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1. I listened to about 20 minutes from that point. The Thero is saying the following:
- Just breathing in and out is only saṅkhāra, not abhisaṅkhāra.
- One needs to breathe to move body parts (He quotes a Waharaka Thero‘s discourse on this, and I have also listened to it).
- If one moves body parts with sañcetanā, or “defiled cetanā” or “defiled intentions,” then those involve abhisankhara.
2. All of those are correct.
- That is precisely what I am saying, too.
- Moving the body requires breathing. If you move your body to steal or kill someone, that involves abhisaṅkhāra, not pure saṅkhāra (without raga, dosa, moha)
3. The problem is the following: The Buddha always referred to abhisaṅkhāra. In the suttas, the word saṅkhāra almost always refers to abhisaṅkhāra. There is no point discussing pure saṅkhāra in the suttas, because kamma generation involves raga, dosa, and moha.
- Pure saṅkhāra (without raga, dosa, moha) are generated by Arahants, too. There is no point talking about pure saṅkhāra in the suttas.
- The suttas discuss only those saṅkhāra involving sañcetanā, i.e., abhisaṅkhāra.
4. Conclusion: Assāsapassāsā in “Assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” (discussed in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta) cannot be “breathing in and out.”
- “Breathing in and out” is due to pure saṅkhāra.
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If any of the above is incorrect, you (or the Thero) should respond to each incorrect point. I don’t have the time to read other documents or watch more videos.
I think it is a good idea to emphasize the following.
- “Kamma” in Buddha’s teachings does not refer to all actions.
- Only those actions, speech, and thoughts involving rāga, dosa, and moha are “kamma.”
- Thus, the goal (“kamma nirodha“) does not refer to stopping all actions, speech, and thoughts, but only those involving rāga, dosa, or moha.
- The Buddha lived for 45 years after attaining Buddhahood and engaged in countless actions, speech, and thoughts.
- Additionally, “kamma nirodha” is equivalent to “saṅkhāra nirodha.” Still, as we have discussed, saṅkhāra refers to abhisaṅkhāra performed with sañcetanā, or “defiled cetanā” or “defiled intentions” (characterized by rāga, dosa, or moha).
- This is a crucial yet simple point to remember. That is why “breathing in and out” cannot be a type of abhisaṅkhāra.
- Please feel free to ask questions, because this is a critical point. Also see “Kamma are Done with Abhisaṅkhāra – Types of Abhisaṅkhāra.”
You asked: “Do you agree with the implied meaning from Cūḷavedallasutta (MN 44) that assāsapassāsā means breathing in and out?”
No. I don’t agree. I suppose I didn’t make it clear enough. So, I have revised my comment above to add the following (please see my comment above):
“P.S. Therefore, Assāsapassāsā cannot possibly mean “breathing in and out.” That translation is wrong.”
- The correct meaning is explained in #4 of my comment.
- As we have discussed many times, a word can have different meanings depending on the context. That holds not only for Pāli, but also for English and most languages. See, for example, “Pāli Dictionaries – Are They Reliable?“
Rewritten Post:
“Attato Samanupassati” and Sotapanna Stage
Revised:
Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi
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1. All five components of pañcupādānakkhandha (pañca upādānakkhandha, i.e., rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa) are mental entities, i.e., they arise in the mind.
- In the recent post “Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi,” I presented evidence that “rupa” in the suttās refers to “rupa upadanakkhandha” and is mental.
2. Similarly, “saṅkhāra” in the suttās always refers to “abhisaṅkhāra” with “sañcetanā.” As we know, “sañ” refers to defilements or “rāga, dosa, moha.”
3. (Abhi)saṅkhāra can also be categorized as kāya saṅkhāra, vacī saṅkhāra, and citta saṅkhāra. They are all done with “sañcetanā.”
- Yes. The “Cūḷavedallasutta (MN 44)” explains them as “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.” The English translation in the link translates the first part as “Breathing is a physical process,” implying that Assāsapassāsā means “breathing in and out.”
- Of course, breathing is also controlled by the mind, but it does not involve “sañcetanā.” P.S. Therefore, Assāsapassāsā cannot possibly mean “breathing in and out.” That translation is wrong.
- In some older posts, I also may have referred to kāya saṅkhāra incorrectly. I realized that error within the past couple of years (there may be posts that require revision). I haven’t had time to look for and correct such possible errors in old posts.
