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I wrote a draft post that may answer your questions: “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It“. It is in the “Paṭicca Samuppāda Cycles” section.
- Please read it and ask further questions about unclear aspects. I can expand that post.
- The ‘viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa‘ step happens at the Saṁpaṭiccana citta in a citta vithi.
- However, the first version of the ‘mind-made rupa‘ happens inside the first citta: Pañcadvāravajjana citta. If the mind attaches to it, then the citta vithi starts, and the mind moves to the second citta: Cakkhu viññāna.
- That mind-made version keeps ‘intensifying’ at each citta, even though it started with the first citta. It is a very fast process that we cannot see; only a Buddha can see that.
Yes, Tobias. Your observations are correct.
- However, we must keep in mind that those suttas pertain to the Noble Persons above the Sotapanna stage.
- Those suttās convey that magga phala are attained through paññā cultivated with Vipassanā.
- However, the optimum version of Vipassanā (leading to magga phala) can be done only inside the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi. A Sotapanna must first cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna (i.e., work on the ‘sati indriya‘) to be able to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi.
- I have discussed that in recent posts: “37 Factors of Enlightenment – Meditation To Attain Arahanthood” and “Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta – Misconceptions and Wrong Translations“.
- In general, any sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya above SN 45 (i.e., suttas starting at SN 45.1) are specifically for Sotapannas trying to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna. I am just pointing out facts for the general audience.
I also revised the post in question and added #11: “Pañca Indriya and Pañca Bala – Five Faculties and Five Powers“
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I am glad that you captured the essence of the great reward of being a Sotapanna. The Buddha taught that it is better than being an emperor who controls all the countries in the world (rājā cakkavattī), or any (anariya) Deva or Brahma in any realm.
- A whole series of suttas, starting with the “Cakkavattirāja Sutta (SN 55.1)“, states so. One can read the whole series to confirm.
- However, it is not easy to attain, because for most people it is hard even to accept that sensory pleasures are mirages.
- Although some scientists and philosophers understand this, they hold uccheda ditthi (the belief that life ends with the death of the physical body) and thus do not understand how that ‘perception of pleasure’ arises via Paticca Samuppada; they believe distorted perception arises in the brain.
P.S. It would be better if you comment on a specific post in the “Questions About Puredhamma Posts” thread. The “General Forum” is for general comments and questions on any topic.
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New:
Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta – Misconceptions and Wrong Translations
Revised:
37 Factors of Enlightenment – Meditation To Attain Arahanthood
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By ‘suffering-filled world,’ I did not necessarily imply that everyone in the human realm experiences dukkha vedana all the time. Some who are born rich and healthy may live most of their life without significant suffering, as they perceive it. Those in the Deva or Brahma realms hardly experience any ‘suffering’ as they perceive it.
- However, in the long run, all puthujjana (in any realm, including the Deva and Brahma realms) are mostly reborn in the apayas. That is when the dukkha vedana becomes unbearable. This is why attaining the Sotapanna stage is critical.
- I plan to discuss that in detail in upcoming posts. This is why ‘uccheda ditthi‘ (the wrong view that there is no rebirth process) is the most dangerous.
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Saurabh asked: “Sir, by ‘mental body’ are you referring to ‘citta’? Also, what is the difference between citta and mind?”
- ‘Citta‘ means a ‘pure thought’. However, citta become mano when they are first defiled in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage; then then further defile to vinnana in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage. However, in many cases, ‘citta‘ is loosely refered to as ‘thoughts’.
- The ‘seat of the mind’ (or where citta arise) is called ‘hadaya vatthu‘ in Abhidhamma. It is smaller than an atom in science. That ‘hadaya vatthu‘ is associated with the ‘manomaya kaya‘ or the ‘mental body’. This is why the manomaya kaya (which is called a ‘gandhabba‘ for a human) is invisible. When the gandhabba comes out of the physical body in Near-Death Experiences (NDE), it is invisible to other humans. See “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind“.
- For an Arahant, citta arise, but they don’t degrade to mano or vinnana.
- Don’t worry if you don’t really understand that. It will become clear later.
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Saurabh asked: “I see it is implying that, it is only sotapanna who has Panca Indriya. In other words, No puthujjana has Panca Indriya, until they become sotapanna. Am I correct in drawing this conclusion?”
- That is correct. See the explanation below.
Saurabh asked: “These 4 references, as per my understanding, are implying that satipatthana bhumi is kind of same as ‘pure abodes’, or at least close to it if not same. Am I correct?”
- No. “Pure Abodes” (Suddhāvāsa) are the five highest realms of the rūpa loka reserved for Anāgāmis.
- Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi can be accessed by a living Sotāpanna (or any Noble Person) after cultivating Satipaṭṭhāna.
