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Vipassana meditation is badly interpreted these days.
– The conventional idea is that one should sit in formal meditation and do “breath mediation” first and then vipassana. But the emphasis is on “breath mediation”. At least the practitioners get stuck in breath meditation since that does lead to some kind of samadhi and even anariya jhana.Furthermore, the type of vipassana being taught is incorrect too, most of the time.
In order to REMOVE defilements, one MUST first understand the unfruitful and dangerous nature of this world.
– That is the core teaching of the Buddha embedded in the Four Noble Truths, Tilakkhana, and Paticca Samuppada.
– It is not possible to explain that in a forum post. I recommend reading the following section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda, Tilakkhana, Four Noble Truths”This is also what I just tried to explain in the other thread that you started sometime back:
“Attaining Anariya Jhana as a Sotapanna”It could be a good idea to read the English translation of the whole sutta at Sutta Central. “Upakkilesa Sutta (MN 138)“. Even though the translation is not that good, one can get the background for the verses by the Buddha that Christian quoted. That quote comes at the very end of the sutta.
– In fact, the initial part of the sutta is not directly relevant for our discussion here.
– Start reading about 1/3 way into the sutta with the following “Then Anuruddha, Nandiya, and Kimbila came out to greet the Buddha…”Here is a brief summary;
Some time into the conversation with Anuruddha, Nandiya, and Kimbila, the Buddha asks:
“Good, good, Anuruddha and friends!
But as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a meditation at ease? ”This is better stated as “.. as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any jhana worthy of the noble ones (i.e., Ariya jhana)?
Ven. Anuruddha replies that they have attained jhana, but those are anariya jhana (i.e., they are unable to REMOVE kama raga, etc)
Then the Buddha tells them that while he was a Bodhisatta, he faced the same problem. Then he explains why.
For example, the following verses:
But before long my light and vision of forms vanished.
So kho pana me obhāso nacirasseva antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānaṁ.It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, anuruddhā, etadahosi:‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’
‘ko nu kho hetu ko paccayo yena me obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānan’ti?
It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, anuruddhā, etadahosi:‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away.
‘vicikicchā kho me udapādi, vicikicchādhikaraṇañca pana me samādhi cavi.When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish.
Samādhimhi cute obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānaṁ.I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.’
Sohaṁ tathā karissāmi yathā me puna na vicikicchā uppajjissatī’ti.***
Then the Buddha describes other reasons why the Bodhisatta could not get rid of those other types of defilements.
Then in the end he explains how he was finally able to REMOVE those defilements (not just suppress them). Those are the verses that Christian quoted.
Here is that verse:
“So kho ahaṁ, anuruddhā, savitakkampi savicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ. ”
– He got to the first jhana by cultivating savitakka/savicara.
– Second, third, fourth, and fifth jhana via “avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, ” avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, “sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, “nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ” and “upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ”
– Note that here the second jhana is divided into two. In most suttas, the second and third jhana in the above description are combined as the second jhana.So, the point is that many people are able to attain jhana just by doing breath meditation. Some, like Ven. Anuruddha, who may have been trying to follow the instructions of the Buddha but had not yet comprehended Tilakkhana (i.e., the Four Noble Truths correctly) may get into anariya jhana.
– To correctly cultivate savitakka/savicara, one MUST have comprehended Tilakkhana.
– As you see, the “meat” is in that verse quoted by Christian. That needs to be explained in detail.You can see how those correspond to the four jhanas in the post, “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)”
– For example, #4 of that post describes getting into the second jhana as “removal of vitakka/vicāra”. In the above verse that is done via two steps (i.e., second jhana is divided into two jhana).An introduction is at, “Samādhi, Jhāna, Magga Phala – Introduction“
The following post is from Christian:
MN 128
Now let me develop immersion in three ways.’
Handa dānāhaṁ tividhena samādhiṁ bhāvemī’ti.I developed immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected; without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected; without placing the mind or keeping it connected; with rapture; without rapture; with pleasure; with equanimity.
So kho ahaṁ, anuruddhā, savitakkampi savicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ.Can we get an explanation of “keeping it connected, without placing the mind…” etc?
Removal of kama raga is a REQUIREMENT for the Anagami stage.
– But the removal of kama raga is NOT SUFFICIENT to attain Ariya jhana or even anariya jhana. There could be Anagamis without the ability to get into any jhana.Getting to jhana is something that requires a focused effort.
– Of course, some people who had cultivated jhana in the recent past lives can get into jhana without much effort. But those would be anariya jhana.The easiest way to verify whether one has even the first Ariya jhana is to watch an adult movie and see whether one does not get any sexual thoughts (an X-rated movie would be a better confirmation).
If you had attained anariya jhana BEFORE becoming a Sotapanna, then it would be EASIER to convert that to an Ariya jhana.
But I don’t think it will AUTOMATICALLY turn into an Ariya jhana due to the following reasons.
1. Kama raga is only temporarily SUPPRESSED in the first anariya jhana. Thus, even though one with that WILL BE born in a lower Brahma realm upon death, that Brahma WILL come back to the human realm and could be born in an apaya in future lives. That is because kama raga anusaya remains intact in an anariya jhana.
2. One gets to the FIRST Ariya jhana by REMOVING kama raga, i.e.,kama raga anusaya is not there even in the FIRST Ariya jhana.