4. Kāya saṅkhāra refers to sankappa (subtle version of “abhisaṅkhāra“) that are automatically generated in the “purāna kamma” stage; see “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- I have not explicitly discussed the fact that kāya saṅkhāra refers to sankappa. I will explain that when I start rewriting the posts on Satipaṭṭhāna.
- Until then, I can only state the meaning of “Assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” as “one must fully comprehend how sankappa arises in the purāna kamma stage.” Thus, “Assāsapassāsā” is not a definition of kāya saṅkhāra. It merely states that to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna, one must fully comprehend how sankappa arises in the purāna kamma stage.
- Here, “Assāsapassāsa” has the same meaning as “jānato passato.” See “Jānato Passato” and Ājāniya – Critical Words to Remember.”
5. Buddha’s teachings are much deeper and profound than most people realize. I realized this only within the past couple of years.
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I found the following account from the Tipitaka of Ven. Adhimutta (an Arahant).
- He was captured by a band of bandits. In those days, some people believed in making sacrifices to the Gods.
- They were taking him to be sacrificed, but were astonished to see that the Thero was not afraid of being killed. Usually, their victims would be screaming and begging for their lives.
- The following account starts with the bandits asking him why he is not scared: “Adhimuttattheragāthā.”
- Thero‘s response is from marker 3.1 through 15.4. He explains to them why he is not afraid of dying (he had broken all ten samyojana, including asmi māna or the “sense of me”); in fact, he is looking forward to Parinibbāna to be free of even a trace of suffering.
- As stated there, in the end, some of the bandits become bhikkhus and attain Arahantship.
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1. Whether or not one believes in a “sense of me,” that “sense of me” is in everyone except for an Arahant.
- It is a “sansāric bond” (specifically “asmi māna” samyojana) that binds all except Arahants to the rebirth process.
- The easiest way to check this is to think about the following: Are you not afraid to die? If someone tries to kill you, would you not panic and try to avoid getting killed using all your resources?
2. In the same way, all ten samyojana (sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, silabbata parāmāsa, kāma rāga, paṭigha, rupa rāga, arupa rāga, māna, uddaccha, avijjā) are in an average human (puthujjana).
- See #14 of “Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi“ and my comments on May 25, 2025, above.
- They can be broken only by fully understanding the Buddha’s worldview, i.e., by cultivating paññā. That is a step-by-step process. Getting rid of asmi māna comes at the end. Even thinking about how to remove the “sense of me” is unfathomable even to a Sotapanna. It is like trying to learn calculus without knowing how to add and subtract.
Yes, I seem to have missed an enormous factor, 9 orders of magnitude! Thank you!
- However, we can also look at it the other way, i.e., if the time taken is 10 billion years, then the mass removed by each stroke is about 36 × 10^-9 grams. The correct numbers could be somewhere in between.
- So, I need to think about how to correct it. Either way, it shows the magnitude of the time scale.
Yes, if you mean that the flow of life is real and will be there as long as the fuel (raga, dosa, moha) to feed it is there.
- An Arahant lives until the end of the physical body that he/she was born with. That physical body was born before attaining Arahanthood and will survive until the kammic energy it came with is exhausted. Once the physical body dies, all fuel is exhausted, and the lifestream of the Arahant ends—no more rebirths in any of the 31 realms in this world.
- On the other hand, a puthujjana (average human) — or even a Noble Person below the Arahant stage — would have more fuel to sustain another life at the death of the physical body. But a Sotapanna would not have fuel to initiate a rebirth in an apaya; an Anagami would not have fuel to initiate a rebirth in the kama loka.
I have updated the post “Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi“ to discuss the above.
- I think it is a valid point to discuss. Thank you for bringing it up.
1. Do you care about suffering?
- The Bodhisatta strived to find and stop the root causes of suffering. He did not investigate whether a “self” or “me” exists in reality.
- His investigations led to attaining Buddhahood. That is when he discovered the actual reality of existence, i.e., the fact that there is no “me” in ultimate reality is a byproduct of solving the root causes of suffering.
- The Buddha emphasized that he teaches the following: “In the past, as today, what I describe is suffering and the cessation of suffering.” See “Alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22).”
- Similar statements are in several suttās. See, for example, “Titthāyatana Sutta (AN 3.61).”
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2. There is another critical point.
- One should not focus on whether a “self” or “me” exists in ultimate reality (especially at the beginning).
- Focusing on that can lead to stress and even mental issues. We have discussed one such case recently in this forum.
- Only at or above the Anāgāmi stage will one realize the truth of that ultimate reality.
