct.
Some posts written before 2023 may need revision. I am going through those old posts and will revise them when I have the time.
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The translation of that verse there is: “If the cause and reason that gives rise to eye consciousness were to totally and utterly cease without anything left over, would eye consciousness still be found?”
- Yes. It is right.
- If cakkhu (“cakkhayatana”) ceases and becomes “cakkhu indriya” and rupa (“rupayatana”) ceases and becomes a true representation of the external rupa (as is the case for an Arahant), then cakkhu viññāṇa (“a defiled seeing”) will cease and one will only have “pure eye-consciousness” left (without any illusions or sanna vipallasa).
- This is what I have been trying to explain for more than a year about “distorted sanna.”
- The tricky point is that even an Arahant will see a beautiful woman as beautiful. That is because all human bodies (both physical and mental) arise (via Paticca Samuppada) to present that “distorted sanna.” But since Arahants have fully comprehended that “distorted nature,” their minds will not be attached to it. The same thing holds for other sensory faculties. In another example, honey will taste sweet for Arahants, but their minds will not attach to it even at the first moment (in the purana kamma stage). See “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
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Yes. I will revise that post.
P.S. I revised #1 of the post “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna.” As mentioned there, the difference between indriya and ayatana is explained in “How Do Sense Faculties Become Internal Āyatana?“
- The rest of the post “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna” may need revisions too. I will look at it later.
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Thank you, hojan!
P.S. I have listened only to that one discourse from this Venerable. If there are questions or issues, we can discuss them.
In almost all suttas, the following holds.
1. “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇan” describes “seeing by a non-Arahant,” i.e., “seeing with a defiled mind.” Here, cakkhu refers to “cakkhayatana” (NOT cakkhu indriya), rupa refers to “rupayatana” (NOT the external rupa, but the “mind-made rupa” created by the defiled mind), and cakkhu viññāṇa means “a defiled seeing” (i.e., with an expectation.)
- Of course, an Arahant can also see, but that verse is NOT used to describe seeing by an Arahant.
2. The above holds for all six sensory events, including “Sotañca paṭicca sadde ca uppajjati sotaviññāṇan” through “Manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇan.“
3. Also, “anatta” means “without benefit.”
- In the verses you quoted, Ven. Ananda explains that since both cakkhu and rupa are of anatta nature (not beneficial), cakkhu vinnana (which arises due to those two) is also of anatta nature.
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1. A is correct. A Sotapanna has seen how suffering arises due to “san, ” i.e., they are “sanditthika.”
2. All ten “samyojana” (“san” + “yoga” or “bonds for the rebirth process”) arise due to “san” (raga, dosa, moha.)
- Raga and dosa do not arise together, but each arises with moha.
- Thus, all ten samyojana have moha.
3. A Sotapanna has removed three ditthi samyojana. Those are primarily rooted in moha.
- Kama raga samyojana has raga and moha primarily. Patigha samyojana has dosa and moha primarily. These two are removed at the Anagami stage.
- Rupa raga and arupa raga samyojanas have raga and moha primarily. Mana, uddhacca, and avijja samyojanas have moha primarily. These five are removed at the Arahant stage.
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I listened to more than half of the discourse.
- It is good. It explains the basic concepts of habits, Paticca Samuppada, etc.
Hello Amin,
It would be better if you could provide the link to a YouTube video with that discourse. I am hesitant to download big audio files, and others may be hesitant to do so.
- I can replace the link with the Google Docs if you provide it.
OK. Then that should be enough.
1. Even during the Buddha’s time, no one knew about the details of the gandhabba. The Buddha or other bhikkhus did not teach Abhidhamma (including pure octads and that a gandhabba is made of pure octads.)
- That is why those concepts are not in the Sutta Pitaka.
2. The Buddha explained the framework of Abhidhamma to Ven. Sariputta. He and his lineage of bhikkhus started on the monumental task of providing the details of Abhidhamma. It begins with the structure of a citta (with cetasika or mental factors), a fundamental building block of a pure octad (suddhāṭṭhaka), and explains the details in a systematic analysis.
- That is equivalent to the efforts of modern scientists to explain all material phenomena starting with a set of elementary particles.
- Of course, they have been unable to accomplish that and will not be.
- That is because material phenomena arise based on mental phenomena.
3. It took many generations of bhikkhus to finalize the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
- Arahants attended four “recitals” or Councils (Dhamma Sangayana) conducted at the following times after the passing away of the Buddha: After three months, one hundred years, two hundred years, and five hundred years.
