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Exactly!
- ‘‘Kāma saññā‘ in the current life arises NOT via Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) running in this life. Any human is born with ‘built-in kāma saññā.‘ Since Arahants were born human, they were born with the ‘kāma saññā,‘ and that DOES NOT disappear upon attaining Arahanthood. They are still living with that human body.
- Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) operating in this life leads to ‘corresponding births’ (“paṭi+ichcha” leads to “sama+uppāda” ) in future lives with the corresponding (distorted) saññā. For example, most humans will be reborn in ‘kāma loka‘ with the ‘kāma saññā.‘ Those few who cultivate jhāna will be reborn in the ‘rupa loka‘ as a Brahma with a ‘jhānic saññā.’
- But the problem for those who value kāma saññā is that they may engage in dasa akualsa and are likely to be reborn as an animal or worse, i.e., in an apāya. See “Kusala/Akusala and Puñña/Apuñña Kamma.”
Tobias wrote: “The Arahant does not operate on PS anymore. Thus, color perception can not be generated by PS.”
- The generation of ‘color perception’ for an Arahant happens because the Arahant was born with a mental and physical body generated via PS.
- Anyone born a human is born with the ‘kāma saññā‘ built into them.
- The stopping of ‘attachment to color perception’ for an Arahant happens because PS no longer operates for the Arahant.
- I have bolded the incorrect part of your comment. Think about that critical point.
P.S. Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) process works in two ways: (i) It explains how we generate kamma (kammic energy). (ii) It also explains how future existences arise based on kammic energies we have accumulated; “paṭi+ichcha” leads to “sama+uppāda,” i.e., “willingly attaching to the root causes” leads to “corresponding (re)births.”
- Because we have craved ‘sensual pleasures’ (‘kāma assāda’) and generated kammic energy to sustain such an existence, we are born with mental and physical bodies to generate the ‘kāma saññā.‘ That is how the Arahant was born with the built-in ‘kāma saññā.‘ That ‘kāma saññā‘ will be there as long as the Arahant lives in this world, i.e., until their death.
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Regarding my statement, “Now, you may have to think through this in detail. It would be impossible to live in a colorless world, let alone being able to enjoy it. It would be as if we didn’t have eyes. This is why the Buddha called ‘saññā‘ a mirage,” Saurabh@2110 wrote: “So to live in such world seems impossible to me.”
- Yes. Life cannot be sustained in such a world. Without even black and white, there would be nothing to see.
- That is why Paticca Samuppada creates a ‘colorful world’ for those who crave such a world. The world is created by ‘mental energy’ (same as kammic energy). The only way mental energy can make a ‘colorful world’ is by saññā built into our ‘mental bodies’ or ‘manomaya kaya.’
- Mental energy cannot make ‘colored objects’; only ‘colorless suddhāṭṭhaka’ can be created by kammic energy. It can only generate a saññā (perception) of color. That holds for other entities of taste, smell, etc.
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Regarding my statement, “The world of 31 realms and the living beings in them, in ultimate reality, can be described by only rūpa, citta, and cetasika. When an Arahant separates from the ‘world of 31 realms,’ Nibbana is the result. “Things” in the world of 31 realms are described by rupa, which do not possess colors, tastes, etc. The ‘living beings’ have rūpa, citta, cetasika,” Saurabh@2110 wrote: “So for the arahant it is just rupa, Citta and cetasikas and no individual concrete beings around…So nibbana is the result for only arahats after separating from 31 realms right? …”
- A living Arahant can see just like anyone else, because they are also born with the ‘distorted saññā.‘
- The difference between an Arahant and a puthujjana is in the cetasika generated. Arahant‘s mind would not generate immoral cetasika (raga, dosa, moha) in response to any sensory event. They only experience the sensory inputs without attaching to them: “‘Diṭṭhe Diṭṭhamattaṁ Bhavissati’ – Connection to Saññā .”
- Even though an Arahant would still generate (pure, undefiled) citta, they have already attained Nibbana, which is defined as “rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo—idaṁ vuccati nibbānan” ti OR “the ending of rāga, ending of anger/hate, and ending of ignorance/delusion is Nibbāna.” See, for example, “Nibbānapañhā Sutta (SN 38.1).”