- The mind of a puthujjana is always covered by panca nivarana, and therefore, it cannot ‘think clearly’ and thus cannot engage in Vipassanā. Even the mind of a Sotāpanna who has not cultivated Satipaṭṭhāna is covered by panca nivarana.
- Yes. A puthujjana does not have any of the ‘five faculties’ of ‘pañca Indriya‘, which are needed to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna.
- As long as a mind is inside the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi, panca nivarana do not arise for that duration. That is why one must first cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna to be able to engage in Vipassanā to attain higher magga phala.
Saurabh asked: “So once ariya attains parinibbana, is there no way to reach them?”
- ‘Parinibbana‘ can be interpreted in two ways. (i) An Arahant has eliminated all ten samyojana and thus has attained Nibbana or has reached ‘full Nibbana‘ (‘pari‘ in ‘Parinibbana‘ means ‘full’ or ‘complete’). Thus, reaching the Arahant stage can be called ‘Parinibbana‘. (ii) The death of an Arahant is also called ‘Parinibbana‘. But only the physical body dies at that point. The ‘mental body’ had attained ‘Parinibbana‘ at the moment of attaining the Arahant stage.
- Of course, an Arahant‘s (or the Buddha’s) physical body keeps the ‘mental body’ from dying. As long as the physical body lives, the ‘mental body’ cannot die. That is why the Buddha could teach Dhamma to others!
- Thus, we can ‘reach’ (and communicate with) an Arahant until their physical body dies.
- However, once the physical body dies, an Arahant does not/cannot ‘come back to this world’. They are separated from the suffering-filled world forever.
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New:
37 Factors of Enlightenment – Meditation To Attain Arahanthood
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We all wish you well in this new chapter in your life. You have certainly chosen a good environment to practice.
- May the Blessings of the Triple Gem be with you always!
- Sādhu! Sādhu!! Sādhu!!!
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Saurabh wrote: “So basically, we cannot imagine/fathom what all lord buddha had realized.”
- No. That is not what I meant.
- The difficulty for me was to sort out the correct teachings of Buddha. These days, different people have different interpretations that have evolved (‘devolved’ is the better word) over the past two thousand years.
- It was Wharaka Thero who started the process of uncovering the correct teachings of the Buddha. Only a ‘jati Sotapanna‘ (who had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) can do that with the help of the Tipitaka books written over two thousand years ago. He would have uncovered more if he had not passed away in 2017. We should all be grateful to him, and also do our best to keep making progress.
- Once the interpretations become clear, it is easy to understand.
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Saurabh asked: “So both pleasant as well as unpleasant experiences are due to distorted sanna?”
- Yes. All sensory experiences are based on illusions.
- Thinking the sensory experiences are real, one attaches to ‘pleasurable feelings’ (sukha vedana) with kama raga.
- Those sensory experiences that lead to ‘sorrow or anger’ (dukha vedana) are also illusions. They generate patigha.
- Even those that lead to ‘neutral feelings’ (adukkhamasukha vedana) are also illusions. They generate at least avijja. For example, when we see the blue sky or green grass, we accept that as ‘reality’, and that is avijja. The sky is not blue, and grass is not green. Those colors are mind-made. Of course, avijja is generated in both of the other two cases, too.
- This is the ‘previously unheard teachings of the Buddha’.
- Modern science agrees, but it tries to explain the illusory nature of sensory experience as arising in the brain. See “Without ‘Mind-Made’ Perception, World Is Colorless, Soundless, Tasteless, Odorless, and Touchless“.
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‘Meditation’ can have two meanings:
- Contemplation is a type of meditation. One must contemplate the Dhamma concepts one has learned. Venerable Kondanna (one of the five ascetics) attained the Sotāpanna stage while he was contemplating the concepts he learned from the Buddha.
- However, in the Buddha Dhamma, ‘bhavanā‘ refers to Vipassanā, which can be done only in the Satipatthāna Bhumi (even a Sotāpanna must first cultivate Satipatthāna to enter the Satipatthāna Bhumi).
I discussed that in #3 of “Is It Necessary for a Sotāpanna to Abstain from Sensual Pleasures?“
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Saurabh’s next- to-last comment: “can we say that rebirth process is also sustained by accumulated kammic energies, via also the moral or wise deeds, speech and thoughts?”
- Yes, if you mean mundane moral or wise deeds, speech, and thoughts.
- Kammic energy is generated in both ways: (i) apunna abhisankhara involved in immoral deeds, speech, and thoughts, and (ii) punna abhisankhara involved in (mundane) moral deeds, speech, and thoughts. The latter category includes compassion, giving, etc that lead to rebirths in higher realms, while the former leads to rebirths in the apayas.
- Good point. Both sustain the rebirth process.
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Regarding Saurabh’s last comment:
- It is quite difficult to separate mental activity from brain activity.
