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I have revised the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- Please don’t hesitate to ask questions. If anything is unclear, I can revise it as needed.
It is good to continue this discussion. I need to finish the following post that I have been postponing:
Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada – Acting With Alōbha, Adōsa, Amōha
1. I used another section of the “Paticcasamuppada Vibhanga” for that original post, where it is stated:
kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa; viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana, saḷāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā cittapasado, cittapasada paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkho paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jara, maranan, eva me tassa dhammanan samudhayo hoti.
On the other hand, the verse quoted by Zapper starts with:
Katame dhammā kusalā? Yasmiṁ samaye lokuttaraṁ jhānaṁ bhāveti niyyānikaṁ apacayagāmiṁ diṭṭhigatānaṁ pahānāya paṭhamāya bhūmiyā pattiyā vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati dukkhapaṭipadaṁ dandhābhiññaṁ, tasmiṁ samaye avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā pasādo, pasādapaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.
- Both end up with “dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.” That is one contradiction.
2. There are two other contradictions.
- In the first verse above “kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra” is a contradiction. One cannot generate sankhara via kusala-mula.” Sankhara generation happens with akusala in mind.
- In the second verse above, it starts with Katame dhammā kusalā? and then to “tasmiṁ samaye avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro.” How can be kusala associated with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro“?
3. Finally, kusala means to avoid from akusala. There are no specific kusala kamma. See “Kusala Sutta (AN 10.180).” The confusion is to mix up puñña kamma with kusala kamma.
- Nibbana is reached via cultivating wisdom (paññā.) This is done by fully understanding the Paticca Samuppada process. As I just pointed out in the discussion, “Witness consciousness and Buddha nature,” that leads to breaking samyojana/anusaya.
Yes. That is a good point.
I should have written that as follows (see my comment on November 28, 2024, at 8:15 pm):
- Those cittas arise (in hadaya vatthu) due to causes and conditions in the “purana kamma” stage. (see #2 below).
- Then, in #2 below, I explained the “purana kamma” and “nava kamma” stages. Kamma accumulation in the “nava kamma” stage happens consciously. This is where we have control of our thoughts while we engage in kamma accumulation via body, speech, and mind (as indicated by kaya, vaci, mano kamma or dasa akusala); see the chart in #4 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- I will revise that post to include the above. It is an important point.
Once we abstain from dasa akusala, our minds become increasingly amenable to learning Dhamma. Then, we can understand the whole Paticca Samuppada process. The “automatic occurrence” of the “purana kamma” stage stops when our understanding (paññā) grows and the “mental bonds” of samyojana/anusaya break. See my earlier comment on November 28, 2024, at 9:55 am. There, I wrote:
“Let me list a few points to think about:
1. Step 8 is the critical one. As long as one has not removed certain samyojana/anusaya, that mind will automatically attach to the object if it is “an object of interest.” Conscious thinking is NOT involved.
- This is why it is so hard to resist “temptations” and lose “kama raga.”
- To remove that “automatic attachment,” one must fully understand the “true nature” (called “yathābhuta ñāṇa.”)..”
Yes. There are some contradictions in the “Paticcasamuppada Vibhanga.”
- I try to focus on the Sutta Pitaka regarding Paticca Samuppada.
There, “pi” means “also.”
- Birth, getting old, getting sick, etc., are all suffering.
However, besides the apparent mundane meaning that getting old and getting sick are suffering, there is a deeper meaning, too.
- A birth means still trapped in the rebirth process with suffering. All births end up in old age, suffering, and death.
I took a quick look at the videos.
- It seems the first video is on Vedic teachings. That is not Buddha’s teachings.
- I did not watch enough of the second video to determine whether it contained helpful information. It seems that the bhikkhu described his own meditative experience.
1. A mind arises in hadaya vatthu. It is in the manomaya kaya (mental body or the gandhabba).
- In your steps (in the earlier comment), that hadaya vatthu receives the “object” via the cakkhu pasada rupa in step #6.
- Hadaya vatthu is the “seat of the mind,” where thoughts (cittas) arise.
- Those cittas arise (in hadaya vatthu) due to causes and conditions.
- So, we know about the mind as a “defined entity.”
2. Kammic energy is generated only if raga, dosa, moha arise in the cittas.
- Kammic accumulation takes place in two stages. (i) In the “purana kamma” stage, where defiled thoughts arise automatically due to samyojana/anusaya, kammic energies generate are weak; they do not contribute to future bhava (i.e., to bring future rebirths). (ii) If the mind starts focusing on the object, then (after the “tanha paccaya upadana” step in Paticca Samuppada) potent kammic energies (that can bring future rebirths) are generated via conscious thoughts. That is the “nava kamma” stage.
- I don’t know whether you read the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.” You probably started reading this website after it was posted on 1/11/24. See “New / Revised Posts.” A series of posts after 11/4/23 focused on a deeper analysis.
3. I do not understand what you are trying to say in steps #1 through #5 in your last comment.
The seven steps that Taryal wrote are correct.
We can itemize what Taryal wrote after that, too:
8. “So far, it is a plain awareness (vipāka viññāṇa). But if it is an object of interest, the initial attachment is automatic.
