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In his first comment on this thread, Jaro wrote:
“His example of the third case: a Pannādhika comes to anicca and dukkha through anattānupassanā. He contemplates the worthlessness and essencelessness of everything first, and anicca and dukkha follow from that.”
1. I started thinking about the possible connection between that statement and what I wrote at the end of last week’s post, “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.” In #17, I wrote the following.
- In ‘rūpaṁ attato samanupassati,‘ ‘attato‘ means ‘as real (atta)’ and ‘samanupassati’ (‘sama’ ‘anu’ ‘passati’, where ‘passati’ means ‘to see’). Thus, it means ‘to see/believe’ that any rūpa we experience is real, i.e., that they are the same as those in the external world.
- If we literally take ‘anatta‘ to mean that ‘the world presented to us by our own minds is a falsehood’, then the above quote from Jaro makes sense. As we know, ‘atta‘ has several meanings, and it is one of them (the truth).
- If one with wisdom (Pannādhika in Jaro’s quote) can see that about our sensory experience, then of course, anicca and dukkha are the natural outcomes!
2. So, why did the Buddha not present it that way in the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15)”? It clearly states the following.
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @marker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
3. It is quite possible that the reason is the following. With the confirmation by modern science (in recent years) that our sensory experiences do not reflect the actual reality of them (i.e., our sensory experiences are mirages), that is exactly what ‘anatta nature’ means.
- One meaning of ‘atta‘ is ‘the truth’. The opposite, or untruth, is ‘na atta‘ or ‘anatta‘.
- So, it is possible that even at the time of the Buddha, those with penetrating wisdom could see the ‘ anatta nature ‘ directly, without first seeing the anicca or dukkha.
- But, for the majority at that time, the ‘seeing process’ probably started with ‘seeing the anicca nature’ first.
4. Saurabh’s comment on AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta is good, too.
- Of course, in that sutta also anicca is mentioned before anatta.
- I need to think a bit more, but I think the point is to see the fruitlessness and dangers of attaching to sensory experiences; anyway, one can. I agree that it is fine to first see the ‘anatta nature’ (which has been facilitated by modern science). In fact, in retrospect, that is what I literally pointed to with the post “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.”
5. By the way, that ‘correct seeing’, or Samma Ditthi, is only the first step. Attaining Arahanthood means eliminating ditthi, tanha, and mana. See “Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi.” So, ‘seeing the anatta nature’ is a first step at the Sotapanna stage. It is fully established in the mind at the Arahant stage. See “Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59).” However, the first step of ‘seeing the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature’ of sensory experiences, or Samma Ditthi, happens at the Sotapanna stage.
- Then, one must follow the Noble Eightfold Path to eliminate tanha and asmi mana to attain the higher magga phala. Attaining the Sotapanna stage eliminates the three ditthi samyojana. Removing kama raga (and patigha) samyojana eliminates the first part of tanha at the Anagami stage. At the Arahant stage, complete elimination of tanha occurs with the removal of rupa raga and arupa raga samyojana. At the Arahant stage, ‘mana‘ (or ‘asmi mana samyojana‘) is also removed, along with uddacca and avijja samyojana.
6. In conclusion, Jaro’s comment at the beginning of the thread was excellent.
- So, the Tipitaka Commentary, in this case, seems to be valid. We should all further consider other related material in the Tipitaka to be certain.
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Hello Damithu,
A person can go through such stages. Of course, that stops once one attains the Sotapanna stage, after which there is no going back.
- You may want to think about what caused that reversal.
- It could be because you started associating with bad friends. I am just guessing, but that is a strong possibility. The Buddha taught that associating with bad friends and distancing yourself from good friends is a root cause of one’s problems. Your parents and school/Dhamma teachers fall into the latter category. The “Maṅgala Sutta (kp 5)” describing the factors that can lead to one’s progress/benefit starts with that instruction.
- Since you are back in school, focusing on your studies can also help you get back to your earlier mindset.
OK. I did not get to listen to all three. I listened to a part of Thilakuna Ep06. At the beginning of the desana, Thero mentioned that he extracted some concepts from the Tipitaka Commentaries. Also, I don’t know whether the translator translated Thero’s words correctly.
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Let us look at each one.
Thilakuna Ep06 (Anaththa, Deceptive view of the world): “The next most important thing is Anaththānupassanā. Now one has to see all three. To realize the stages of Enlightenment (Maga Pala), all three must be seen. All three are to be observed based on one. The one who is faithful with understanding and knowledge (Shraddādika) sees Dukkhānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Anichchānupassanā. The one who is effortful with understanding and knowledge (Viryādika) sees Anichchānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Dukkhānupassanā. The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā.”
