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Sybe07 has tried to post the following comment and was unable to. I am sorry about this persisting issue. Hopefully, the forum software team will be able to fix this issue soon. It seems to be an intermittent problem, since Sybe07 was able to post his original question above.
Sybe07’s comment:
Thanks Lal,
In SN35.245 en SN47.12 sati is compared to a gatekeeper who is wise and competent. I think this also says a lot.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.245/en/bodhiYes. Sati is another misinterpreted Pali word.
Sati means keeping the mind on a particular arammana. That can be good or bad.
– Miccha sati is keeping the mind on a defiled arammana, say, stealing something, sexual misconduct, etc.
– Samma sati is keeping the mind on moral thought objects. That can have a wide range from, say, thinking about giving to focusing on a deep Dhamma concept.Samadhi is a related word that also has been misinterpreted.
– Miccha sati leads to miccha samadhi. Thus, one ‘s mind will focus on a misdeed or a wrong view.
– Samma sati leads to samma samadhi. Here, one’s mind will be focused on a moral deed or a concept.Sybe wrote: “Thinking about this the thought of conscience came to mind.
A conscientious person is also concerned with keeping the mind clean, undefiled with immoral thoughts, speech and actions. He/she has a strong sense of moral shame and dread (two treasures).”That is right. What you describe is samma sati.
I have revised the English translation that you provided. Hopefully, that will convey the meanings of the “seven treasures” better.
Upekkha asked: “By “Whoever, man or woman”, is this also referring to anariyas?”
Yes. Of course. It applies to ANYONE who is cultivating/accumulating these treasures.
– As one keeps building up on these treasures, one could become an Ariya.
– That process ends only at the Arahant stage.The following is my version of the whole sutta.
– Feel free to ask questions.“Bhikkhus, there are these seven treasures. Which seven? The treasure of Saddhā (faith), the treasure of sīla (moral conduct), the treasure of hiri (shame of wrongdoings), the treasure of ottappa (fear of wrongdoings), the treasure of suta (listening), the treasure of cāga (giving/generosity), and the treasure of paññā (wisdom).
“And what is the treasure of faith? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has faith in Buddha’s Awakening: ‘Indeed, the Buddha is worthy and rightly self-awakened, perfect in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, knower of this world, unexcelled as a teacher for humans and heavenly beings (Devas and Brahmas), fully-awakened, blessed.’ This is called the treasure of faith.
“And what is the treasure of moral conduct? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from sexual misconduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants (alcohol and drugs). This, bhikkhus, is called the treasure of moral conduct.
“And what is the treasure of shame of wrongdoings? There is the case where a disciple feels the shame of bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of shame of wrongdoings.
“And what is the treasure of fear of wrongdoings? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones feels fear of wrongdoings such as bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of fear of wrongdoings.
“And what is the treasure of listening? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has heard Buddha Dhamma (correct teachings), has retained what he/she has heard, has stored in memory what he/she has heard. Those teachings are perfect in the beginning, perfect in the middle, perfect in the end, that—in their meaning and expression—proclaim a virtuous life that is entirely complete and pure. This is called the treasure of listening.
“And what is the treasure of giving/generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in generosity, responsive to requests, delighting in giving. This is called the treasure of giving/generosity.
“And what is the treasure of wisdom? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has cultivated wisdom by learning true Dhamma and is following the path to end suffering. This is called the treasure of wisdom.”
These bhikkhus are the seven treasures.
The treasure of faith,
the treasure of moral conduct,
the treasures of shame and fear of wrongdoings,
the treasures of listening, generosity,
& wisdom as the seventh treasure.
Whoever, man or woman, has these treasures
is said not to be poor, has not lived in vain.Hi Johnny,
‘Sankhara paccaya vinnana’ is not the same as ‘upadana paccaya bhava.’
What happens is that in the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, one gets “trapped” in that particular arammana, in your example, an attractive woman.
– Then one would start generating lustful thoughts (vaci sankhara) about the woman and may turn and take another look (involving kaya sankhara.)