– Thus, if one gets to the First Ariya jhana one is essentially an Anagami.Hello,
It means someone who attains “Ariyakanta sīla” (i.e., a Noble Person) has moral conduct (sīla) that is unbreakable, without gaps (cracks), spotless (without blemishes), self-consistent, liberating, providing penetrating wisdom, not leading astray, and leading to samādhi.
There was a related discussion at, “Post on “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās”
More information on “saddhānusārī” in that quoted post too: “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās”
– “Faith” must be based on understanding, not just “blind faith”.Hello Christian,
It is spelled as “gati” even though pronounced “gathi.”
For Āsava, see, “4 results for āsavasutta”
There are many suttas that discuss those. “11090 results for gati and āsava”
– Some of them may not be relevant, but you can probably find some there.Also note the convention adopted to write “Tipitaka English”: ““Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1”
– Otherwise, the words will be too long.
– That is why “gathi” is written as “gati.”I am impressed with your motivation, Jorg. Perseverance is the key to learning Buddha Dhamma.
Please feel free to ask questions as you read.
To add a bit to Tobias’s post:
Moha is a strong version of avijja.
– If one has the 10 types of miccha ditthi then one can act with moha. With moha, one cannot even comprehend Paticca Samuppada.
– Someone who has overcome/removed 10 types of miccha ditthi can start comprehending the Noble Truths/PS/Tilakkhana if exposed to the correct versions.1. The reason that the PS starts with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” is that avijjā is the root cause.
– If one fully understands PS (an Arahant), one would have fully understood how future suffering arises by generating abhisaṅkhāra due to avijjā. That means an Arahant’s mind would not attach to any arammana regardless of how enticing it is.However, no one acts with avijjā at all times. Even the worst immoral person may engage in moral deeds sometimes.
– Thus, avijjā remains “hidden” most of the time. The Pali word is “anusaya.”That avijjā comes to surface when we get attached to an enticing sensory input (arammana).
– That is why the PS is normally TRIGGERED by sensory input (arammana).That initial attachment is tanha.
– Upon attaching, the mind will start trying to “get more of that arammana” by “keeping that arammana close”. That is the “tanha paccaya upadana” step.
– That is when one starts acting with avijja by thinking defiled thoughts (mano and vaci abhisankhara), speaking, and doing unwise things (vaci and kaya abhisankhara).
– Then the other steps will follow: “sankhara paccaya vinnana“, “vinnana paccaya namarupa“, etc.2. Sometimes it may not be clear that avijjā has been triggered by an arammana.
– It is clear that we get attached to things that we see, hear, taste, smell, or touch (five physical senses). However, there is a sixth way that an arammana comes in and that is not always evident.
– That sixth way is for an arammana to come directly to the mind. That is the case when we had ALREADY formed an expectation (i.e., had formed an attachment) with an arammana that came through the five physical senses sometime back. For example, one may have seen an attractive person a few days ago and had formed an expectation to date that person. Then that can come back to the mind as an arammana at any time.
– Details on that at, “Chachakka Sutta – Six Types of Vipāka Viññāna“. That is a bit deeper post. The point is that an arammana can come in via one of the six senses as a vipaka vinnana. So, another way to say is: that the PS process is triggered by a vipaka vinnana. There are different ways to express the same concept.3. The reason that I wrote the post that you brought up is the following. Sometime back, Upekkha100 asked about the difference between tanha and upadana at this discussion forum. It could be useful to read that discussion: “Difference between Tanha and Upadana”
Could the word be “parikappa”?
If not, where did you come across it? A sutta?
Hello Jorg,
You wrote: “It’s somewhat confusing to me in regard to the PS cycle, since there it’s avija paccaya sankhara, paccaya vinnana all the way to tanha paccaya upadana. But here, in the chart, it shows sankhara are happening in between these two steps.”
Even though the PS cycle, in its standard form, starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara” that NEVER happens in practice.
– We don’t just start acting with avijja without a reason.It is only if we get attached to a sensory input (arammana) that we start acting with avijja.
– First, we attach with tanha.
– Then it is at the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, that we start acting with avijja. “Upadana” means to “keep that arammana close” and try to get more enjoyment.
– That is explained in #4 of the post.That is an important point. I tried to explain it systematically in the new series of posts:
“Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime”If you read those starting with the first post there, it could be more clear.
Please feel free to ask questions from any of those posts.
Hello,
You wrote, ” In some of your writings you say that we can’t really say much about what nibbana is like, because it is so far beyond any worldly experience. And in one place you even say that one arrives at nibbana at the 8th jhana.”
That is not true. Please provide the link to my post and quote from it.
One attains Nibbana when all defilements (lobha, dosa, moha) are removed from one’s mind. That is Arahanthood.
– But Nibbana becomes complete when that Arahant dies and is not reborn in any of the 31 realms in this world. That is “Parinibbana” or “full Nibbana” for an Arahant.“dhammā” needs to be understood in the context.
In “Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā?” the question is asked: “WHAT are anidassanaappaṭighā?”
– That DOES NOT imply that “Nibbāna is a dhammā”
There are dhammā that come in “manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjāti manoviññāṇaṃ.”
– On the way to Arahanthood one experiences various stages of magga phala via contact with the mind.However, once an Arahant attains Parinibbana, there are no more “contacts with the mind” since that Arahant is not reborn with a hadaya vatthu.
Does that answer the question? May be I am not understanding the question.
