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Yes, Lang. It is very difficult to overcome those views (ditthi) that have been in families for generations. But, hopefully, at least some will be able to spend time and see that Buddha’s description of the “wider world” must be true.
All religions are based on “lokiya concepts”.
– Those were all initiated by humans with the “nicca view” and “nicca sanna“. They try to come up with a permanent existence (in a heavenly realm).Buddha Dhamma is a worldview discovered by the Buddha. His was not a conjecture; he saw all those realms and interacted with beings in those realms.
“On page 127, you can see that “investigating consciousness” does not only perform the function of “investigating” inside a CV, but also the function of Bhavanga, which might be what we are looking for..”
-No. We are looking for a manodvara vipaka citta.
– That would correspond to the “eye-consciousness” etc. that come through the five physical senses as vipaka. You see those five listed in the Table on p. 43.P.S. Bhavanga is “state of the mind” at a given time. It is not a citta. I have referred to two posts on bhavanga.
Comments by Daniel:
Daniel: “In the unwholesome-vipaka list, there are the 5 that lead to the 5 senses- event that Lal list in his article.”
– Yes. They are also listed on p. 43 Table 1.3 in CMA (book by Bhikkhu Bodhi).
– There 5 more for wholesome-vipaka listed in the same Table.
– All those come through the 5 physical senses.Daniel: “Then there are two more unwholesome-resultants, the receiving and investigating consciousness.”
– Those are NOT the initial vipaka citta. They are two cittas that follow the vipaka citta in a citta vithi with 17 citta representing a sense input coming through the 5 physical senses; see. p. 155 of CMA.
– So, those two citta are NOT vipaka citta initiating a manodvara process.What I am saying is that there is no citta on Table 1.3 representing a vipaka citta coming through the manodvara.
– If you look at the 6 processes that Tobias posted in his first post at the top of this thread:
cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpē ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ,
sōtañca paṭicca saddē ca uppajjāti sōtaviññāṇaṃ,
ghānañca paṭicca gandhē ca uppajjāti ghānaviññāṇaṃ ,
jivhañca paṭicca rasē ca uppajjāti jivhāviññāṇaṃ,
kāyañca paṭicca phōṭṭhabbē ca uppajjāti kāyaviññāṇaṃ,
manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃthere is no vipaka citta representing the 6th process that I highlighted above in Table 1.3.
– That is the issue to tackle.
– By the way, my post that Tobias referred to does not address that either. I just did not notice it at the time.Tobias asked: “I guess such a being still has a bhavanga flow?” (regarding an asanna satta).
Yes. The bhavanga is there, but no active citta vithi.
Tobias wrote: “No, a door freed citta performs the rebirth linking for every being.”
A citta DOES NOT perform rebirth linking.
– In the last citta vithi, at the fifth javana, creates the javana power to make the MINDSET (temporary bhavanga) for the kammic energy to create the next bhava. The “temporary bhavanga” is explained at: “State of Mind in the Absence of Citta Vithi – Bhavaṅga” and “Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained!”
– Creation of the manomaya kaya i.e., the hadaya vatthu and any appropriate pasada rupa) is NOT done by a citta. It is done by kammic energy (that is why “gandhabba kaya” or “manomaya kaya” is a “kammaja kaya”).I cannot explain it any more than this right now. I need to finish the next post. But feel free to comment or raise questions.
– You and others can continue the discussion if needed. I will comment whenever I can.The statement on p. 138 of CMA:
“The object of the door-freed consciousness in any given existence is generally identical with the object of the last cognitive process in the immediately preceding existence..”Where does that “last cognitive process” comes in (for an arupavacara Brahma)?
– For a human, it can come through the five physical senses as well.Tobias: Your question (as I understood) is related to BOTH my post and Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA as I explained above.
You wrote: “I think it is remarkable that there is no akusala vipaka directly via the mind-door or via dhammā.”
– That is exactly the issue in my mind.
– Is it not possible that an akusala vipaka directly via the mind-door or via dhammā?
– I think it is not only possible but necesssary. For example, at the cuti-patisandhi moment, a vipaka bring the next bhava can come through any of the six senses. How does an arupavacara Brahma grasp the next bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment? He has only the mind-door.Tobias wrote:
“The reply from Seng Kiat should give the answer: all six are called dhammārammaṇa. Thus it is clear, that a dhammā is cognized by the mind door process with a manodvaravajjanacitta.”It is quite clear that a dhammā is cognized by the mind-door process with a manodvaravajjana citta.
– I thought your original question was why that process is not listed in Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) book or in my post that you quoted.Regarding the comments by the TripleGemStudent:
The following posts could be helpful: “How Are Paṭicca Samuppāda Cycles Initiated?” and “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa”
– Those are a bit deep.
