October 14, 2021 at 12:02 pm #35806
#1. In the evolution of a citta that goes through 9 stages. The first stage citta, followed by mano, is the first stage of a citta where the 7 universal cetasika are? Or is the 7 universal cetasika also in the second stage mano, and in the third stage manasan and so on?
#2. In order for us human beings to experience vipaka vinnana, does that person citta have to evolve through the 9 stages of a citta to vinnanakkhhandha in order to experience vipaka vinnana?
October 14, 2021 at 1:08 pm #35810
I’m not able to edit the post, but for #2. I wanted to add
#2 In order for us human beings to experience vipaka vinnana, does that person citta “always” have to evolve through the 9 stages of a citta to the end of vinnanakkhandha in order to experience vipaka vinnana or is there another way where someone can experience vipaka vinnana without that persons’ citta evolving all the way to vinnanakkhandha?
October 14, 2021 at 3:59 pm #35815
All citta (except for an Arahant) go through nine stages. That happens within a billionth of a second. That applies to kamma vinnana or vipaka vinnana.
– Note that what we call vinnana is really the ninth stage, vinnanakkhandha. That is why we are able to recognize people, things, inatantly.
Also, see, “Amazingly Fast Time Evolution of a Thought (Citta)”
For an Arahant, it goes through only the first three stages: citta, mano, manasan. (Because there is no attachment to anything there is no hadayan).
– But it does get into the final stage of vinnanakkhandha (an Arahant also remembers). I have not discussed such details there.
We remember things instantaneously because all citta evolve to the vinnanakkhandha stage.
October 15, 2021 at 11:04 am #35824
Thank you Lal for the answers and the links.
I have been reading up on the post’s in the Abhidhamma section. I’m currently trying to figure something out and hoping these posts can help me to make sure I have understood something correctly. I rather be wrong, than blindly believing I’m right.
I have a question in regards to pabhassara citta.
“Therefore, a “pabhassara citta” is that base state, or the pure state of a citta, BEFORE it goes through the 9 stages of contamination. It has only the 7 universal cetasika.”
#1. I’m not sure if I have understood this paragraph correctly, but from what I can understand, is it correct for me to think that the first stage of the 9 changes of a citta, “citta” is the pabhassara citta with the 7 universal cetaiska? From this first stage “citta” (pabhassara citta), it continues to change / evolve through the rest of the stages.
What I understand is that any living being below Arahant / Buddha would never experience this pabhassara citta due to our citta’s evolving through the rest of the stages of a citta, as well get’s contaminated during this process. What we end up experiencing is the vinnanakkhanda. Even Arahant’s can only experience pabhassara citta during Arahant phala samapatti.
October 15, 2021 at 2:09 pm #35828
Pabhassara citta is the first stage in the 9 stages. So, it does not even get to the second stage of “mano”.
Even for an Arahant, a citta evolves to the third stage of “manasan.”
– But if the Arahant is in Arahant-phala Samapatti, that is when the Arahant experiences the pabhassara citta.
October 18, 2021 at 2:01 am #35846
When an Arahant is in Arahant-phala samapatti #1. are there citta vithi’s running? If there is, which citta vithi option below would you say is the closest to Arahant-Phala samapatti?
#2. B B B B B BC BU MD J J J J J J J J J J J
#3. B B B “BC BU MD U A G Pa Fr Fr Fr” B B B
#4. Something else. If it’s something else, can you please provide an example something similar to the layout of option #2 and #3
Thank you in advance.
If I was to answer this, I would say #1. “yes” there are citta vithi’s running while an Arahant is in Arahant-Phala samapatti and I would pick option #2 that I believe is closest to a citta vithi of an Arahant in Arahant-Phala samapatti.
October 18, 2021 at 4:27 am #35847SengKiatKeymaster
When an Arahant is in Arahant-phala samapatti #1. are there citta vithi’s running?
There are four types of Phala Samāpatti Vīthi, namely; Sotāpatti Phala Samāpatti, Sakadāgāmi Phala Samāpatti, Anāgāmi Phala Samāpatti, and Arahant Phala Samāpatti.
The Phala Samāpatti Vīthi is as below:
B Bc Bu Mn A A A A Ph Ph Ph Ph ………………
A is Anuloma.
Ph is one of the above four types of Phala Samāpatti.
