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You wrote: “Most of us can’t know what horrible deeds we did in prior lives, evil seeds of what we have done germinating within us, waiting for the right patch of fertile soil to take root and sprout. If I have the idea right?”
- Yes. That is correct.
- However, we know that we have not done an anantarika kamma (like killing a parent or an Arahant) in our previous lives. That would have prevented us from being born as humans. So, anyone who has not done such a deed in this life is eligible to attain a magga phala, i.e., the Sotapanna stage.
- As I pointed out earlier, Angulimala killed hundreds of people and still was able to attain the Sotapanna stage within a short time of meeting the Buddha. A few weeks later, he attained the Arahantship, too.
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1. Your summary is good. Thank you for taking the time to think this through and summarize it. You wrote: “Most of this was from perusing Pure Dhamma and these forums, especially this post from Amin.” Yes. It is a good comment.
- What you described are ‘human gati‘. One is born human because of kammic energies accumulated with those gati (in previous lives). The Buddha divided all sentient beings into five major gati types. The “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68)” lists five main categories: Hell (niraya), the animal realm (tiracchāna), the hungry ghost realm (peta), humans (manussa), and the Deva.
- In contrast, every time one (or more) of those precepts is broken, one would have a gati associated with an apaya (one of the four lowest realms, corresponding to the first three types of gati). That does not mean that even breaking a single precept can land one in an apaya; we all break at least some of those at times in various degrees.
- The fourth type of gati corresponds to the human realm. The fifth, “deva gati,” is assigned to the six Deva realms and Brahmās in the 20 Brahma realms. The ‘deva gati’ is assigned to the six Deva realms are similar to that of ‘human gati‘, but better. They involve abstaining from breaking the precepts you discussed and engaging in meritorious deeds such as giving and showing compassion. (To cultivate the gati of the Brahmās in the 20 Brahma realms requires cultivating jhana and arupa samapatti; I discussed that in “Big Picture – Three Types of Bhava“).
- Therefore, to be reborn in a ‘good realm’ (human realm or one of the six Deva realms, leaving aside the Brahma realms), one must abstain from breaking those precepts you discussed and engaging in meritorious deeds such as giving and showing compassion.
- So, one would have two ‘reservoirs’ built: one would be the ‘set of bad kamma‘ accumulated, and the other would be the ‘good set’.
- The next rebirth is decided based on the relative sizes of those two sets. If one has accumulated a relatively large reservoir of ‘good kamma‘ that can overcome the set of ‘bad kamma‘ to lend to a good rebirth. However, that only conveys the basic idea. The Buddha gave an analogy: Consider a cup of pure water and a large bucket of pure water. If you add a teaspoon of salt to each, the ‘saltiness’ is obvious only in the cup of water. If the bucket is large enough, its ‘saltiness’ may not be even detectable. Thus, if one has accumulated a relatively large pool of ‘good kamma‘, the effect of some minor ‘bad kamma‘ would be negligible.
- The Buddha discussed the effects of ‘good kamma‘ and ‘bad kamma‘ in detail in the “Mahākammavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 136)“. It is too long for me to translate. I think the translation in the link is good enough. I would be happy to answer any questions.
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2. Then, there is a deeper aspect to the Buddha’s teachings.
- The above material is enough to get started. It teaches one how to avoid bad rebirths.
- However, following precepts alone does not guarantee avoiding ‘bad rebirths’. Based on temptations, any human who is at least not a Sotapanna Anugami may even commit a highly potent ‘bad kamma‘ that can directly lead to a rebirth in an apaya.
- Furthermore, even someone who is likely to be reborn in an apaya (due to obviously potent bad kamma accumulated) can overcome that by comprehending the deeper teachings. An example is Angulimala, who killed hundreds of people and was likely to be reborn in an apaya. But the Buddha taught Dhamma to him, and he became a Sotapanna (free of rebirths in an apaya) within a short ime; see “Murderer to a Sotapanna in an Hour – How Is That Possible?“
- That is the aspect that I have focused on in most posts during the past few years. But I realize I need to discuss more of the basics, too.
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Let me think a bit about how to present my thoughts. There are two ways to think about these issues. If others have any thoughts, please feel free to comment.
TGS wrote: “I’m still not 100% sure as of this time if Brahma’s generate new kamma or not, but it does seem quite certain to me that Brahma’s does not generate new kamma that can lead to future rebirths even if being attached to rupa and arupa Sanna in the Rupa and arupa Loka’s. Because if Brahma’s could or does generate new kamma based on being attached to rupa and arupa sanna in the rupa and arupa loka’s that can lead to further rebirths, than Brahma’s can literally generate new kamma to stay or be reborn in the rupa or arupa loka’s “indefinitely” from new kamma generated where they would intend for rebirth in those realms, but we know that’s not the case.”