3. This is why I stated the sequence of handling diṭṭhi, taṇhā, and māna (issue of a “me”) in that order. To quote from yesterday’s post, “Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi“:
“14. Thus, attachment to sensory inputs occurs with taṇhā, māna, and diṭṭhi.
- The latter (diṭṭhi) is specifically sakkāya diṭṭhi. One first removes sakkāya diṭṭhi (and the associated vicikicchā and silabbata parāmāsa) at the Sotapanna stage.
- Taṇhā manifests as kāma rāga, rupa rāga, and arupa rāga. Kāma rāga (tendency to attach to sensual pleasures and associated paṭigha) is removed at the Anāgāmi stage. Rupa rāga (craving jhānic pleasures) and arupa rāga (craving arupa samāpatti pleasures) are removed at the Arahant stage.
- Removal of kāma rāga and paṭigha stops rebirths in kāma loka. Removal of rupa rāga and arupa rāga also stops rebirths in rupa and arupa loka, respectively; those “jhānic/samāpatti pleasures” are also mind-made.
- Finally, māna (sense of “me”) is also removed at the Arahant stage.“
Rewritten Post:
Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi
Revised:
Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, And Jhāna Samāpatti.
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1. Thank you for summarizing the passages in my previous posts. It will help me revise them as needed.
- Also, you wrote: “<br />” I’ve tried several times to delete it, but it doesn’t work. So I’ll just leave it as is.”
- Sorry about that. It is a bug with the forum software. I have corrected them above. In the future, just leave them; I can easily correct them.
2. The following is the correct statement (which you quoted first):
- “There is a widespread belief that Buddha Gotama’s Buddha Sāsana will last 5000 years. However, I have not seen it in the Tipiṭaka. It could be in a later Commentary, but I have not seen such a commentary either.”
- Let me provide some evidence from the Tipiṭaka to confirm it.
3. The “Gotami Sutta (AN 8.51)” has the following verse (I have linked to that verse): “Sace, ānanda, nālabhissa mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajjaṃ, ciraṭṭhitikaṃ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṃ abhavissa, vassasahassameva saddhammo tiṭṭheyya. Yato ca kho, ānanda, mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajito, na dāni, ānanda, brahmacariyaṃ ciraṭṭhitikaṃ bhavissati. Pañceva dāni, ānanda, vassasatāni saddhammo ṭhassati.”
Translated: “But, Ānanda, if women had not obtained permission to bear the robes, the Buddha Sasana would have lasted 1,000 years. But now that I have given them permission, the Sasana will last only 500 years.”- However, at least one sutta says that as long as true Dhamma does not disappear, people will be able to attain Nibbana as long as there are living Sotapannas (or above) who can teach others. That is discussed below.
4. The Buddha emphasized that his teachings (among humans) will not disappear as long as there are at least Sotapannas among humans who can keep passing down the teachings to the next generation.
- That is in the “Mahāparinibbāna Sutta (DN 16)”: “Yasmiṁ kho, subhadda, dhammavinaye ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo na upalabbhati, samaṇopi tattha na upalabbhati. Dutiyopi tattha samaṇo na upalabbhati. Tatiyopi tattha samaṇo na upalabbhati. Catutthopi tattha samaṇo na upalabbhati. Yasmiñca kho, subhadda, dhammavinaye ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo upalabbhati, samaṇopi tattha upalabbhati, dutiyopi tattha samaṇo upalabbhati, tatiyopi tattha samaṇo upalabbhati, catutthopi tattha samaṇo upalabbhati. Imasmiṁ kho, subhadda, dhammavinaye ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo upalabbhati, idheva, subhadda, samaṇo, idha dutiyo samaṇo, idha tatiyo samaṇo, idha catuttho samaṇo, suññā parappavādā samaṇebhi aññehi. –Ime ca, subhadda, bhikkhū sammā vihareyyuṁ, asuñño loko arahantehi assāti.”
That means: “Subhadda, in whatever teaching and training the noble eightfold path is not found, there is no true Sotapanna, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi, or Arahant. In whatever teaching and training the noble eightfold path is found, there is a true Sotapanna, a Sakadāgāmi, an Anāgāmi, and an Arahant. The noble eightfold path is found in this teaching (Buddha Dhamma) and training (Vinaya).
– As long as bhikkhus maintain the Ariya lineage, this world will have Arahants.”
5. I have extracted #3 and #4 above from the post, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala.” Those are #12 and #13 in that post.
- That post provides a complete explanation.