With mettā, Seng Kiat
October 18, 2021 at 8:25 am #35850
To add to Seng Kiat’s comment:
Citta vithi completely cease in Nirodha Samapatti.
– That is different from Arahant-phala Samapatti.
October 18, 2021 at 2:49 pm #35857
THANK YOU SENGKIAT AND LAL !!
Without knowing that a topic that I have been contemplating on, I recently came across a video where it mentioned that this topic has been brought up often in the past, but not necessary here on puredhamma. I have been having a question on a topic for at least over half a year now, only until recently that I felt comfortable enough to be able to understand some abhidhamma concepts without needing to be babysat through and now I’m making the determination to get this question resolve or gain as much clarity on the topic as I can.
I’m in the process of writing out this topic and the question that I have in mind. While going through this process, there was a lot of difficult questions and explanations that I had to answer to myself in what I think and believed in. I came across two different explanations for the topic and question that I had in mind, but both explanations are not completely satisfactory to me.
Last night I thought I made such a major error in my contemplation that a lot of my answers and explanations would have to be thrown out on this topic. Literally I would have to start from scratch again and that would’ve been painful and maybe would’ve made me put off seeking answers to the question again. Because I wouldn’t know where to begin again. It’s like I have been trying to put a puzzle together using an incomplete or distorted puzzle outline picture and trying to figure out how to put all the pieces together.
Thank you again Lal and Sengkiat again for the help, it has cleared up some of this puzzle outline picture for me. After seeing your answers, it confirmed to me that I didn’t have the wrong idea in what I was thinking, which I thought I did last night. But instead, just not the correct detailed mechanism of how things would work out. If I couldn’t get this detailed mechanism correctly, then pretty much all the pieces of the puzzle that I have put together wouldn’t fit or make sense. Maybe such a thing might happen again while I’m writing out what I have in mind, but if there was two major mistake’s that I could’ve made during my contemplation process. One was just corrected or helped me to at least be able to explain what I have in mind.
Question, is there a limit like nirodha samapatti on how long an Arahant can stay in Arahant-Phala samapatti?
October 18, 2021 at 4:45 pm #35859cubibobiParticipant
The following post and forum may be relevant to what you are contemplating:
October 18, 2021 at 7:13 pm #35869
Thanks, Lang, for posting the relevant links!
The short answer to the question, ” is there a limit like nirodha samapatti on how long an Arahant can stay in Arahant-Phala samapatti?”:
– No. There is no limit to how long one can stay in Arahant-Phala samapatti.
– That also holds for jhana samapatti. In a regular jhana, one goes in and out of jhana (and could be aware of the surroundings.) But in a jhana samapatti one is totally absorbed in the jhana, and only jhana citta flow uninterrupted.
October 19, 2021 at 3:07 am #35873
Thank you Lang.
I’m thinking that it seems like being in Arahant-Phala Samapatti is more advantageous than being in Nirodha samapatti due to that Arahant-Phala Samapatti has no limit and nirodha samapatti does. But I need to think about the fact that if there’s something that has no limit compared to something that does, often times there’s drawbacks and benefits.
Even though Arahant – phala samapatti seems to be more advantageous due to having no limit, but the downside to this is that the Arahant probably isn’t experiencing the full bliss of Nibbana due to still being connected with citta which belongs to one of the ultimate realities of this world.
While Nirodha samapatti has limit, but an Arahant in nirodha samapatti has no connection to citta and would experience the full bliss of Nibbana which does not belong to this world.
It seems like nirodha samapatti bliss of Nibbana is a higher grade / a step above Arahant-phala samapatti?
October 19, 2021 at 6:01 am #35874
“It seems like nirodha samapatti bliss of Nibbana is a higher grade / a step above Arahant-phala samapatti?”
November 12, 2022 at 1:32 am #41335Tobias GParticipant
Abhidhamma manuals say that citta and cetasika arise and cease together (ekuppada and ekanirodha). How can this be seen in relation to the nine stages of a citta where obviously cetasika come in step by step?
November 12, 2022 at 5:43 am #41337
The nine stages represent different stages of evolvement with more cetasika. Each stage has an increasing number of cetasika as that initial “citta” stage gets increasingly contaminated.
– The final stage of vinnanakkhandha is quite complex.
We never experience the intermediate stages starting with the “citta” stage. We only experience the final stage of vinnanakkhandha.
– This evolvement in nine stages is discernible only to the mind of a Buddha.
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