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Even though we are amazed by the ability of that yogi in Taryal’s video to withstand fire and not get burned, the supernormal abilities of some Arahants (not all) to engage in various supernormal activities is mind-boggling.
See, for example, “Mahāsakuludāyi Sutta (MN 77),” where the Buddha says:
“Furthermore, I have explained to my disciples a practice that they use to wield the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying themselves and becoming one again; appearing and disappearing; going unobstructed through a wall, a rampart, or a mountain as if through space; diving in and out of the earth as if it were water; walking on water as if it were earth; flying cross-legged through the sky like a bird; touching and stroking with the hand the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. They control the body as far as the realm of divinity.”
- In that verse, “touching and stroking with the hand the sun and moon” requires one to reach the Sun and touch it. Of course, one would do that with the manomaya kaya, made of only a few suddhatthaka. That manomaya kaya can instantly travel to the Sun and not be burned by the unimaginable heat there. As discussed in the “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” the higher Brahma realms (where Brahmas’ “bodies” are made of only a few suddhatthaka) are not destroyed in a “loka vinasaya” (destruction of the lower realms) caused by a supernova event, which causes the heat of “seven Suns.” Once the fundamentals are understood, such phenomena are no longer “miracles.”
- Several suttas describe similar capabilities. I have discussed a few in the link provided above. See, for example, “Pāṭihāriya (Supernormal Abilities) of a Buddha – Part I” and Part II.
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It is an interesting video.
- It seems this yogi has perfected the anariya “tejo kasina” meditation using fire as the meditation object.
- Breath meditation is an anariya “vayo kasina” meditation using the breath as the meditation object.
- They also do anariya “pathavi and apo kasina” meditations using a ball of clay and a bowl of water as meditation objects.
As we have discussed pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo all have the mind as their precursor. See “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka.”
- It is possible to “control those elements” with the mind and exploit that to engage in various “supernormal activities.”
- For example, even during the Buddha’s time, some yogis who perfected breath meditation (vayo kasina) could travel through the air by making their bodies “light.”
- Even these days, there are yogis who can lie on “beds of nails,” who have likely developed anariya “pathavi kasina” meditation.
- I have discussed some of these aspects in “Buddhahood Associated Controversies.”
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Yes, Gad. Those are good examples. Thank you!
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Yes. These types of beliefs can become “silabbata paramasa.” They are “mental blockers.”
- Another common silabbata paramasa is to believe one cannot attain a magga phala without getting into a jhana.
“The key point here is the importance of associating with noble people.”
- Who suggested that is not important? I don’t think anyone suggested that.
- However, you may think “association” means constantly seeing and talking to them. That would be an added benefit but not a necessary condition.
- All one needs from an Ariya (Nobel Person) is an explanation of the Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppada, Tilakkhana, etc. If you disagree with that, that is fine. Everyone is free to believe whatever they like.
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I have revised the post “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala” to clarify the point.
5. There is an ongoing debate about whether the Sotapanna magga phala moment is possible only when listening to Dhamma. In the following video (starting around 8 minutes), Waharaka Thero says that is the requirement. He says one could read and get to the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage, but the phala moment occurs only while listening to a discourse by an Ariya.
- However, attaining the Sotapanna phala moment can happen anytime, anywhere while contemplating. Of course, one must have learned the necessary Dhamma concepts from a Noble Person (an Ariya.)
- We can look at two accounts from the Tipitaka to verify the above statement (apparently, Waharaka Thero was unaware of them.) Ven. Koṇḍañña attained the Sotapanna phala moment while contemplating the Dhamma he learnt from the first discourse delivered by the Buddha: “Imasmiñca pana veyyākaraṇasmiṁ bhaññamāne āyasmato koṇḍaññassa virajaṁ vītamalaṁ dhammacakkhuṁ udapādi.” It is mistranslated as “And while this discourse was being spoken, the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in Venerable Koṇḍañña.” See “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11).” The correct translation is, “While contemplating (analyzing) the Dhamma he learned from the Buddha, the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in Venerable Koṇḍañña (i.e., he attained the Sotapanna phala moment.)