- I believe that is incorrect, according to the suttas, as I pointed out above.
- P.S. In particular, the statement, “The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā” does not make sense with the order of understanding: anicca, dukkha, anatta. The sequence is clear from the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15).”
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @mrker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
“Now, will ‘SakkāyaDitti’ be abolished? Was it understood to that extent? There is a pertinent point. There is an important point for achieving ‘Sōthāpanna Pala’. It is necessary to be well versed in ‘SakkāyaDitti’.”
- This is correct.
Thilakuna Ep05 (Dukkha, Unheard trap of suffering): “The effortful person will stop the suffering from Sankhāra Dukkha (suffering of processing and construction), and attain Nibbāna through Dukkhānupassanā. We need to analyze and understand one by one. There is another person: the Pannādhika person (Wisdomful person). He will attain Nibbāna through Anaththānupassanā (contemplation based on Anaththa – worthlessness, essence-lessness).”
- This is also fine, since it says ‘attaining Nibbāna‘ and does not refer to a specific magga phala.
“As the Pannādhika individual (wisdomful individual) contemplates on Anaththānupassanā (contemplation according to worthlessness, essence-lessness), he also sees Anichcha and Dukkha based on Anaththānupassanā. That’s how it happens.”
- I do not agree, per my previous reasoning. Now, I don’t know whether the Thero said these things in the desana. I have seen this issue before. The person doing the captions in English may not be correctly translating Waharaka Thero’s words/meanings.
“In the end, when Anaththānupassanā … is understood, one important aspect should be understood. What is ‘Sakkāya Ditthi?’ … What does ‘Vichikichchā’ mean? … What is ‘Seelabbatha Parāmāsa?’ … Sōvānhood will be attained if these three are eradicated.”
- Correct. Of course, if one understood the anatta nature, one would have to be a Sotapanna who has already removed Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, etc.
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I think the other comments are OK, since the statements are vague. The following final one is not correct (again, it could be an issue with the translator):
“In whatever way if Anichcha was realized, Dukkha is also realized. Anaththa is also realized. If Dukkha was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Anaththa are also observed. If Anaththa was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Dukkha are also observed.”
- Understanding happens in the order of anicca, dukkha, anatta, per my Sutta references above. Of course, one may understand all three within a short time, like in the case of Ven. Bahiya.
I am open to discussing this further if the Sutta Pitaka provides evidence to contradict my statements. I no longer fully accept the explanations in the Commentaries (as I argued above), even though some are good and useful.
- I saw the same problem with the ‘Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada‘ that Waharaka Thero adopted from the Commentaries. See “Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It.”
- The bottom line is that we must always give priority to the Sutta Piṭaka.
P.S. I removed the following from my first comment above in this post, since it may cause confusion.
- Here is another set of confirming suttas on miccha dithi, sakkaya ditthi, and attanuditthi. Attanuditthi is eliminated at the Arahant stage, when avijja is eliminated from the mind: “Micchādiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.165)“, “Sakkāyadiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.166)“, and “Attānudiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.167)“. I have not discussed attanuditthi in a post. It is about eliminating ‘asmi mana‘ at the Arahant stage. The last three samyojana of asmi mana, uddhacca, and avijja are removed at the Arahant stage.
- I think it is better to discuss those three suttas in a separate post.
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Rewritten Post:
Imasmim Sati Idam Hoti – What Does It Really Mean?
Revised:
Chachakka Sutta – Six Types Of Vipāka Viññāna | Pure Dhamma This post has been renamed: “Chachakka Sutta – Six Types of Viññāna”OK. I will take a look at them after posting the weekly post, either today or tomorrow.
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Hello Jaro,
1. The sequence is clear from the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15).”
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @mrker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
2. Another point is mentioned in #13 of “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.” To quote from there:
- It is only with the complete cessation of avijjā (at the Arahant stage) that one fully comprehends that all sensory experiences are mind-made. That is when one fully comprehends the ‘anatta‘ nature.
- For example, the five ascetics attained the Sotapanna stage when the Buddha described the “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11)” in detail over several days. However, they attained the Arahant stage by listening to the Buddha’s explanation of ‘anatta nature’ in the “Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59).”