- Yes. If Brahmas can generate new kammic energy via their own jhana/samapatti, then they could stay in that Brahma realm indefinitely. That is obviously not the case.
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TGS wrote:” The same can be said for living beings in the hell realms, where if living beings in the hell realms does generate new kamma which would be pretty much unwholesome kammas that could lead to future rebirths. Then the living beings in the hell realm would pretty much be trapped in the apaya’s due to new unwholesome kamma generated, but once again this is not the case. “
- Most beings that enter an apaya stay there until the end of the eon, unless they have accrued ‘good kammic energy to be born in a ‘good realm’ before entering that apaya realm. This is because it is impossible to generate new ‘good kammic energy’ while in such a realm.
- As a result, most of them spend the rest of the eon in an apaya. As explained in the posts, “Aggañña Sutta Discussion – Introduction” and “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“, all living beings in the lower realms are reborn as humans at the beginning of a new eon. So, they will not be trapped in an apaya forever.
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TGS wrote: “So it seems like the human mind or bhava is pretty much where all the new kamma generation occurs for future rebirths. “
- Exactly. This is a critical point for everyone to comprehend! More on this aspect in the post “Big Picture – Three Types of Bhava“.
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TGS wrote (at the end): “While I can see where Brahma’s being attached rupa sanna and arupa Sanna in the rupa and arupa loka’s does not lead to further rebirths, but wouldn’t a human mind attached to rupa Sanna and arupa Sanna like practitioners of anariya jhana’s generate new kamma that leads to future rebirths in the Rupa and arupa lokas? “
- Good observation. The reason is that a human must generate new kammic energy to switch from the kama loka to the rupa loka via the ‘upadana paccaya bhava‘ step. That kammic energy propels one from the kama loka to the rupa loka during human life (while cultivating that jhana). That is a punna abhisankhara that leads to rebirth in that Brahma realm.
- In contrast, a Brahma born in that realm does not generate new kammic energy. They just ‘enjoy’ the ‘jhanic pleasure’ generated by the kammic energy created in the previous human life (until that kammic energy runs out).
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Yes. This is a subtle issue. I am glad that you thought about it.
- Any anariya Brahma in rupa loka or arupa loka has not eliminated even a single samyojana.
- Therefore, they are not ‘released’ from future rebirths in any realm, including even the apayas.
- However, a Brahma in either of those two lokas is incapable of committing any of the dasa akusala during that lifetime. Thoughts of stealing, killing, sexual misconduct, lying, etc., are avoided in those realms; there is no need to steal, kill, etc., and they are unisex and do not engage in sexual activity (they do not have physical bodies). Therefore, they don’t engage in any ‘new kamma‘ generation, and thus no new kammic energies are accumulated.
- Still, they have accumulated enough kammic energy to bring numerous rebirths (especially in lower realms) in their previous lives; this also holds for any human puthujjana.
- Attaining a jhana or arupa samaptti (while in the human realm) is an anantarika kamma, and thus those human puthijjana are invariably born in the corresponding Brahma realm upon death of the physical body, even if the human lifespan has not run out; as we know, human bhava (existence) can last for many thousands of years. This is similar to a human who will definitely be reborn in an apaya upon death if they have committed an anantarika kamma like killing a parent.
- New rebirths are gradually stopped as one attains more and more magga phala, i.e., with the elimination of samyojana. A Sotapanna who has eliminated the first three samyojana is released from rebirths in the apayas; an Anagami is released from rebirths in the kama loka with the elimination of the kama raga and patigha samyojana; an Arahant has eliminated all ten samyojana and is thus released from any rebirth.
P.S. In summary: “Rupa saññā” and “arupa saññā” keep them attached to that mind-made “jhanic” or “samapatti” sukha. But that will not trigger committing a kamma that can accrue kammic energy.
I just deleted Christian’s post with his email address upon his request.
- That was the post just before Jorg’s last post.
1. Nāmarūpa formation begins with the first step of bahiddha viññāṇa, i.e., the first defiled citta of cakkhu viññāṇa.
- The ‘distorted saññā‘ first prepares a ‘distorted rupa‘ in the first citta of Pañcadvāravajjana.
- The mind starts adding ‘more features’ to that ‘mind-made rupa‘ based on one’s unbroken samyojana and also gati at that specific time; nāmarūpa keeps getting stronger at each step. The more features added, the stronger the interest (and attachment) becomes.
