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I am glad to hear your account. I am further impressed by the fact that you seem to be a young person.
- May the Blessings of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha be with you always!
New:
Rūpa Samudaya – A ‘Colorful World’ Is Created by the Mind
Revised:
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Of course, you did not break any rules. Thank you for the reference.
- Let me provide the Pali version of the sutta Saurabh@2110 provided, and the SuttaCentral translation side-by-side:
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I don’t think the dreams described in “Maha Buddhavamsa – The great chronicle of buddhas” are in the Tipitaka.
- If anyone can provide such a reference in the Tipitaka, that will be appreciated.
It is natural to dream about things that you are thinking about.
- Some dreams may have meanings, according to some Commentaries (not the Tipitaka itself).
- For example, it says that Mahamaya Devi (mother of Siddharta Gotama) dreamt about a little elephant entering her womb the day she conceived the prince.
- However, I don’t think it is worth the time to think about dreams.
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“Sir my understanding was that, jhanas are there to make the process of attaining magga-phala smoother.”
- Yes, if one can attain even an anriya jhāna, that can help. That means they are to overcome the ‘kāma saññā‘ on a superficial level.
- However, attaining any jhāna is not a necessary condition to attain a magga phala, as I explain in that post.
- People have baseless ideas about jhāna.
“Last question sir, once one becomes devoid of kama sanna, even if it is for a moment, for him, does satipatthana bhumi become accessible here and now for that moment?”
- Yes. For example, a Sotapanna who temporarily overcomes the ‘kāma saññā‘ to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi will be without the ‘kāma saññā‘ as long as they remain there. Once they finish the ‘Satipaṭṭhāna session,’ they get back the ‘kāma saññā’ unless they attain the Anāgāmi stage while there.
Exactly!
- ‘‘Kāma saññā‘ in the current life arises NOT via Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) running in this life. Any human is born with ‘built-in kāma saññā.‘ Since Arahants were born human, they were born with the ‘kāma saññā,‘ and that DOES NOT disappear upon attaining Arahanthood. They are still living with that human body.
- Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) operating in this life leads to ‘corresponding births’ (“paṭi+ichcha” leads to “sama+uppāda” ) in future lives with the corresponding (distorted) saññā. For example, most humans will be reborn in ‘kāma loka‘ with the ‘kāma saññā.‘ Those few who cultivate jhāna will be reborn in the ‘rupa loka‘ as a Brahma with a ‘jhānic saññā.’
- But the problem for those who value kāma saññā is that they may engage in dasa akualsa and are likely to be reborn as an animal or worse, i.e., in an apāya. See “Kusala/Akusala and Puñña/Apuñña Kamma.”
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Tobias wrote: “The Arahant does not operate on PS anymore. Thus, color perception can not be generated by PS.”
- The generation of ‘color perception’ for an Arahant happens because the Arahant was born with a mental and physical body generated via PS.
- Anyone born a human is born with the ‘kāma saññā‘ built into them.
- The stopping of ‘attachment to color perception’ for an Arahant happens because PS no longer operates for the Arahant.
- I have bolded the incorrect part of your comment. Think about that critical point.
P.S. Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) process works in two ways: (i) It explains how we generate kamma (kammic energy). (ii) It also explains how future existences arise based on kammic energies we have accumulated; “paṭi+ichcha” leads to “sama+uppāda,” i.e., “willingly attaching to the root causes” leads to “corresponding (re)births.”
- Because we have craved ‘sensual pleasures’ (‘kāma assāda’) and generated kammic energy to sustain such an existence, we are born with mental and physical bodies to generate the ‘kāma saññā.‘ That is how the Arahant was born with the built-in ‘kāma saññā.‘ That ‘kāma saññā‘ will be there as long as the Arahant lives in this world, i.e., until their death.
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Regarding my statement, “Now, you may have to think through this in detail. It would be impossible to live in a colorless world, let alone being able to enjoy it. It would be as if we didn’t have eyes. This is why the Buddha called ‘saññā‘ a mirage,” Saurabh@2110 wrote: “So to live in such world seems impossible to me.”
- Yes. Life cannot be sustained in such a world. Without even black and white, there would be nothing to see.
- That is why Paticca Samuppada creates a ‘colorful world’ for those who crave such a world. The world is created by ‘mental energy’ (same as kammic energy). The only way mental energy can make a ‘colorful world’ is by saññā built into our ‘mental bodies’ or ‘manomaya kaya.’
- Mental energy cannot make ‘colored objects’; only ‘colorless suddhāṭṭhaka’ can be created by kammic energy. It can only generate a saññā (perception) of color. That holds for other entities of taste, smell, etc.
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Regarding my statement, “The world of 31 realms and the living beings in them, in ultimate reality, can be described by only rūpa, citta, and cetasika. When an Arahant separates from the ‘world of 31 realms,’ Nibbana is the result. “Things” in the world of 31 realms are described by rupa, which do not possess colors, tastes, etc. The ‘living beings’ have rūpa, citta, cetasika,” Saurabh@2110 wrote: “So for the arahant it is just rupa, Citta and cetasikas and no individual concrete beings around…So nibbana is the result for only arahats after separating from 31 realms right? …”
- A living Arahant can see just like anyone else, because they are also born with the ‘distorted saññā.‘
- The difference between an Arahant and a puthujjana is in the cetasika generated. Arahant‘s mind would not generate immoral cetasika (raga, dosa, moha) in response to any sensory event. They only experience the sensory inputs without attaching to them: “‘Diṭṭhe Diṭṭhamattaṁ Bhavissati’ – Connection to Saññā .”