3. Can you post the links to those two desanas you mentioned? I can take a look.
- Or you can email me the links: [email protected]
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There are several suttas that state a Sotapanna is free of rebirths in the four lowest realms: niraya (hell), tiracchāna (animal), petti or peta (‘hungry ghost’), and vinipāta asura (I don’t try to translate it, but a common translation is ‘titans’). See, for example, “Paṭhamagiñjakāvasatha Sutta (SN 55.8).”
- Those four realms seem to correspond to lobha, dosa, and moha as follows: Dosa is the worst, leading to rebirths in a niraya. Lobha leads to rebirths in the petti or peta realms (they have subtle bodies too, and those two factors could be why they are called ‘hungry ghosts’). Moha leads to rebirths in the vinipāta asura realm. Finally, rebirths in the animal realm could be combinations of lobha, dosa, and moha.
- Rebirths happen according to the ‘gati‘ cultivated. Thus, that explanation somewhat matches the description in the “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68).” For some reason, ‘vinipāta asura gati‘ is missing in this sutta.
Even though I have not seen the word ‘khuppipāsābhūta‘ in the Tipitaka, ‘khuppipāsa‘ does mean ‘hunger and thirst’. See “Cūḷadukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN 14).”
In reading those paragraphs, one needs to be aware of the following facts:
1. ‘Suffering’ refers to the ‘suffering in the rebirth process’, not necessarily the suffering experienced in this life.
2. A Sotapanna has eliminated 99+% of the suffering to be experienced by a puthujjana in the future, in the rebirth process. It does not refer to the suffering in the current life.
- For example, a drug dealer may live a luxurious life in this life. He may even avoid getting caught and live luxuriously until his death. A Sotapanna may be poor and still go through many hardships in this life. However, that Sotapanna is guaranteed not to be reborn in an apaya, or a lower realm. Furthermore, the Sotapanna has only a limited time left in the rebirth process, and all of those are in the human or higher realms that are relatively free of suffering. In contrast, the drug dealer could be reborn in an apaya due to him ruining so many lives with drugs, and could spend a very long time in an apaya (in the animal realm or a worse realm), just due to selling drugs. Furthermore, he could be trapped in the rebirth for many billions of years.
3. Therefore, my comments in those quoted statements should be considered in that context.
- Any Noble Person would have a relatively insignificant amount of suffering left in the rebirth process compared to a puthujjana.
- The Buddha gave the following analogy: The suffering left to be experienced by a Sotapanna, compared to a puthujjana, is like a bit of dirt that can be picked up by a finger compared to the soil in this whole Earth!
- See #8 of “Murderer to a Sotapanna in an Hour – How Is That Possible?“
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Julian wrote: “If there is an infinite amount of minds with human gati,”
1. Did I say that in that post? I don’t think so.
- The Buddha taught that there are an infinite number of living beings in the universe.
- Think about it this way. Life on Earth is sustained by the Sun’s energy, and the Sun is a star. The Buddha calls this a ‘cakkavāla‘.
- Each star in the universe can potentially sustain life on a planet orbiting it. There are trillions of stars in our galaxy, which is one of billions of galaxies in the universe. Thus, there can be trillions of ‘cakkavāla‘ like ours (with life) in the universe.
- What I described in the above bullet was confirmed by science only within the past 100 years or so. But they still haven’t found life outside our solar system. They actually don’t know much about even the closest ‘cakkavāla‘ (i.e., the closest star), which is around four light-years away; a light-year is the distance light travels in a year at a rate of 360,000 km per second. That is an unimaginable distance! How can they ever find life in a planet that far away?
- I just wanted to point out that there could be an infinite number of living beings in the universe. However, this is not a subject we should focus on. This is one topic that the Buddha said we should not investigate, because there would be no end to such investigations.
2. Cosmology (investigating the universe) is one of the things that the Buddha declared “unthinkable (acinteyya)” for an average human; see “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)“:
“There are these four things that one should not conjecture about and would bring anxiety and madness to anyone who speculates. Which four? (i) capabilities of a Buddha, (ii) subject of jhānā, (iii) detailed knowledge of kamma vipāka, and (iv) origins of the world.
- One can spend a lifetime studying the details of those subjects and get nowhere.
- The Buddha advised us to focus on ‘ending suffering in the rebirth process.’ That is not easy either. If we get immersed in those other four subjects, we will be wasting our valuable time.
Thank you! I was just curious what it was.
- It is up to you. But “Sādhu! Sādhu! Sādhu!” or even without that seems OK to me.
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I am glad you understood.
- By the way, what do you mean by “O Vāsava!” at the end of your posts?