2. The nāmarūpa formation is strongest in the ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’ step. That is when kāma guna comes into play.
- There is also a going back and forth between ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’ and ‘nāmarūpa paccayā viññāna’, which makes nāmarūpa (and viññāna) growth even stronger. They support each other.
- That is explained in the “Naḷakalāpī Sutta (SN 12.67)“. An analogy is given @marker 7.4.
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P.S. Going back to Tobias’s first question (“Is cakkhu viññeyya rupa equal to nāmarūpa in PS?”).
- The ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa’ is the ‘enhanced nāmarūpa’ that is generated by cakkhu viññāna after incorporating kāma guna, as we can deduce from the above.
- Therefore, the answer is ‘YES’.
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A citta is the fastest entity in the whole universe. Yet, many things can happen within a citta. It is quite amazing!
- Even more activity is indicated in the Sampaṭicchana citta. The following is the description I gave above.
- Sampaṭicchana: ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ leading to generating ‘kāma guna‘ (rupa generated by the ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘) leads to generating (samphassa-ja) vēdanā (PS: ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’, ‘nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana’, ‘salāyatana paccayā (sam)phassō’, ‘(sam)phassa paccayā (samphassa-ja) vēdanā’ steps complete).
The following is from #2 in “Cetasika (Mental Factors)“: Within a citta, seven cetasika are always present, and they undertake different functions: Phassa (contact); vēdanā (feeling); saññā (perception); cētanā (assembles a citta with all relevant cetasika arising at the moment); Ekaggata (One-pointedness) can become Sammā Samādhi; jivitindriya (life faculty); manasikāra is a complex entity (could be yoniso manasikāra or ayoniso manasikāra; see #3 below.)
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1. Yes. They are two types of viññāṇa.
- In fact, two types of rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa are associated with the bahiddha and ajjhatta stages.
- These are among the 11 types associated with each upādānakkhandha: “Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhu, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho. Yā kāci vedanā … yā kāci saññā …ye keci saṅkhārā … yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati viññāṇakkhandho.”
- See “Puṇṇama Sutta (SN 22.82)“.
- One must fully understand these to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna. In fact, ‘kaye kāya‘ in Kāye Kāyānupassanā refers to the ajjhatta kāya and bahiddha kāya. For example, ajjhatta kāya refers to the five components associated with the ajjhatta stage of the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya. See “Kāye Kāyānupassanā – Details in Satipaṭṭhāna“.
- P.S. I just revised the post “Kāye Kāyānupassanā – Details in Satipaṭṭhāna“ to emphasize it.
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2. Yes. I missed the santirana citta.
- It is the ‘(samphassa-ja) vēdanā paccayā taṇhā’ step that I included in the Vottapana citta.
- There, ‘tirana’ is the ‘decision’ that the vedana is worthwhile attaching to.
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3. It is by making connections among the material in various suttas and Abhidhamma.
I am considering a slightly different approach. I wonder whether it would be good to discuss how thoughts (citta, pronounced ‘chiththa’) arise in the gandhabba or manomaya kaya. That can reveal some insights.
1. When the gandhabba is trapped inside the physical body, it cannot receive sensory inputs directly. For example, to see an apple on a table, first the following process must take place: (i) Light reflected from the apple must enter the eye, (ii) The tiny sensory receptors in the eye detect that reflected light and those signals propagate to the brain, where they are processed into a form that can be understood by the ‘hadaya vatthu‘ (‘seat of the mind’) located in the gandhabba.
- Now, the brain is in the head, and the gandhabba is trapped in the lower body area close to the physical heart.
- Thus, the brain sends that signal to the gandhabba via a pulse of electromagnetic (EM) radiation; in Pali, these are called ‘kirana‘. Scientists have observed such EM pulses.
- Therefore, there is a time delay (of the order of 10 milliseconds or about a hundredth of a second) before the signal reaches the gandhabba.
2. On the other hand, suppose the gandhabba of a second person has come out of the physical body and is also in the same room.
- That gandhabba can see the apple directly. There are no physical eyes or brains in the gandhabba. The ‘cakkhu pasada rupa‘ associated with the ‘hadaya vatthu‘ can see directly by itself. Note that it can see the ‘red color’ of the apple without having physical sensors.
- Thus, the gandhabba of the second person actually sees the apple even more clearly. The signal did not have to go through intermediate steps of the eyes and brain.