- Another example is Ven. Cittahattha’s account, “The Five Dullabha (Rare Things).” See the description under “Venerable Cittahattha’s Account” and other comments. Another reference to Ven. Cittahattha’s account: “Dhammapada Verses 38 and 39: Cittahatthatthera Vatthu.” As stated in those accounts, Ven. Cittahattha attained the Sotapanna phala moment while walking to the monastery to become a bhikkhu for the seventh time; while walking, he contemplated the Dhamma he had learned.
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In the above, I wrote, “However, one must be able to interpret the meanings of certain Pali words depending on the context. For example, in many cases, phassa, vedana, sankhara, cetana refer to samphassa, “samphassa-ja-vedana”, abhisankhara, sancetana.”
- That is explained a bit more in the rewritten post I just posted: “Kamma are Done with Abhisaṅkhāra – Types of Abhisaṅkhāra“
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I have explained the following in recent discussions and posts. It is good to summarize:
1. The Sutta Pitaka (and the Vinaya Pitaka) are entirely self-consistent.
- However, one must be able to interpret the meanings of certain Pali words depending on the context. For example, in many cases, phassa, vedana, sankhara, cetana refer to samphassa, “samphassa-ja-vedana”, abhisankhara, sancetana.
2. The Buddha explained the Abhidhamma framework in summary to Ven. Sariputta. The material in the Abhidhamma Pitaka was not taught to the general public during the Buddha’s time. It took over two hundred years of the combined effort of the bhikkus of Ven. Sariputta’s lineage to complete the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
- While most of the material in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is self-consistent and compatible with the Sutta Pitaka, there are contradictions in the “Paticcasamuppada Vibhanga” that I discussed above.
- In addition, one book in the Abhidhamma Pitaka seems to be missing (the one with analysis on hadaya vatthu and pasada rupa.) However, a Commentary on the Abhidhamma (translated into English by Bhikkhu Bodhi) has survived. Thus, we can “fill in gaps.”
3. In summary, we must always prefer the Sutta Pitaka (with the understanding that certain words must be interpreted based on the context, as I pointed out in #1 above.)
- While certain sections of the Abhidhamma Pitaka seem to have issues, it provides a good and self-consistent picture of Buddha Dhamma, starting with the fundamentals. Specific “knotty issues” in the Sutta Pitaka (including the issue with the correct interpretation of certain words pointed out in #1 above) can be easily resolved with Abhidhamma. The background of Abhidhamma is in “Abhidhamma – Introduction.”
- We are lucky to have enough material remaining intact to resolve any issues. We must remember that the Tipitaka was orally transmitted for about 500 years before it was written down. Even that material was slowly getting lost when English civil servants in Sri Lanka started collecting pieces of the Tipitaka scattered over numerous temples in Sri Lanka. We may have lost even more material if it wasn’t for their efforts. I have described these issues in the “Historical Background” section. It takes an effort to understand the historical background over 2500 years.
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The question is whether one needs to listen to Dhamma to attain the Sotapanna stage.
- I don’t see any evidence to conclude that.
I also used to believe that one MUST listen to Dhamma to attain the Sotapanna stage because one of the conditions is “saddhammassavanaṃ” or “listen to Dhamma.”
- However, learning by reading was not available at the time of the Buddha.
- So, the suttas do not even discuss whether one can become a Sotapanna by reading.
- Therefore, while people can debate this issue forever, we will not be able to settle it.
I believe that one must learn Dhamma in any way possible. All that matters is to dispel the ignorance that this world of 31 realms can provide a suffering-free existence.
- As one cultivates wisdom (paññā), the “mental bonds (samyojana)” that bind one to the rebirth process will be broken. That is how one attains not only the Sotapanna stage but also all other magga phala.
- See “Four Conditions for Attaining Sotāpanna Magga/Phala.”
- Also, the whole process takes place in the MIND. The way I now see it: It does not matter whether the knowledge comes from reading or listening (which are just two “doors” to the mind): “Mind Operates Like a Machine According to Nature’s Laws”
We can discuss the issue further if anyone can present evidence from the Tipitaka that one cannot become a Sotapanna by reading Dhamma. Knowledge dispels ignorance, and knowledge can come from both reading and listening.
- Also, Sangha in “Sangham saranam gacchami” refers to Noble Persons. A Noble Person can be a bhikkhu or a layperson. Not all bhikkhus belong to Sangha.
- There is a word for bhikkhus who also belong to Sangha. It is bhikkhusangha.
- P.S. For example, Devadatta was a bhikkhu. He cultivated all the anariya jhanas and had supernormal powers too. But he was reborn in an apaya. He did not belong to Sangha.