- Until the death of the physical body (which is a vipaka), an Arahant would experience the ‘colorful world’ just as anyone else.
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Yes. When I first realized this a few years ago, I was awestruck.
- This is the key message the Buddha sought to convey. In those days, one had to first take his word based on faith.
- But now we have another confirmation via modern science. Colors, tastes, etc., are not real; they are mind-made perceptions, and that is why the Buddha called ‘saññā‘ a mirage.
Without realizing this, all living beings attach to those /mind-made pleasures and engage in akusala kamma.
- That leads to rebirths in the apayas, where most rebirths are. That is the root cuase of suffering!
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The following quote is from the post “Cuti and Marana – Related to Bhava and Jāti.”
8. The series of specific suttas start with the “Manussacutiniraya Sutta (SN 56. 102)” which says, “..those who die as humans (not the physical death, but cuti) and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as humans and are reborn in hell are many ….”
- Then the following suttas say that those who die as humans and are reborn in the animal and hungry ghost realms are many: “Manussacutitiracchāna Sutta (SN 56. 103),” and “Manussacutipettivisaya Sutta (SN 56. 104).“
- The “Manussacutidevanirayādi Sutta (SN 56. 105)” says those who die as humans and are reborn in Deva realms are few, but born in niraya are many. Then the “Devacutinirayādi Sutta (SN 56. 106)” states, “who die as Devās and are reborn as Devās are few, while those who die as Devās and are reborn in hell, animal realm, or the hungry-ghost realm are many.”
- Note that “Manussacutiniraya Sutta” is “Manussa cuti niraya Sutta” and indicates a human grasping a niraya bhava at the cuti moment. The other suttas have similar names.
- Many such combinations are shown in the rest of the series. It is a good idea to click through the rest of the suttas.
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I think both of you are ‘overthinking’ the issue. Let me give the crude, direct answer that I have been trying to avoid because I was not sure whether it could psychologically affect some people.
- Suppose our world is as follows: Nothing has colors, not even black and white, because those are also colors. Foods don’t have taste, not even salty taste; absolutely no taste. No ‘pleasing music.’ No smells. No sexual enjoyment (that is also a saññā).
- For those who enjoy jhāna/samāpatti, there will be no ‘jhānic/samāpatti pleasure.’ That is also a saññā.’
Now, you may have to think through this in detail. It would be impossible to live in a colorless world, let alone being able to enjoy it. It would be as if we didn’t have eyes. This is why the Buddha called ‘saññā‘ a mirage.
- Again, science has confirmed that nothing in this world has color, and Sunlight is colorless as well. See “The Illusion of Perception (Saññā) – It Is Scientific Consensus.”
- As discussed there, scientists have also confirmed that other sensory inputs do not have the corresponding attributes of taste, smell, etc.
That is the ‘ultimate truth’ or ‘paramattha sacca.’ It can also be called ‘ultimate reality’ or ‘paramattha dhamma.’
- The ‘experienced reality’ of a world with colors, smells, tastes, etc., is generated in the mind (in the brain, according to scientists).
- I guess scientists do not consider this an issue to worry about, because they do not believe in rebirth. They say that the perception (saññā) of color, taste, etc., gradually evolved over time. According to them, life started with inert molecules forming more complex versions, and perception and other ‘mental entities’ (such as feelings of joy and sorrow) emerged over time!
- Of course, they are unable to explain how that happens, i.e., how a bunch of complex molecules can give rise to feelings, perception, and consciousness. This is called the ‘hard problem of consciousness.’
- Most people are not even aware of this astonishing fact. The general public believes that colors are either in objects or in sunlight.
- When I read books or publications on the ‘hard problem of consciousness,’ no one seems to be bothered about it. They are only bothered by the inability to explain how it occurs via evolution.
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Lang wrote: “I have always understood ‘paramattha sacca‘ to mean the 4 “ultimate realities”: rūpa, citta, cetasika, nibbāna.”