- By the way, there are four more pasada rupa that process sounds, smells, tastes, and body touches. Thus, altogether there are five pasada rupa around the hadaya vatthu of the gandhabba. However, when the gandhabba is out of the physical body, only the ‘cakkhu pasada rupa‘ and ‘sota pasada pasada rupa‘ associated with sensing sight and sound are operational (together with the hadaya vatthu). The physical body is needed to generate the signal associated with taste, smell, and touch.
- Another point is that the gandhabba, consisting of the hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa, is smaller than an atom in modern science. Thus, it can move at nearly the speed of light. This is how the Buddha visited Deva or Brahma loka located far above the Earth ‘within the time taken for stretching an arm,’ as described in the suttas. That gandhabba can go through walls, too, as has been confirmed by people who have had ‘out-of-body experiences’.
3. The above description may help clarify the following ‘out-of-body experience’ discussed in #6 of “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind“. Please feel free to ask questions.
The following video describes a heart surgeon’s experience. He is not a Buddhist (and is very likely not even aware of Buddha’s teachings), but he is convinced of his experience.
The woman in the above video temporarily lost brain function, similar to other NDE accounts.
- In most cases, the patient is unaware of the external world until the brain recovers. However, in this case, the patient’s gandhabba left her body, allowing her to see without the aid of her physical body.
- The woman’s gandhabba may have come out of the paralyzed body at some point. It was in the room when Dr. Greyson (see Ref. 2 below) came and followed him to the other room, where her friend was. The gandhabba (‘mental body’) of the woman watched and listened to the conversation between her friend and Dr. Greyson.
- Once medical treatment restored her brain function, she could recall the conversation and tell Dr. Greyson about it in great detail. She not only heard but also saw the full details. That is why she noticed the red stain on Dr. Greyson’s tie!
- So, she was able to see (in color) with her gandhabba body. Can there be any doubts about that?
- The gandhabba emerging from the physical body is not common. However, Dr. Greyson mentioned (perhaps in another video) that approximately 10% of people have experienced such an OBE. It is more common among patients who undergo heart surgery because the hadaya vatthu in the mental body overlaps the heart in the physical body.
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I made errors in my comment posted on October 27, 2026, at 2:00 pm. I just deleted it. The following is the corrected version.
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Sorry. I just saw Lang’s (cubibobi) comment.
Let me summarize what I wrote in response to Tobias’ questions to clarify the time sequences in the two approaches (citta vithi and PS):
The following discussion is on the first citta vithi generated in the mind upon receiving an ‘enticing sensory input’.
Pañcadvāravajjana citta: kāma dhātu stage (PS has no term; PS has not started yet)
Cakkhu Viññāṇa: bahiddha and ajjhatta viññāṇa complete (PS: ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra‘ and ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna’ steps complete)
Sampaṭicchana: ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ leading to generating ‘kāma guna‘ (rupa generated by the ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘) leads to generating (samphassa-ja) vēdanā (PS: ‘viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa’, ‘nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana’, ‘salāyatana paccayā (sam)phassō’, ‘(sam)phassa paccayā (samphassa-ja) vēdanā’ steps complete)
Vottapana: PS: ‘(samphassa-ja) vēdanā paccayā taṇhā’, ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna’.
Javana Citta (7): This is where kammic energies are generated, and the mind grasps bhava and jati in real time (part of that kammic energy will be reserved to generate future bhava and jati). However, the kammic energy generated in the very first citta vithi (that we are discussing now) is negligibly small. There will be millions/billions more citta vithi once the mind attaches to the first citta vithi.
As I will explain that last part in upcoming posts.
The last item in a citta vithi:
Tadārammana (2): That ‘temporary jāti‘ generates a ‘temporary bhavaṅga‘ (BT) and fuels the next citta vithi (This takes place within the PS cycles; there can be billions of PS cycles operating above; each subsequent cycle is stronger than the previous one). This may not be easy to understand at first.
- Note that in the very first citta vithi, only weak sankappa are generated in the ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra’ step.
- The subsequent citta vithis, saṅkhāra in ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra‘, are potent/strong sankhara done with kaya, vaci, and mano kamma, i.e., dasa akusala).
To emphasize:
The above discussion is on the first citta vithi generated in the mind upon receiving an ‘enticing sensory input’. That citta vithi goes through the mind in a billionth of a second. There will be millions/billions more citta vithi as the mind examines the sensory input and keeps attaching to it. Furthermore, subsequent citta vithi can also lead to speech and physical action.
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My apologies for the confusion.