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Of course.
- Vatthu dasaka for a human is very different from that of an animal or a Deva, etc.
- A new vatthu dasaka is generated by kammic energy when a Deva dies and becomes a human, for example.
“I see, so at this stage, when a person thinks, is it ultimately the hadaya vatthu that consciously generates citta? “
- Yes. Cittas are always generated in hadaya vatthu.
” I would surmise that thinking involves retrieving info from memory which is also why a permanent like experience is felt.”
- Even a single citta takes into account of memories. That is how the mind recognizes a given person or an object.
- Each citta arises with seven universal cetasika (mental factors): Phassa (contact); vēdanā (feeling); saññā (perception); cētanā (volition); Ekaggata (One-pointedness); jivitindriya (life faculty); manasikāra. Recollection happens via a bit of a complex process (involving the brain) and recognition with saññā. See “Cetasika (Mental Factors).”
- The Buddha stated that the mind is the fastest entity in the world. All of the above (and more) happens within a citta lasting a billionth of a second. Of course, a single citta does not arise by itself. They usually come in packets of 17 cittas, called a “citta vithi.” When we focus on an object, billions of such “citta vithi” can run through a mind in minutes.
I have revised the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- Please don’t hesitate to ask questions. If anything is unclear, I can revise it as needed.
It is good to continue this discussion. I need to finish the following post that I have been postponing:
Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada – Acting With Alōbha, Adōsa, Amōha
1. I used another section of the “Paticcasamuppada Vibhanga” for that original post, where it is stated:
kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa; viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana, saḷāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā cittapasado, cittapasada paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkho paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jara, maranan, eva me tassa dhammanan samudhayo hoti.
On the other hand, the verse quoted by Zapper starts with:
Katame dhammā kusalā? Yasmiṁ samaye lokuttaraṁ jhānaṁ bhāveti niyyānikaṁ apacayagāmiṁ diṭṭhigatānaṁ pahānāya paṭhamāya bhūmiyā pattiyā vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati dukkhapaṭipadaṁ dandhābhiññaṁ, tasmiṁ samaye avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā pasādo, pasādapaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.
- Both end up with “dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.” That is one contradiction.
2. There are two other contradictions.
- In the first verse above “kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāra” is a contradiction. One cannot generate sankhara via kusala-mula.” Sankhara generation happens with akusala in mind.
- In the second verse above, it starts with Katame dhammā kusalā? and then to “tasmiṁ samaye avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro.” How can be kusala associated with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro“?
3. Finally, kusala means to avoid from akusala. There are no specific kusala kamma. See “Kusala Sutta (AN 10.180).” The confusion is to mix up puñña kamma with kusala kamma.
- Nibbana is reached via cultivating wisdom (paññā.) This is done by fully understanding the Paticca Samuppada process. As I just pointed out in the discussion, “Witness consciousness and Buddha nature,” that leads to breaking samyojana/anusaya.
Yes. That is a good point.
I should have written that as follows (see my comment on November 28, 2024, at 8:15 pm):
- Those cittas arise (in hadaya vatthu) due to causes and conditions in the “purana kamma” stage. (see #2 below).
- Then, in #2 below, I explained the “purana kamma” and “nava kamma” stages. Kamma accumulation in the “nava kamma” stage happens consciously. This is where we have control of our thoughts while we engage in kamma accumulation via body, speech, and mind (as indicated by kaya, vaci, mano kamma or dasa akusala); see the chart in #4 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- I will revise that post to include the above. It is an important point.
Once we abstain from dasa akusala, our minds become increasingly amenable to learning Dhamma. Then, we can understand the whole Paticca Samuppada process. The “automatic occurrence” of the “purana kamma” stage stops when our understanding (paññā) grows and the “mental bonds” of samyojana/anusaya break. See my earlier comment on November 28, 2024, at 9:55 am. There, I wrote:
“Let me list a few points to think about:
1. Step 8 is the critical one. As long as one has not removed certain samyojana/anusaya, that mind will automatically attach to the object if it is “an object of interest.” Conscious thinking is NOT involved.
- This is why it is so hard to resist “temptations” and lose “kama raga.”
- To remove that “automatic attachment,” one must fully understand the “true nature” (called “yathābhuta ñāṇa.”)..”