- That is also correct. The world of 31 realms and the living beings in them, in ultimate reality, can be described by only rūpa, citta, and cetasika. When an Arahant separates from the ‘world of 31 realms,’ Nibbana is the result.
- “Things” in the world of 31 realms are described by rupa, which do not possess colors, tastes, etc. The ‘living beings’ have rūpa, citta, cetasika.
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I just revised the post “Overcoming Kāma Saññā – Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi or Jhāna” to clarify a few points and to make the distinction between Ariya and anariya jhāna clearer.
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Developing sati/mindfulness means having the mindfulness (sati) present in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi.
- The above is a critical point that most people do not understand.
- The critical feature of the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi is that it is devoid of the ‘kāma saññā.’
- As long as kāma saññā can arise, it is impossible to prevent the mind from getting to the ‘purāna kamma’ stage to automatically generate vitakka/vicara (thoughts with kāma sankappa).
- See “Sandiṭṭhiko – What Does It Mean?” and “Overcoming Kāma Saññā – Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi or Jhāna.”
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Saurabh@2110 wrote: “I also think jhanas are necessary till some time only just as sir lal said that one should not forcefully try to avoid sensual pleasures which might even lead to depression! I think same goes for jhanas as well but this maybe applies to anariya jhanas only and not to ariya jhanas which are the domain of anagamis/arahat I think.”
- Attaining an anariya jhana will not guarantee attaining a magga phala.
- One must either attain an Ariya jhana or enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi to attain a magga phala. Both require comprehension of the Noble Truths, Paṭicca Samuppāda, and Tilakkhana (all are equivalent).
- Most people attain magga phala without going through Ariya jhana by entering the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi.
- Of course, one with the ability to get into anariya jhana can attain magga phala by comprehending the Noble Truths.
- This is discussed in “Overcoming Kāma Saññā – Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi or Jhāna.”
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“..does that mean that we are kind of living in virtual reality like as in game..”
- Yes. That is the ultimate truth (‘paramattha sacca‘ where ‘sacca’ is pronounced ‘sachcha’). Modern science has confirmed that external objects do not have colors (sunlight does not have colors either). The same is true for other ‘sensory pleasures’ too.
- However, one must be careful not to try to give ‘sensual pleasures’ with willpower, as I emphasized above.
- Even a Sotapanna (who has ‘seen the truth of the ‘paramattha sacca‘) will not be able to give up the craving for sensual pleasures until attaining the Anāgāmi stage.
- We have all been ‘immersed in’ sensual pleasures for so long in this rebirth process that it is not easy for many to even consider the fact that ‘paramattha sacca‘ could be true!
So, your description is correct. Keep reading posts related to this issue with an open mind; the concepts will become clear, and at some point, mind will accept them. It cannot be forced.
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Yes. The concept of a gandhabba (mental body) is necessary for at least two reasons:
1. Some babies die within a few months, and some even die in the womb within a few days of conception. If the ‘human existence’ is limited to the ‘birth with a physical body,’ does the ‘human existence’ end after such a short time for them?
2. In rebirth accounts, there is always a gap of several years (sometimes hundreds of years; see “Rebirth Account of Dorothy Eady“) between consecutive rebirths. See “Evidence for Rebirth.” What happens to the ‘person’ in between two consecutive lives with physical bodies?
- Without the concept of a gandhabba (mental body), it is not possible to explain the above observations.
3. Even while living inside a physical body, the gandhabba (mental body) can ‘pop out’ in some situations, especially during heart operations or close to the death of the physical body. See “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind.”
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4. The following is an excerpt from another post: “Distorted Saññā Arises in Every Adult but Not in a Newborn.”
“2. A big “mental block” exists in many people’s minds to view the gandhabba as an alien entity. You are your “mental body,” and the physical body is secondary. Your thoughts (cittās) arise in your mental body. Once outside the physical body, the mental body can see, hear, and think independently; of course, it cannot taste, smell, or touch.
- It has been ingrained in our minds (primarily via modern science) that our physical body (or the brain) creates thoughts. But the physical body is just a “shell” that becomes useless once the mental body (gandhabba) emerges from it.
- As we have discussed, a human bhava (existence) may last many thousands of years. It is that “mental body” that lasts through that whole time.