- The mental body (gandhabba) is trapped inside the solid physical body. It receives only the sensory inputs that the brain transmits to it. This is why some people get into ‘vegetative states’ when their brain gets damaged. See “Persistent Vegetative State – Buddhist View”
- Thus, gandhabba is totally unaware of the external world unless it receives that information from the brain. See “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body.”
- However, if the gandhabba ‘pops out’ of the physical body, then it can see, hear, and think on its own. That is what happens in Near-Death Experiences: “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind“. Since it does not have a physical body (the ‘mental body’ is smaller than an atom in modern science), it can also go through walls, ceilings, etc. However, because it lacks a solid, physical body, it does not have taste, smell, or touch sensations.
- It is amazing that the Buddha discovered such details about our existence.
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I am glad to read your comment. It seems I am at least getting my message through to some.
1. It took me over fifteen years of daily contemplation to get to this point. But as the Buddha stated, his teachings are deeper than anyone can imagine. He said he only taught a fraction of what he realized!
- The main problem, as I see it, is that most people don’t know where to get started. Many meditation programs teach ‘Vipassana‘, but even the teachers are not even Sotapannas.
- One must be a Sotapanna even to start cultivating Satipatthana, and that must be done before that Sotapanna can start engaging in Vipassana! Engaging in Vipassana is the same as cultivating Satta Bojjhanga.
- See “Is It Necessary for a Sotāpanna to Abstain from Sensual Pleasures?“
2. Those with uccheda ditthi can never make any real progress. As I have explained in recent posts, many scientists and philosophers know that sensory experiences are not real. However, they are trying to understand them without a rebirth process. For example, they think thoughts arise in the brain and try to figure out how the brain ‘developed’ to that stage to generate feelings and awareness.
- However, some are beginning to realize that the brain is not where our thoughts arise:
- In the video, she mentioned the famous case of ‘patient HM,’ who lost memories in a brain operation. I discussed that in “Patient H.M. – Different Roles of Brain in Memory“
- More relevant posts in “Brain and the Gandhabba“
3. Even though those with sassata ditthi are in a better position, they also cannot understand Paticca Samuppada as long as they believe in a permanent soul-type entity.
- Paticca Samuppada says one extends the rebirth process each time one initiates a Paticca Samuppada process with the belief that experience (at that moment) is real.
- This is why that process (and the rebirth process itself) can also be stopped within a short time. Venerable Bahiya stopped the rebirth process (i.e., became an Arahant) within an hour! Angulimala attained the Sotapanna stage within an hour after killing almost a thousand people.
4. The systematic way to learn Buddha’s teachings is summarized at the beginning of the “Buddha Dhamma – Systematic” section. That section starts with the following:
The Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) provides a succinct roadmap to Nibbāna. The first stage of Ānāpānasati only involves embracing the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ (‘āna‘) and rejecting the ‘mundane worldviews’ (‘āpāna‘); see “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’,” “First Stage of Ānāpānasati – Seeing the Anicca Nature of ‘Kāya’” and “First Stage of Ānāpānasati – Verses in Ānāpānasati Sutta.” That enables one to attain the Sotāpanna stage.
- Then, the second stage of Ānāpānasati is to cultivate Cattārō Satipaṭṭhāna.
- That enables one to fulfill Satta Bojjhaṅga and the Noble Eightfold Path (ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko magga) in the third stage of Ānāpānasati.
- The second and third stages of Ānāpānasati are discussed in “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview,” “Kāye Kāyānupassanā – Details in Satipaṭṭhāna,” and “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview.”
There, rejecting the ‘mundane worldviews’ (‘āpāna‘) is to reject the idea that sensory experiences are real. Embracing the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ (‘āna‘) is to realize that any feeling of ‘sukha‘ and ‘dukha‘ in sensory experiences are triggered by the ‘distorted sanna‘.
- The best example of that is ‘rupa sanna‘ or the ‘distorted sight’. We see colorful objects, but no such objects exist in the world! In fact, even our ability to ‘see anything’ is generated via that ‘rupa sanna‘. See “Human Life is Unlivable in a ‘Colorless’ World.”
- The problem is not with ‘seeing’ but with attaching to the vedana (joyful or depressing/angry feelings) and engaging in immoral deeds. However, as long as one does not fully comprehend how those six types of ‘distorted sanna‘ (via the six senses) arise, engaging in such immoral deeds cannot be stopped with ‘willpower’.
5. Understanding the kamma generation process is the first step, as mentioned in #4 above.
- I encourage everyone to ask questions until any doubts are cleared. The teachings have been so badly distorted over thousands of years.
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The following new video is an indication of the emerging realization that the brain is not where our thoughts arise:
In the video, she mentioned the famous case of ‘patient HM,’ who lost memories in a brain operation. I discussed that in “Patient H.M. – Different Roles of Brain in Memory“
More relevant posts in “Brain and the Gandhabba“