– Those sankhara are generated due to avijja via “avijja paccaya sankhara.” Then it creates or feeds the “lustful vinnana” via “sankhara paccaya vinnana.” That then goes through the rest of the PS steps including revisiting the “tanha paccaya upadana” step. The next step there is “upadana paccaya bhava” and thus he is in a “temporary lustful bhava.” Then he may be “born” in that lustful state and may take further actions, such as going and talking to her.
– Paticca Samuppada steps are not necessarily linear as I discussed in the past few posts.Cubibobi and Sybe07: “He also made it clear in one of his books:
Mindfulness, Bliss, And Beyond
On page 127, he made this point very clearly. The first paragraph on that page read:
“In the original Buddhist scriptures there is only one word for
�meditation� and that is jhana. According to the fully enlightened
Ven. Ananda in the Gopaka-Moggallana Sutta (MN 108,27) the only
kind of meditation that the Buddha recommended was jhana..”I have highlighted what is wrong with the statement.
The Buddha approved Ariya jhana and rejected anariya jhana.
– Ariya jhana can be attained ONLY (but not all) those who have attained magga phala.
– Those who “enjoy” anariya jhana may have the wrong perception that those states are something to do with magga phala. As I have pointed out, jhanic states are the mental states in brahma realms. Those brahmas (unless they have magga phala) can be reborn in the apayas.I took a look at the Gopakamoggallāna Sutta (MN 108).
– It says, “Na ca kho, brāhmaṇa, so bhagavā sabbaṃ jhānaṃ vaṇṇesi, napi so bhagavā sabbaṃ jhānaṃ na vaṇṇesīti.”
– That means, “The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of jhana, nor did he condemn every type of jhana”.Then it is explained what kind of jhana the Buddha approved and praised.
– As I keep saying, we need to be very careful with this kind of translations.Johnny: “Aren’t the subsequent looking events no longer purely a vipāka viññāṇa?”
Yes. Those subsequent “looking events” are done with INTENTION (thus involve vaci sankhara to think about the mind-pleasing figure and to turn the head with kaya sankhara), and are DONE WITH kamma vinnana. In other words, they involve “sankhara paccaya vinnana.”
Even though those subsequent “lookings” involve cakkhu vinnana, they are INITIATED by mano vinnana.
That is a good question. We need to be thinking along those lines.
I agree with Lang (and I have stated this many times with Tipitaka references) that jhana are not necessary to attain magga phala.
The two discourses of Ajahn Brahm that I listened to did not mention jhana. So, I was unaware of his position on that.
– I also did not agree fully with a few of the things mentioned in the two discourses that I listened to.
– However, he was better than many others. Some, in particular, do not associate Nibbana with ending the rebirth process. Ajahn Brahm emphasized this important point. He detailed the kind of suffering that one goes through in the rebirth process, and why one must end the rebirth process to end samsaric suffering.We can get something out of discourses by some.
– However, it is completely useless to listen to some others.
– I try to listen to different bhikkhus (and laypeople) when I have time, just to get an idea of what is out there. Most of them, I don’t need to listen to more than once to realize that it is a waste of time.
– However, I think one may be able to get some insights by listening to discourses by a selected number of bhikkus/laypeople.
– It would be nice to get the opinions of others who have listened to Ajahn Brahm. We have discussed the teachings of Goenka in detail in the link that Lang provided above.Cubibobi (Lang) has not been able to post a comment. He emailed me the following comment. Thus there are still some issues with posting.
Hi all,
I just saw this forum which mentions two teachers I used to follow closely, so I’d like to share a few experiences.
With S. N. Goenka (known to us as Goenkaji), I took a few 10-day meditation courses and one 7-day course that taught the Satipatthana Sutta. In the forum about Goenka’s vipassana, I did my best to describe a 10-day course:
I’m not now practicing that way, but hearing a phrase like “burning/eradicating old sankharas� brings back memory, some of which unpleasant.