– A vipaka vinnana, arising with a cakkhu vinnana for example, does not have consciously-made lobha, dosa, moha. However, that citta also goes through the 9-step process and thus one’s gati are incorporated. I think that is the simplest answer to your questions.My answer to Tobias’s question is as follows:
A human with ahetuka/dvihetuka (Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book has it as ahetuka/duhetuka) birth cannot attain magga phala OR jhanas in this human bhava.
– I think that is what Bhikkhu Bodhi is trying to say there. The discussion on that page is on (ahetuka) and double-rooted (dvihetuka) individuals.
– One MUST have a triple-rooted kamma (with all three “good roots” of alobha, adosa, amoha) giving rise to a “tihetuka birth” to be able to attain magga phala/jhana.By the way, dvihetuka birth is brought by a kamma done with two “good roots”: amoha/alobha OR amoha/adosa.
– An ahetuka birth there DOES MEAN “without any roots” (i.e., no alobha, adosa, or amoha). That kamma may have just alobha or adosa without any understanding. The word “ahetuka” refers to the “helpless nature” of such a birth.
– While a dvihetuka person can accumulate punna kamma that can lead to a tihetuka birth in the future, a person who has an “ahetuka birth” is not capable of that. Those are persons born with severe disabilities.Furthermore, it is NOT possible to determine whether a given person is dvihetuka or tihetuka.
– This is a tricky issue and sometimes people get discouraged whether they have a dvihetuka birth. For example, Ven. Culapanthaka almost gave up the robes because he could not memorize even a single verse. But he had a tihetuka birth. A previous akusala kamma had been “covering his mind”. Luckily the Buddha was there to see that and to give an appropriate kammatthana to overcome that situation. He attained Arahanthood overnight.
– So, we all should assume that we have tihetuka births and make effort. That effort will bear fruit either way.1. First I want to make a comment on the discussion between Lang and Tobias.
Here we need to make a distinction between “recalling past memory” and a “dhammā coming to the mind”.
– Recalling a past memory (namagotta with no kammic energy) REQUIRES us making an effort to recall that memory.
– On the other hand, a dhammā can come to the mind as a kamma vipaka. A dhammā has kammic energy.
– That is important to understand.Therefore, a memory of a friend cannot just come to the mind by itself (via namagotta).
– It was probably initiated by a dhammā coming to the mind as a kamma vipaka. In response, one may recall other related memories.2. My second comment is on the original issue: How does a kamma vipaka come DIRECTLY to the mind-door (as a dhammā)? That is not listed in Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book (or my posts).
– This may be what Bhikkhu Bodhi is trying to explain on p. 164 at the bottom of the page:
“(2) An independent mind-door process occurs when any of the six sense objects enters the range of cognition entirely on its own, not as a consequence of an immediately preceding sense-door process..”
– The end of the above statement refers to the fact that each five-door sense detection (with a citta vithi of 17 citta) is ALWAYS followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. I have not discussed this in my posts, I believe.
– So, by “An independent mind-door process” he probably means a sense detection initiated without coming through the five sense-doors, i.e., a mind-door process initiated by a dhammā coming directly to the mind-door. But his explanation is not clear. He is quoting Ledi Sayadaw’s speculation, I believe. No reference to the Tipitaka is given.
– So, the original question remains unanswered so far (unless I missed something in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s explanation).Yes. The “mind-door adverting” citta (M) corresponds to the “five-door adverting” citta (F) in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book.
Those two cittas correspond to PD and MV citta in my post on citta vithi:
“Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”But that does not resolve the issue. Does it?
This is a good question. I need to think about this further.
In the book, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” Bhikkhu Bodhi has listed these cittas on p. 43. That is the same as what I have in the post.
– But I see the point that Tobias is making. Unwholesome/wholesome vipaka can come through the mana indriya (as dhammā).If anyone has any ideas, please post.
I think it is best not to mix Buddha Dhamma with concepts in Yoga or other Vedic teachings. As I have mentioned before, such teachings are distorted versions of the Buddha Dhamma.
– Even during Buddha Gotama’s time, such teachings were there coming from the Buddha Kassapa (the Buddha preceding Buddha Gotama). – A brief description of that at: “Arōgyā Paramā Lābhā..”
– As a reminder, there had been three Buddhas before Buddha Gotama on this Earth (i.e., during this Maha Kappa).Question 1: Mano sankhara arise automatically based on our gati and the particular sense-object (without conscious thinking.)
– Then if we start consciously thinking or speaking about the subject matter, those involve vaci sankhara.
– If we go further and take bodily actions, those involve kaya sankhara.
– It is important to understand the types of sankhara; “Saṅkhāra – What It Really Means”Question 2: What you are doing is exactly right. When negative/immoral thoughts come to the mind you need to shift the mind to the opposite of those (or at least to something different). That is the correct Anapanasati meditation.