- Your essence is not your physical body or the brain but your mental body (gandhabba). However, the physical body and the brain play significant roles while the mental body is inside the physical body.
Mutual Interactions Between Mental Body and Physical Body
3. The issue is understanding how the gandhabba (mental body) trapped inside the physical body receives sensory inputs from the external world. That must be understood before understanding how gandhabba recognizes things in the external world (saññā).
So, the first step is: How does the gandhabba receive information about the external world? How does it see someone standing in front of the physical body?
Facts:
- Gandbabba consists of only a hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) and five pasada rupa (cakkhu, sota, ghāna, jivhā, kāya.)
- If the gandhabba is outside the physical body (as in an out-of-body experience, such as an OBE/NDE), it can see and hear by itself; see the chart in #5 below. Here, seeing and hearing happen via mechanisms we don’t understand.
- However, when the gandhabba is within the physical body, it is completely shielded from the external world; the body must function effectively to transmit sensory signals to the gandhabba. Take vision first. To see something, the physical eyes must work. That light signal must be transmitted to the brain via the optic nerves and processed there. The brain MUST pass that information to the gandhabba (by a mechanism we don’t fully understand).
- Sometimes, during accidents or due to other medical reasons, one of those three components (physical eyes, optical nerves, or brain function) may permanently or temporarily stop.
- If the brain function stops (temporarily), the patient cannot see, hear, or respond in any way.
4. That is what happened to the woman in the following video. She temporarily lost brain function.
Notes:
- In most cases, the patient is unaware of the external world until the brain recovers. However, in the above case, the patient’s gandhabba came out of her body and enabled her to see without the aid of her physical body.
- The woman’s gandhabba may have come out of the paralyzed body at some point. It was in the room when Dr. Greyson came and followed him to the other room, where her friend was. The gandhabba was watching and listening to the conversation between her friend and Dr. Greyson.
- Once medical treatment restored her brain function, she could recall the conversation and tell Dr. Greyson about it in great detail. She not only heard but also saw the full details. That is why she noticed the stain on Dr. Greyson’s tie!
- So, she was able to see with her gandhabba body. Can there be any doubts about that?
- The gandhabba coming out of the physical body is not a common occurrence. However, he mentioned (perhaps in another video) that approximately 10% of people have experienced such an OBE. It is more common when patients undergo heart operations because the hadaya vatthu in the mental body overlaps the heart in the physical body.”
Another “misleading saññā” related to my comment above on January 9, 2026, at 7:18 am is the ‘seemingly solidity of matter, ‘ as when one feels hitting a tabletop.
- The atoms in the table are mostly empty space. See “Saññā Vipallāsa – Distorted Perception.”
- The following video from the physicist Richard Feynman explains this well.
Yes. You are correct that pañca nīvaraṇa are NOT removed at the Sotapanna stage. Thank you!
- I have revised that post.
I am glad to see that HugoZyl is seriously contemplating this critical point.
HugoZyl asked: “The question is what did the most holy Buddha mean when He referred to sense pleasures as ‘a pit of burning coals’?”
- No, it is not #1. It is actually the truth.
- All other points #2 through #4 hold.
However, just saying “sense pleasures as ‘a pit of burning coals’” and trying to avoid sensual pleasures is not going to work. In fact, forcefully avoiding sensual pleasures will generate dosa and paṭigha and may even lead to depression.
- One must ‘see with wisdom’ the truth of the statement.
The following are only a few suttās where the Buddha made that statement: “Dukkhadhamma Sutta (SN 35.244),” “Khīṇāsavabala Sutta (AN 10.90),” “Alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22),” “Dasuttara Sutta (DN 34).”
- This point must be carefully investigated and understood.
- Yes. Understanding that colors are not in external objects (or in sunlight) is a starting point. That is explained in the post “Colors Are Mind-Made (Due to Kāma Saññā).”
I will gradually address the issue of saññā as a mirage in the new series of posts in the “Buddha Dhamma” section. It is good to review the basics of Buddha’s teachings and gradually move on to advanced topics. Without the basics, it could be a struggle.
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