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It means, “a rupa that cannot be seen, cannot be touched, and belongs to the dhammāyatana (i.e., a dhammā) OR Nibbāna dhātu”
– They can make contact with the mind.You are correct, Tobias.
There is one component in rupakkhandha which is sanidassana. That is “paccuppanna rupa” or “rupa that we are seeing at the present moment” which are only “vanna rupa” as well.
The past and future parts of rupakkhandha are anidassana.
Tobias wrote:
“Appatigha are the khandhas, except rupakkhandha.”That is not quite right.
The verses you quoted are not for khandhas. They are for “āyatana” or “indriya“. Those are cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha,kaya types of pasada rupa.
Khandhas are mental impressions.
See, “Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha”The following post is from Tobias G:
In “Tikanikkhepa” contains types of dhammā:
2.3.1.22. Sanidassanattika
Katame dhammā sanidassanasappaṭighā? Rūpāyatanaṁ— ime dhammā sanidassanasappaṭighā.
Katame dhammā anidassanasappaṭighā? Cakkhāyatanaṁ, sotāyatanaṁ, ghānāyatanaṁ, jivhāyatanaṁ, kāyāyatanaṁ, saddāyatanaṁ, gandhāyatanaṁ, rasāyatanaṁ, phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ— ime dhammā anidassanasappaṭighā.
Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho; yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaṁ appaṭighaṁ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṁ; asaṅkhatā ca dhātu— ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.
——————
Sappatigha are all internal pasada rupa (chakku, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya), and all external rupa (ruparupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthaba).
Appatigha are the khandhas, except rupakkhandha.
Hello Dipobhasadhamma,
There are two main usages in Buddha Dhamma. In both, “paramattha” (“parama” + “attha”) means “ultimate truth” and “sammuti” means “conventional or adopted by humans”.
1. The sammuti version of our world is to say it has humans, animals, Devas, houses, mountains, planets, stars, etc.
– But in Abhidhamma all that can be reduced to 28 types of rupa, 81 types of citta, and 52 types of cetasika. That is the paramattha version.
– Living beings with the perception of sammuti version of the world engage in unfruitful activities seeking pleasures in this world and only end up with NET suffering.
– When that understanding comes, one becomes an Arahant and attains Nibbana (separate from this world). Nibbana is the true paramattha sacca in Buddha Dhamma.2. There are other versions of the usage in different forms.
For example, when we use such expressions as ‘I’, ‘you’, ‘man’, ‘woman’, ‘person’, ‘individual’, we are speaking about things that do not exist in reality. They exist only for short durations within the beginningless rebirth process.
– the Ultimate Truth is that there is no ‘person’, ‘individual’ or ‘I’ that will last. The only unchanging reality is Nibbana.However, while living in this world, an Arahant or even the Buddha needs to use conventional terms like “I” and “me.”
Christian: Mahanama was not certain whether he had attained the Sotapanna stage.
There are many suttas that say a Sotapanna DOES NOT need further guidance. However, further guidance may help accelerate the progress.
– There were many people during the time of the Buddha who simply did not have the desire to make further progress. A good example is Vishaka, who attained the Sotapanna stage at age 7. Even though she visited the Buddha almost daily, she never progressed any further until death.I think we had enough discussion on that issue.
P.S. A “neyya” is an average person who has not yet heard or understood Dhamma to become even a Sotapanna Anugami. Of course, such a person does need guidance.
Lang: Yes. There are many ways to say the same thing.
1. Christian wrote, “I think it’s not really correct as the example of that person who was Sotapanna but didn’t believe it even if Buddha said so,.”
– Does the above sutta say that Susima was a Sotapanna? If so, please quote that verse.
– What I read was that Susima was not a Sotapanna. He had the wrong view that all Arahants would have supernormal powers, could read other people’s minds, etc.
2. Now, Christian’s request to clarify what is meant by the verse, “Pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan”ti.”
It says that one needs to first understand how to establish oneself in the Dhamma (Pubbe dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ) before being able to become a Sotapanna, i.e., “pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan” or the “path to Nibbana” comes later.
– “Pubbe” means “beforehand” AND “pacchā” means “later” or “next”.
– “Pubbe dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ” means one needs to first get rid of the ten types of miccha ditthi and also understand that one needs to learn Dhamma from a Noble Person (i.e., the four conditions must be satisfied: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“).The following post is by Christian:
From the “Susimaparibbājaka Sutta (SN 12.70)”
“Pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan”ti.
This is a very nice sutta, but can we get detail on this verse?
What I’m planning to do is or what I think is missing is a kind of system of reference when the practitioner can use certain information from sutta (types of people + types of practices, if they can attain or they do not have what it got to attain jhana) so there are further instructions, while it’s good to have all the information we have but there need to be the more precise way how people move up from Sotapanna further and what they need to do in their case. I know it may not be perfect because only Buddha can do that precisely but we need to have a general framework. For example, saying “Sotapanna will know the way to Nibbana” I think it’s not really correct as the example of that person who was Sotapanna but didn’t believe it even if Buddha said so, the problem is that “Sotapanna may see the way to Nibbana” but not necessary will execute steps properly even after seeing how things are and this may boil to various factors of types of people and types of knowledge people may have even with attainments, I think it’s very important to look at this otherwise most people will be stuck and dissatisfied even having proper understanding (which I saw this happening already)
The hardest part for a Sotapanna is to overcome kama raga.