I suppose many who went through the courses can recall times of sitting through difficulties in the mind (from past sankharas coming up, manifesting as sensations on the body), mustering mental strength to get through emotional “storms”, because this was how purification took place, like letting pus out of a wound. I suppose this is what Invo meant by �dark night of the soul�.
I recall wondering at times: “How do we eradicate past sankharas since they are infinite, given that samsara has no beginning?”
With Ajahn Brahm, I had a great time listening to his numerous talks on YouTube: a gentle, laid-back, humorous teacher. His talks were gems, but a few of them gave me some discouragement, where he emphasized that jhana was prerequisite to liberation.
He also made it clear in one of his books:
Mindfulness, Bliss, And Beyond
On page 127, he made this point very clearly. The first paragraph on that page read:
“In the original Buddhist scriptures there is only one word for
�meditation� and that is jhana. According to the fully enlightened
Ven. Ananda in the Gopaka-Moggallana Sutta (MN 108,27) the only
kind of meditation that the Buddha recommended was jhana.Thus jhana
designates Buddhist meditation proper, where the meditator�s mind is
stilled of all thought, secluded from all five-sense activity, and is radiant
with otherworldly bliss. Put bluntly, if it isn�t jhana then it isn�t true
Buddhist meditation! Perhaps this is why the culminating factor of the
Buddha�s noble eightfold path, the one that defines right meditation, is
nothing less than the four jhanas.”I must admit I felt a bit discouraged since I had a “nagging feeling” that I would not get into jhana in this lifetime.
I continued searching and learning and “stumbled” into puredhamma.net (or perhaps when a student is desperate the teacher appears?)
It was eye-opening, and I felt great joy in learning true meanings of Pali words, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, and the keyword “san”. Here, there is no getting “through mental storms” to get to the “beyond”; reading, and oftentimes rereading, a post, and contemplating it afterwards bring only joy, and more importantly, a kind of faith that sotapanna magga phala is possible.
I hope those with similar past experiences as mine find something beneficial here.
Best
P.S. Writing to here, I recall another book in the style of Goenka’s vipassana:
The Quiet Mind
https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Quiet-Mind.pdfAs you know, Goenkaji supposely taught vipassana in the style of Sayagi U Ba Khin. Sayagi U Ba Khin had other students besides SN Goenka, one of whom was John Coleman, the author of this book, which describes his spiritual search.
In chapter 17 of the book, he described his enlightenment experience. On page 171-172 he described the “wild dance of electrons” throughout his hand, how he experienced the “atomic theories” in his own body. Also on page 172, he alluded to the burning of old kammas through this intense experience.
In Goenka’s method, there’s mentioning of the stage of bhanga, where one experiences the dissolution throughout the physical body through rapidly changing sensations, and I figured that John Coleman was describing this stage, or even beyond.
Again, similar to reading Ajahn Brahm, I felt somewhat discouraged while reading this, due to the “nagging feeling” that I would not experience this stage.
Invo had stated: “As to Ajahn Brahm, he doesn’t teach “eradication of kamma beeja”. Ajahn Brahm teaches more like you, goodness (metta & sila),..”
When I came across a set of discourses by Ajahn Brahm recently, I spent some time and listened to a few. The set of discourses are here:
“Word of the Buddha (Full Series – parts 1 to 12) | 2016 to 2019”Yes. I recommend listening to this set. These are long discourses. One could take time and listen over a period of time.
Hello PBR!
You concluded:
“..my limited understanding so far is:
Living a moral life is the foundation layer.
The focus of Anapanasati should be about purifying mind rather than calming the mind through breathing meditation.
To sustain niramisa sukha and avoid going back to sensual desires, one needs to comprehend Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta nature of life (which in turn helps live sustained moral life). This I understood from listening to the discourse but I don’t think I comprehend what it involves yet.”That is exactly right.
– Yes. It may take some time to understand the Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta nature of life.I am also glad to hear that your symptoms have improved. You will be able to not only get rid of them but also to experience some “lightness in the mind and the body” as well.