- At each Council, all three Pitaka (Sutta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma) available at that time were recited to ensure their self-consistency. Of course, the first two Pitakas were complete even in the first Council, but Abhidhamma Pitaka was finalized only at the third Council. Then, that complete Tipitaka was written down in the fourth council.
- See “Abhidhamma – Introduction.”
4. Many Commentaries were written at various times to explain the details of the Sutta and Abhidhamma Pitaka.
- Of the reliable Commentaries, only the three Commentaries composed during the time of Buddha have survived.
- See “Historical Background.”
- Also, see a recent discussion on the forum: “Definition of Energy in Buddha Dhamma.”
5. It seems that one book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka may have been lost. That book should provide details of pure octads and the details of the mental body.
- However, a Commentary that summarized that “missing book” (together with details of the other sections of Abhidhamma) survived.
- Most people learn Abhidhamma using a few books available in Sinhala and English. See the references listed in “Abhidhamma – Introduction.”
6. At some point, I will probably have to write a book explaining all this.
- People did not need to learn Abhidhamma at the time of the Buddha. They were able to grasp the concepts without getting into Abhdiahmma, which is probably why the Buddha did not teach Abhidhamma to a wider audience at that time. In addition, it would not have been possible to compile the material in Abhidhamma within the Buddha’s lifetime.
- But Abhidhamma would suit those who like to “dig deeper.”
7. Allocating time to explain different aspects is a huge task. I will try to tackle various aspects at a given time as I see fit.
- Others (who learned Dhamma from Waharaka Thero; see “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro“) also do that, but many do not go into Abhidhamma.
- I have not seen anyone else discuss these details. Of course, Waharaka Thero discussed them, and I am building on that with my scientific background.
8. Each person needs to choose the way forward. If Abhidhamma seems too complex, it is not necessary to learn those details. As I pointed out above, most people were not even aware of Abhdidhamma during Buddha’s time.
- On the other hand, Abhidhamma could help many these days. See “Sutta Learning Sequence for the Present Day”
- I quote the following from that post. Many people at Buddha’s time belonged to the ugghaṭitañña and vipañcitañña categories. They could understand concepts with only a little explanation.
“4. As pointed out by Buddha, There are three types of people who can comprehend Tilakkhana, categorized according to their “inherent capabilities.” That has nothing to do with “book knowledge,” but has everything to do with one’s inherent capabilities accumulated over many, many lives.
- The first category is ugghaṭitañña or “persons with high wisdom”; they could grasp concepts very quickly. Then some belong to the vipañcitañña category, and they needed a bit more explanation to understand the concepts. The third category is neyya; they need detailed explanations (i.e., patiniddesa) to grasp a concept. People in the last group of “padaparama” are unable to comprehend Dhamma.”
9. P.S. I just revised the post “Abhidhamma – Introduction” to provide the name of the Commentary based on which the References in that post were compiled.
- Commentary on the Abhidhamma Piṭaka by Ācāriya Anuruddha (Abhidhammattha Sangaha).
- Also, see Bhikkhu Bodhi’s note, “A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: The Abhidhammattha Sangaha of Acariya Anuruddha.”
It is a bit long explanation why the concept of pure octads (suddhāṭṭhaka) seems absent in Tipitaka. It is definitely absent in the Sutta Pitaka. I will write about it at some point, but there are more pressing issues to be discussed right now.
- It is easier to proceed the other way, as I suggested above.
- Did you read the posts I recommended in my last comment above? Do you think there is insufficient evidence supporting the mental body (gandhabba) concept?
I think it is a good idea to start with #4 above.
- To quote the relevant point: “When the gandhabba comes out of a physical body (as in NDE or OBE), a gandhabba can see, hear, etc., on its own. See “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind” and “Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE).”
First, look at the evidence in the above two posts that seeing, hearing, etc., can happen while the physical body is “effectively dead” and the brain activity is absent.
- That leads to the conclusion that the Buddha was right. There is a mental body (gandhabba) associated with the physical body. Furthermore, the mental body is primary, and the physical body (born when a gandhabba enters a womb) is secondary. The death of the physical body is not necessarily the end of human existence; in most cases, gandhabba comes out of the dead body and gets into another womb to make another physical body.
- In other words, the physical human body has a maximum lifetime of about 100 years, while the mental body may live for thousands of years.
Once one is convinced of the LOGICAL necessity for a mental body, one would be motivated to take the account of the pure octads (suddhāṭṭhaka) more seriously.
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