Also, as I mentioned previously, not all those details are necessary to attain the Sotapanna stage, in case the above analysis scares some off, especially those unfamiliar with citta vithi in Abhidhamma. But it could help those familiar with Abhidhamma.
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Let me address Tobias’ questions in order.
1. At which citta in the citta vīthi does the mind move from the kāma dhātu stage (with the initial mind-made rūpa and distorted kāma saññā) into the bahiddha viññāṇa stage? Does this happen already in the Pañcadvāravajjana citta, or only with the Cakkhu viññāṇa citta?
- In the first citta in the citta vithi (Pañcadvāravajjana citta), only the ‘mind-made rupa‘ generated via ‘kāma saññā‘ is experienced. Even an Arahant experiences it. That is essentially the kāma dhātu stage.
- The mind of a puthujjana is first defiled with the bahiddha viññāṇa, with saṅkappa arising in the mind. It is then further defiled with more saṅkappa, and the ajhhatta viññāṇa arises. Both of these happen within the second citta in the citta vithi, i.e., ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘. This is the same as the conclusion of the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step in PS.
- The mind of the Arahant stays in the kāma dhātu stage.
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2. In the Paṭicca Samuppāda sequence, where do the bahiddha viññāṇa and ajjhatta viññāṇa stages correspond?
- Does bahiddha viññāṇa cover the steps from avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra up to viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa?
- Does the transition to ajjhatta viññāṇa (and the conversion of indriya to āyatana) begin with the nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana step?
Answer: In the Paṭicca Samuppāda sequence, ‘avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra‘ (these saṅkhāra are saṅkappa) initiates the bahiddha viññāṇa. Then, the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa‘ (with more saṅkappa) leads to the ajjhatta viññāṇa.
- So, the answer to the question: “a. Does bahiddha viññāṇa cover the steps from avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra up to viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa?” is no.
Regarding the question: “b. Does the transition to ajjhatta viññāṇa (and the conversion of indriya to āyatana) begin with the nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana step?”
- Saḷāyatana means the involvement of all six āyatana.
- For example, in a visual event, cakkhu āyatana (cakkhāyatana) is born first in the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa‘ in PS (and in the second citta of cakkhu viññāṇa in the citta vithi version).
- The other five āyatana start getting involved at the ‘nāmarupa paccayā saḷāyatana‘ step in PS (and in the third citta of Sampaṭicchana in the citta vithi version).
- Therefore, the transition to ajjhatta viññāṇa is complete with the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step.
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3. Since viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa takes place at the Sampaṭicchana citta, does that mean the bahiddha viññāṇa stage is completed by that point, while the ajjhatta viññāṇa stage (with saḷāyatana) begins at or after the Sampaṭicchana citta (e.g., during santīraṇa)?
- Bahiddha viññāṇa is completed early in the cakkhu viññāṇa citta, the second citta in the citta vithi (alternatively, within the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step in PS).
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4. In the verse cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, is the rūpe the mind-made rūpa of the bahiddha stage, and has the mind already left the kāma dhātu stage by this point?
- The ‘cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṃ’ (which appears in some suttas) is complete by the cakkhu viññāṇa citta, the second citta in the citta vithi (alternatively, within the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step in PS).
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5. Does the same sequence apply when dhammā come directly to the mind-door (mano dvāra)? (kāma dhātu → bahiddha viññāṇa → ajjhatta viññāṇa)
- Yes.
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Please feel free to ask further questions. I can incorporate those in finalizing the draft post on “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It” in the “Paṭicca Samuppāda Cycles” section.
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P.S. Note that ‘nāmarupa formation’ starts at the first step of bahiddha viññāṇa generation. However, with each step, ‘nāmarupa‘ gets stronger.
- It becomes significantly stronger with the generation of ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ (rupa generated by the ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘ ) after the arising of cakkhu viññāṇa (in the second second citta in the citta vithi or the ‘saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa’ step in PS).
- At that point, the mind scans past experiences and adds ‘more features’ to the ‘mind-made rupa‘.
- That ‘cakkhu viññeyya rupa‘ also depends on one’s mindset at that specific moment. For example, if one is in a party atmosphere or under the influence of alcohol/drugs, a ‘stronger nāmarupa‘ may arise, strengthening ‘kāma guna‘ (the enticing aspects the mind attaches to the object). See “Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā)“.
I guess it is possible, but it seems unlikely to me.
- A Sotapanna can be reborn in the human realm and still have the kama-raga samyojana. So, it cannot be ruled out.
- In any case, a raja-cakkavatthi (an emperor who controls all the countries in the world) is rarely born.
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