- Even though an Arahant would still generate (pure, undefiled) citta, they have already attained Nibbana, which is defined as “rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo—idaṁ vuccati nibbānan” ti OR “the ending of rāga, ending of anger/hate, and ending of ignorance/delusion is Nibbāna.” See, for example, “Nibbānapañhā Sutta (SN 38.1).”
- Until the death of the physical body (which is a vipaka), an Arahant would experience the ‘colorful world’ just as anyone else.
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Yes. When I first realized this a few years ago, I was awestruck.
- This is the key message the Buddha sought to convey. In those days, one had to first take his word based on faith.
- But now we have another confirmation via modern science. Colors, tastes, etc., are not real; they are mind-made perceptions, and that is why the Buddha called ‘saññā‘ a mirage.
Without realizing this, all living beings attach to those /mind-made pleasures and engage in akusala kamma.
- That leads to rebirths in the apayas, where most rebirths are. That is the root cuase of suffering!
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The following quote is from the post “Cuti and Marana – Related to Bhava and Jāti.”
8. The series of specific suttas start with the “Manussacutiniraya Sutta (SN 56. 102)” which says, “..those who die as humans (not the physical death, but cuti) and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as humans and are reborn in hell are many ….”
- Then the following suttas say that those who die as humans and are reborn in the animal and hungry ghost realms are many: “Manussacutitiracchāna Sutta (SN 56. 103),” and “Manussacutipettivisaya Sutta (SN 56. 104).“
- The “Manussacutidevanirayādi Sutta (SN 56. 105)” says those who die as humans and are reborn in Deva realms are few, but born in niraya are many. Then the “Devacutinirayādi Sutta (SN 56. 106)” states, “who die as Devās and are reborn as Devās are few, while those who die as Devās and are reborn in hell, animal realm, or the hungry-ghost realm are many.”
- Note that “Manussacutiniraya Sutta” is “Manussa cuti niraya Sutta” and indicates a human grasping a niraya bhava at the cuti moment. The other suttas have similar names.
- Many such combinations are shown in the rest of the series. It is a good idea to click through the rest of the suttas.
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I think both of you are ‘overthinking’ the issue. Let me give the crude, direct answer that I have been trying to avoid because I was not sure whether it could psychologically affect some people.
- Suppose our world is as follows: Nothing has colors, not even black and white, because those are also colors. Foods don’t have taste, not even salty taste; absolutely no taste. No ‘pleasing music.’ No smells. No sexual enjoyment (that is also a saññā).
- For those who enjoy jhāna/samāpatti, there will be no ‘jhānic/samāpatti pleasure.’ That is also a saññā.’
Now, you may have to think through this in detail. It would be impossible to live in a colorless world, let alone being able to enjoy it. It would be as if we didn’t have eyes. This is why the Buddha called ‘saññā‘ a mirage.
- Again, science has confirmed that nothing in this world has color, and Sunlight is colorless as well. See “The Illusion of Perception (Saññā) – It Is Scientific Consensus.”
- As discussed there, scientists have also confirmed that other sensory inputs do not have the corresponding attributes of taste, smell, etc.
That is the ‘ultimate truth’ or ‘paramattha sacca.’ It can also be called ‘ultimate reality’ or ‘paramattha dhamma.’
- The ‘experienced reality’ of a world with colors, smells, tastes, etc., is generated in the mind (in the brain, according to scientists).
- I guess scientists do not consider this an issue to worry about, because they do not believe in rebirth. They say that the perception (saññā) of color, taste, etc., gradually evolved over time. According to them, life started with inert molecules forming more complex versions, and perception and other ‘mental entities’ (such as feelings of joy and sorrow) emerged over time!
- Of course, they are unable to explain how that happens, i.e., how a bunch of complex molecules can give rise to feelings, perception, and consciousness. This is called the ‘hard problem of consciousness.’
- Most people are not even aware of this astonishing fact. The general public believes that colors are either in objects or in sunlight.
- When I read books or publications on the ‘hard problem of consciousness,’ no one seems to be bothered about it. They are only bothered by the inability to explain how it occurs via evolution.
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Lang wrote: “I have always understood ‘paramattha sacca‘ to mean the 4 “ultimate realities”: rūpa, citta, cetasika, nibbāna.”
- That is also correct. The world of 31 realms and the living beings in them, in ultimate reality, can be described by only rūpa, citta, and cetasika. When an Arahant separates from the ‘world of 31 realms,’ Nibbana is the result.
- “Things” in the world of 31 realms are described by rupa, which do not possess colors, tastes, etc. The ‘living beings’ have rūpa, citta, cetasika.
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I just revised the post “Overcoming Kāma Saññā – Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi or Jhāna” to clarify a few points and to make the distinction between Ariya and anariya jhāna clearer.
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Developing sati/mindfulness means having the mindfulness (sati) present in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi.
- The above is a critical point that most people do not understand.
- The critical feature of the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi is that it is devoid of the ‘kāma saññā.’
- As long as kāma saññā can arise, it is impossible to prevent the mind from getting to the ‘purāna kamma’ stage to automatically generate vitakka/vicara (thoughts with kāma sankappa).
- See “Sandiṭṭhiko – What Does It Mean?” and “Overcoming Kāma Saññā – Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi or Jhāna.”
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