– Also, living a simple life is beneficial too. Attachment to material things gives an illusion of happiness but carries with it a lot of stress. While there is no point in subjecting oneself to hardships, trying to live a luxurious life (doing things in excess) can cause stress too.
– That is the “middle path” advocated by the Buddha.Hello cubibobi:
No. Patients with Alzheimer’s / dementia lose memories because their brains have defects. Their brain scans likely reveal that parts of their brains have been damaged or not functioning properly.
– If you have information on this (brain scans of such patients), please share.Both “saññā nirodha” and “saññāvedayita nirodha” take place in people with properly functioning brains.
One gets to “saññā nirodha” by doing a version of anariya meditation where one discards ALL thoughts that come to the mind.
On the other hand, only an Arahant can get to “saññāvedayita nirodha” which is the experience of FULL Nibbana in this life.
– The correct Anapanasati meditation of DISCARDING immoral thoughts and CULTIVATING moral thoughts (and eventually kusala thoughts) lead to the Arahanthood.
– Moral thoughts BECOME kusala thoughts when one comprehends the futility of existence in any of the 31 realms and, in general, the dangers of the rebirth process.
– Understanding that last part, happens at the Sotapanna stage. Implementation of that will be complete only at the Arahanthood.Hello PBR,
The main issue that you (and many other people) have is to incorrectly assume that Anapanasati meditation is breath meditation.
It just happens that Lodonyo had the same issue and he figured out the difference. Please read the topic, “Icchā, Ānāpānasati, Satipatthāna.”
Feel free to ask questions after you read the relevant posts mentioned there and also in the above in my previous reply.
Lodonyo: I am glad that you took the time to do all that research and found the answers by yourself!
Regarding your questions:
“1. Is Lord Buddha, in what seems to be an example of how to rid ourselves of “iccha” saying that in the real anapanasati we are clearing immoral CITTA? and literally taking in/causing to arise MORAL CITTA?”
Exactly right!
2. Yes. The Bodhisatta (before becoming the Buddha) did the WRONG Anapanasati (breath meditation) that learned from two yogis, Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta.
– He attained the Buddhahood by discovering the CORRECT Anapanasati.3. “At this point i’m unsure if I should motivate all my being to sitting in silence and quieting negative thoughts, witnessing neutral thoughts, and cultivating positive thoughts or if it’s more about living morally in life? Both? I will continue reading and meditating on what the proper anapana/satipathana is.”
– Yes. That is exactly what needs to be done.
I suggested some posts to PBR under the topic, “mindfulness practice and eye tiredness/pain“.
You may want to read them too. You may have read some of them already.Yes. What was suggested by y not above could be the cause of your issues, reddypeppers.
All our stresses have origins in greed, anger, and ignorance (of the teachings of the Buddha).
– If we try to disregard those “root causes” and ask the mind to focus on something specific (like the breath), that just could be an added burden to the mind.We may not realize it (especially initially), but greed and anger lead to a lot of stress.
– Furthermore, “meditation” should mostly involve contemplation of Dhamma concepts.If you can elaborate on whether you have anger issues or excess sensual attachments, that may help clarify possible specific solutions. But most people do not like to talk about personal issues, so that may not be a possibility.
I would recommend the post, “Myths about Meditation” and then first few posts on “Bhāvanā (Meditation)”
After that, you could select other posts in the “Bhāvanā (Meditation)” section.
Feel free to ask questions.
P.S. Yesterday, I installed a “patch” suggested by the forum software people and it seems to work. Now the main forum page is being updated as comments are posted.
“I was wondering, this bhava asava can this also be seen as a drive to manifest an ego, to manifest oneself? A constant drive to be somebody. To be important.
Yes. One could put it that way.
Put it simply: One would have “bhava asava” as long as one has not realized the dangers in the rebirth process. That cannot be understood as long as one does not realize that one can be born in the lower four realms.