9. Then, the person can choose to generate conscious thoughts about the object or try to avoid it by distracting themselves. I think this is what causes the perception of ‘I’ or ‘me’. But if a single condition above is removed, awareness of the object can not occur..”
Let me list a few points to think about:
1. Step 8 is the critical one. As long as one has not removed certain samyojana/anusaya, that mind will automatically attach to the object if it is “an object of interest.” Conscious thinking is NOT involved.
- This is why it is so hard to resist “temptations” and lose “kama raga.”
- To remove that “automatic attachment,” one must fully understand the “true nature” (called “yathābhuta ñāṇa.”)
- That means one must understand why we are attached to specific objects. We experience a “sweet taste” with honey, attractive odors of flowers or sounds, the beauty of a woman, etc.
- The stronger the attachment, the more likely one would like to make the object “mine.”
2. All those enticing experiences arise with “sanna” built into our mental and physical bodies.
- Each species has its own set of “appealing objects.” Of course, some could be overlapping, but there are distinct differences.
- For example, humans and bears find honey sweet, cows find grass appealing, and lions and tigers eat only the flesh of other animals.
3. The basic idea is in several suttas. I will list only two for now: “Saññā Sutta (AN 6.110)“, “Saññānānatta Sutta (sn 14.7),”
- Another is “Saññā Sutta (SN 26.6).” @ 1.3: “Yo kho, bhikkhave, rūpasaññāya uppādo ṭhiti …pe…jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo …pe…” means “The arising of (distorted) perception of sights leads to old age and death.” (i.e., suffering).” Note that the English translation there did not even translate the critical second part of the verse.)
- Then, @ 1.5, “Yo ca kho, bhikkhave, rūpasaññāya nirodho …pe…jarāmaraṇassa atthaṅgamo …pe…” meaning “The cessation of (distorted) perception of sights is the ending of old age and death.”
- That distorted saññā is built into our bodies via Paticca Samuppada. Therefore, it cannot be removed. However, understanding this mechanism (i.e., cultivating paññā) leads to breaking the “kama raga“ samyojana. Hence, an Arahant or Anagami would also taste honey to be sweet or a particular woman to be attractive, but their minds will not generate kama raga.
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The following post also provides more information about this subject:
“Loka Sutta – Origin and Cessation of the World“
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My apologies for not posting the regular weekly post. I was traveling and got sick. It could be a few more days before I can post.
Hello Amin,
You wrote (just before the video above): “And he has made a new interview. And he is saying a lot of confusing things.
If somebody can explain what he is talking about that would be great.”I thought we concluded that he did not understand Buddha’s teachings well. For example, he interpreted Satipatthana as “breath meditation.” (If I am incorrect about that conclusion, please point it out.)
- If my conclusion about him is correct, why must we still analyze his comments? What is the benefit?
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Thank you for taking the time to make a video for us, Bhante.
- It is good to hear from you. We are happy to see you as a bhikkhu committed to attaining Nibbana. Please keep us informed of your progress.
- Also, please convey our regards to the Jethavanarama community.
May you attain Nibbana in this life! May the Blessing of Triple Gem be with you in your efforts!
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I stated in my previous comment what is to be done once one is on the Noble Path.
- To start on the Noble Path, one must first become a Sotapanna by understanding the worldview of the Buddha and developing faith (saddha) based on that understanding. While doing that, one would also remove the ten types of wrong views (miccha ditthi.)
- I have discussed that in many posts; of course, it is not easy to find them without some guidance. Let me point out a few posts that could be helpful.
“Sila, Samadhi, Panna to Panna, Sila, Samadhi“, “Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna),” “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma”,” and “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala.”
- There are other posts. However, many of them are likely referred to in the above posts.
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Some subtle issues need to be clarified. I will only address #1 of Pathfinder’s comment for now.
1. The Tipitaka does not mention a Akusala Mūla Paṭicca Samuppāda.
- The Buddha discussed only one Paṭicca Samuppāda. It explains how a mind attaches to this world with a defiled mind, i.e., with raga, dosa, and moha.
- There are ten samyojana (samsaric bonds) associated with the mind of an average human (puthujjana.) These samsaric bonds can be broken only by fully understanding the Paṭicca Samuppāda process.
2. All ten “samyojana” (“san” + “yoga” or “bonds for the rebirth process”) arise due to “san” (raga, dosa, moha.)
- Raga and dosa do not arise together, but each arises with moha.
- Thus, all ten samyojana have moha.
3. A Sotapanna has removed three ditthi samyojana. Those are primarily rooted in moha.
- Kama raga samyojana has raga and moha primarily. Patigha samyojana has dosa and moha primarily. These two are removed at the Anagami stage.
- Rupa raga and arupa raga samyojanas have raga and moha primarily. Mana, uddhacca, and avijja samyojanas have moha primarily. These five are removed at the Arahant stage.
4. The goal of cultivating the Noble Path is to break those samyojanas, which can happen only by removing avijja/moha from one’s mind.
5. This can be seen by understanding what is meant by “kusala.”
- Kusala means to abstain from akusala. See “Kusala Sutta (AN 10.180)” and “Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala).”
- There is nothing to do except to eliminate avijja/moha from one’s mind. Then, the mind will automatically stop engaging in akusala kamma, including those three types done by the mind. It happens in a step-by-step process described by #3 above.