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What you experienced is similar to what those who practice breath ‘meditation’ experience.
- Real meditation means contemplation (of Dhamma concepts that lead to a permanent solution to suffering in the rebirth process), not just focusing the mind on an inert object like the breath.
- It is a misnomer to call focusing the mind on the breath (or any kasina object, like a fire or a bowl of water) ‘meditation’. There is nothing to do but focus the mind on an inert object. How can that stop the arising of immoral thoughts when one is engaged in normal day-to-day activities?
- Of course, focusing the mind on an inert object temporarily stops the mind from generating greedy, angry, or ignorant thoughts. That can even lead to anariya jhanic experiences, which are also useless.
- See “Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run.”
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Rewritten Post:
“Attato Samanupassati” and Sotapanna Stage
Revised:
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I am glad that you asked about the ‘kama loka.’ Those of us who are familiar with Buddha’s teachings and with the Pali language take such words for granted. So, let me explain what it means.
1. The Buddha explained a ‘wider world’ with 31 realms of existence. We can ‘see’ only two of those: the human realm and the animal realm.
- It makes it easier to understand the rebirth process when one is aware of the 31 realms. One does not necessarily need to believe in 31 realms until one understands how it fits with the details of kamma, kamma vipaka, Paticca Samuppada, etc. It is a comprehensive description of the world. The Pali word for ‘world’ is ‘loka.’
3. Those 31 realms are in three main sub-loka: kama loka, rupa loka, and arupa loka.
- Those living beings in ‘kama loka‘ have six senses in general: eyes, ears, tongue, nose, physical body with skin that can feel touch, and the mind. There are 11 realms in ‘kama loka.’ The four lowest realms (‘apāyās‘), where there is much suffering, are animal, peta (hungry ghosts), niraya, and asura. It also has six Deva realms, where Devās with subtle bodies live with much less suffering than even the human realm. The human realm is below those Deva realms and has mixed levels of suffering. Don’t worry about those other 9 realms in kama loka (other than the human and animal realms) the beginning.
- The ‘rupa loka‘ is better than the ‘kama loka‘ in the sense that ‘suffering is less.’ There are sixteen Brahma realms in rupa loka. They don’t even have subtle physical bodies like the Devās in kama loka. Thus, they don’t experience taste, smell, or touch. We cannot see Brahmās or even Devās even if they come near us, because of their ‘subtle, fine bodies.’ However, Rupa Loka Brahmās can see, hear, and think without having a physical body or a brain. They only have a microscopic body.
- The Arupa Loka Brahmās live in four realms. They have only a mind and can only think.
- It is enough to get that general idea without getting into details in the beginning.
2. A main point is that the mind is in a ‘dormant state’ until sensory input comes in. That state is called the ‘natural bhavanga state.’ Here, one is not experiencing any ‘thoughts.’ For example, when we are in deep sleep, our minds are in that state.
- Our thoughts start coming in when we wake up in the morning. If one awoke to an alarm sound, that sensory input was the alarm sound. When we drink coffee, the ‘taste sensory faculty’ starts, and so on.
- The Buddha explained that the mind is the fastest entity in the world. It can process sensory inputs coming through all five ‘physical senses’ very quickly. That is why we feel that we can see, hear, and taste popcorn simultaneously while we watch a movie.
3. Another important point is the following. Any mind starts at a ‘dhātu‘ stage. That state is an undefiled mind with only seven ‘mental factors’ or ‘cetasika‘. Think of ‘cetasika‘ as components of the mind. Any mind starts with those seven ‘universal cetasika ‘. One of those seven is saññā (perception). See “Cetasika (Mental Factors).”
- Depending on the specific realm, that dhātu stage comes with a ‘distorted saññā ‘. For example, when we taste food, the mind starts with those seven cetasika, but the saññā is ‘rasa saññā’. The mind adds that perception of ‘rasa‘ or ‘taste.’ That ‘taste’ is not a defilement because a defilement must have rāga, dosa, or moha/avijjā.
- However, that perception of rasa, or taste, will trigger avijjā in the mind of anyone who does not understand how the mind works this way.
- Then that ‘taste’ can trigger other mental factors, like lobha (greed), to appear in the mind. That is the very basic way a mind starts to become contaminated or defiled.
4. As you can see, since the Brahmās in rupa or arupa loka cannot taste, smell, or touch, there are fewer ways their minds can be contaminated.
- In other words, there are fewer types of ‘sensory attractions’ in the higher realms. That is why there is less suffering in them.