– As we know, kama raga and patigha are related and both are lessened at the Sakadagami stage and removed at the Anagami stage.If you read many suttas in the Digha Nikaya like the Samannaphala Sutta (DN 2) that I mentioned above, they always describe the experience of a person who has become a bhikkhu, i.e., left the family life.
– It is quite difficult to overcome kama raga as a householder.
– But, of course, Dhamma will guide one to the Arahant stage even if that happens over a few lives. And, no rebirths in the apayas until that happens.P.S. Furthermore, as time goes on, the time in upacara/anuloma “samadhi states” will get longer. One will be get into jhana with time. As I also mentioned above, that time depends on the ability/habit to get into jhana cultivated over past recent lives.
P.P.S. As we also know, suppression/elimination of kama raga is also a requirement for anariya/Ariya jhana. That again is hard to do while being a “householder.”
If the verse is in the Tipitaka it should be, “sabbe pothujjanā ummattakā” meaning, “all average humans are engaged in useless activities like those who are insane”.
I have heard bhikkhus reciting that verse but I cannot find a sutta with that verse.
Sabbe = all; pothujjanā = average humans who have not attained at least the Sotapanna Anugami level
ummattakā = insane/mad (meaning “engaged in unfruitful activities”)The verse, “..kāmesu kāmasukhallikānuyogo hīno gammo pothujjaniko anariyo anatthasaṁhito..” is in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11).
I understand what both of you are saying.
Let me ask both of you a couple of questions before trying to give my thoughts.
1. Tobias wrote, ” after stream entry more formal meditation is required in order to get to deeper samadhi..”
– Do you mean getting to jhanas?
– You must get to deeper samadhi (anuloma, upacara) to get to the Sotapanna stage. See the last part of “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”
– But unless you get to a jhana AND stay there for a while, you may not realize that you got to upacara/anuloma stages. To get to a magga phala it may not take too long. Note that Upatissa (Ven. Sariputta) attained the Sotapanna stage just while hearing a verse.2. Christian wrote: “..most suttas do not explain meditations in details..”
They do. Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, Anāpānasati Sutta, provide the basis. However, those need to be explained in detail.
– See, for example, “Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta” and “9. Key to Ānapānasati – How to Change Habits and Character (Gati)”
– Also, see, “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)”
– So, it is preposterous to say (like that book) that Tipitaka does not teach how to meditate!Furthermore, people have the idea that one needs to cultivate formal meditation to attain magga phala.
– Jhana are NOT NECESSARY to attain at least the Sotapanna and Sakadagami stages, as I explained in response to Lang’s comment.
– Kayanupassana in particular and Satpiatthana in general (same as Anapanasati) are needed to get rid of kama raga/patigha and get to the Anagami stage. That is also called “Indriya bhavana” where one needs to CONSTANTLY be aware of getting attached to sensual thoughts.
– Once getting to the Sotapanna stage, one could do formal sessions.Focusing on jhana is the wrong approach. Most people get to anariya jhana and get stuck. Some of them even think they attained Nibbana!
P.S. It is not easy to get to even anariya jhanas.
– One must stay away from kama sankappa. That is hard to do for “householders” living family lives.
– That is why yogis in the old days went deep into jungles and stayed away from women.
– However, some people who had cultivated anariya jhana in previous recent lives may be able to anariya jhana without much effort. They are likely to have “less sensual desires” to begin with.Why should we take these claims by people who have no idea what Buddhism is?
These claims are preposterous. All necessary information on meditations (Anapanasati and Satipatthana have been in the Pali Tipitaka since the time of the Buddha.
– People may not have practiced those proper meditations within the past hundreds of years, thanks to Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga and other influences by Mahayana.P.S. I just did a quick search. The book is by Grzegorz Polak. I have no idea who it is. But just one review at Amazon on the book says:
“Most of this book is devoted to showing that most of the traditional vision of early Buddhist meditation is fundamentally wrong.” (page 16).Please no more quotes or discussions based on this book. I will delete such comments.
Lang’s questions/comments:
(1) It is true that some suttas describe Samma Samadhi as the four rupavacara jhanas.
– However, that probably means being able to get into all four jhanas at the COMPLETION of Samma Samadhi at the Arahant stage.
– We can easily see that getting into jhanas is NOT NECESSARY to attain at least the Sotapanna and Sakadagami stages. If ANY PERSON attains even the first Ariya OR anariya jhana, that person will be born in a Brahma realm, and WILL NOT be born in human or Deva realms. But we know that a Sotapanna could be reborn in human or Deva realms and a Sakadagami can be reborn in a Deva realm. That proves that even the first jhana is not necessary to attain the Sotapanna or Sakadagami stages.(2). The problem is with the following statement by Lang:
“The Bodhisatta experienced an ariya jhana as a boy and learned anariya jhanas from the 2 teachers.”The jhana that the Bodhisatta experienced WAS an anariya jhana. To get to an Ariya jhana, one must have attained a magga phala. The Bodhisatta attained ALL stages of magga phala during the night of his Enlightenment. A Bodhisatta CANNOT get to any stage of magga phala BEFORE the night of Enlightenment.
– The Bodhisatta attained the first anariya jhana as a boy under a rose apple tree per that account.
– Later on, he attained ALL anariya jhanas with the help of those two yogis, Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta.Christian found the name of the first sutta above. The following is the whole sutta and an acceptable translation for the discussion.
Christian, can you make your point using quotations from the English translation?
– I am trying to understand the point that you are trying to make.By the way, please provide links to the suttas in questions/comments.
– Some textbooks use “old ways of listing suttas” and it is very difficult to trace them. Usually, it is hard to comment on a sutta without looking at the whole sutta.