5. I will try to write a post expanding on those ideas/concepts. But I hope the above could be helpful.
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Thank you for sharing your experience and insights.
You wrote:
“I will watch my thoughts, as they become my words.
I will watch my words, as they become my deeds.
I will watch my deeds, as they become my habits.
I will watch my habits, as they become my character.
I will watch my character, as it becomes my destination by strengthening the fetters.That is how I will train.”
That is an excellent plan. Maybe the last one should be revised as “I will watch my character, as it becomes my destination by weakening the fetters (anusaya/samyojana that give rise to a defiled mind).”
The following could be helpful:
The mind of any average person (puthujjana) in our human world (in ‘kama loka‘) works in a three-stage process when it receives sensory input.
1. Upon receiving sensory input, the mind moves to the ‘kama loka‘ based only on the fact that it still has the ‘kama raga anusaya‘ (same as ‘kama raga samyojana‘) intact. They represent the samsaric (or sansaric) bond to the ‘kama loka.’ This stops only after one attains the Anagami stage of Nibbana.
- With this step, the mind moves to the ‘purana kamma‘ stage.
- Here, ‘purana kamma‘ means ‘initial kamma‘ accumulation. The very early and weak kamma accumulation is with ‘sankappa‘ which are a weak form of sankhara.
2. The next level of ‘kamma accumulation’ (still in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage) depends on the specific sensory input and also on one’s gati (character/habits) at that moment. One’s gati can change even from moment to moment. For example, when one consumes alcohol or drugs, one’s character will change.
- Based on the specific sensory input and one’s gati at that moment, one’s mind begins to accumulate slightly stronger kamma.
- That second stage of kamma accumulation (still in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage) is with ‘sara sankappa‘, a slightly stronger form of sankhara.
Kamma accumulation in stages 1 and 2 happens within a fraction of a second, and we are not even aware of it. Only a Buddha can discover that extremely fast process.
3. If the mind firmly attaches to that sensory input, it reaches the ‘tanha paccaya upadana‘ step in Paticca Samuppada. This is stage 3. With that, the mind enters the ‘nava kamma‘ stage.
- A Paticca Samuppada process starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara‘ and goes through several steps before reaching that ‘tanha paccaya upadana‘ step. It should be clear that those steps happen in the #1 and #2 stages (while in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage) discussed above.
- Stage 3 is where we consciously accumulate strong kamma through body, speech, and mind; these are kaya, vaci, and mano kamma, and the strongest sankhara are generated here.
- Once we become aware of kamma accumulation in this stage, we can wilfully control it. This is the ‘nava kamma‘ (or ‘new kamma‘) accumulation stage where strong kammic energies that can bring vipaka into even future lives are generated.
All sensory inputs force the mind into the ‘purana kamma‘ stage; this is triggered by one of several types of ‘kama saññā’, and it is a deeper aspect to study. Only some of them will proceed to the ‘nava kamma‘ stage, based on the strength of the ‘attachment.’
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That provides a basic outline.
- As we can see, we do not have direct control over the first two sub-stages within the ‘purana kamma‘ stage. However, the Buddha taught how we can do that by fully understanding the details of those two early sub-stages in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage.
- First, we try our best to cultivate ‘good gati‘ and abstain from ‘bad gati.’ See “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Āsavas)“ and “Habits, Goals, and Character (Gati)“
- To stop the very first stage in #1 above, the ‘kama raga anusaya‘ (same as ‘kama raga samyojana‘) can only be eliminated at the Anagami stage of Nibbana.
- Before that, one must attain the Sotapanna stage by studying the Buddha’s teachings more deeply and cultivating wisdom (paññā).
So, it is a good idea to read those two posts above. More related posts are in “Moral Living and Fundamentals.”
- Also, it is a good idea to start learning Paticca Samuppada. Those last steps mentioned above for attaining the Sotapanna and Anagami stages depend on that.
- See “Paṭicca Samuppāda.” Some posts there need revision. But the ones listed at the top are likely recent or recently revised.
One main point is that we can get considerable relief by changing our gati (pronounced ‘gathi’).
- However, the only permanent solution is to attain the Sotapanna stage. Once that is attained, the subsequent steps (including the Anagami stage) can be attained without the help of others.
Your comments indicate your determination to make progress. Be patient and start learning systematically. I hope the overview above helps in some way.
P.S. By the way, don’t worry about the popping up of <br> in the text. Those are hard to edit out, but I can do that easily.
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