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I simply do not understand the point you are trying to make.
- Of course, “puñña mula paccayā saṅkhāro” is valid; see my comment above. That is the standard Paticca Samuppada process, even though it is not usually written like that. It leads to rebirths in the ‘good realms.’
- In other words, “puñña mula” is also “avijjā.” Since puñña kamma also fuels the rebirth cycle, “puñña mula paccayā saṅkhāro” is the same as “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāro”
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The point of the new post, “Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It”, is to say there cannot be a Paticca Samuppada process with “kusalamūla paccayā saṅkhāra.” Do you have any evidence against that?
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Note: Even though I initially wrote, “Furthermore, there is not a single sutta with a verse including “puñña mula paccayā saṅkhāro” OR “kusalamūla paccayā saṅkhāro”
- I revised it to the following immediately at that time: Furthermore, there is not a single sutta with a verse including “kusalamūla paccayā saṅkhāro.” Of course, “puñña mula paccayā saṅkhāro” is valid. But they lead to more rebirths, not to Nibbāna.”
The critical problem with your suggestion is the following:
You wrote: (1) Replace “kusalamūla paccayā saṅkhāro” with “puñña mula paccayā saṅkhāro”
- You missed the main point in today’s post, “Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It.”
- The point is that one cannot attain Nibbana by engaging in puñña kamma. Please specifically read #3 there.
- Also, read the following post, which was a recommended link there: “Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna).” As explained in detail there, any puñña kamma also extends the cycle of rebirth. They can lead to rebirth in the ‘good realms’ at or above the human realm, but NOT to Nibbāna.
- Furthermore, there is not a single sutta with a verse including “kusalamūla paccayā saṅkhāro.” Of course, “puñña mula paccayā saṅkhāro” is valid. But they lead to more rebirths, not to Nibbāna.
P.S. The following sutta explains how various types of puñña kamma lead to rebirth in corresponding ‘good realms’: “Puññakiriyavatthu Sutta (AN 8.36).”
I just posted the final version of the draft at the beginning of this thread: “Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It“
- Please feel free to comment or ask questions.
New:
Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It
Revised:
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I have revised an old post on that subject: “Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna).”
- I hope that would help. Feel free to ask questions. These issues must be resolved.
We can say raga, dosa, moha or the mundane versions of alobha, adosa, amoha arise in a mind based on avijja.
- Avijja is eliminated by comprehending that all ‘sensory pleasures’ are mind-made and, thus, are of anicca nature. That anicca nature also leads to dukkha (suffering), and thus attaching to such ‘mind-made sensory pleasures’ are of anatta nature. That leads to the lokottara version of alobha, adosa, amoha.
- One becomes a Sotapanna by seeing the truth of that.
- But a Sotapanna still attaches to those sensory pleasures with tanha and mana. They have eliminated only ditthi. That is why they must cultivate Satipatthana to eliminate tanha and mana. Both of those are are eliminated at the Arahant stage. An Anagami eliminates only part of tanha involving the kama loka; they still have tanha for (mind-made) jhanic/samapatti ‘pleasures’ in rupa and arupa loka. See “Etaṁ Mama, Esohamasmi, Eso Me Attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi.”
- Avijja (and tanha, mana, ditthi) is totally eliminated only at the Arahant stage.
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Yes. All rebirths among the 31 realms arise due to six root causes: (i) lobha, dosa, moha on the ‘immoral side’ lead to rebirths in the apāyās, and (ii) mundane versions of alobha, adosa, amoha on the ‘moral side’ lead to rebirths in the rest, which are ‘relatively good.’
- Magga phala can be attained only with lokuttara versions of alobha, adosa, amoha, i.e., based on the comprehension of anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature.
We can clarify this by understanding what is meant by ‘kamma‘ and ‘cetana‘ in the suttas.
1. In the Buddha Dhamma, ‘kamma‘ means actions, speech, and thoughts that are based on raga, dosa, or moha. Only those can lead to vipaka.
- Thus, they include punna kamma, apunna kamma, and akusala kamma.
- Therefore, walking to the kitchen to get a glass of water is not an act of kamma.
- An Arahant offering part of his meal to a hungry person is also not a kamma, since that action was not based on raga, dosa, or moha (even though it would be a punna kamma for a puthujjana).
2. That is also why ‘cetana‘ in the suttas really means ‘ sancetana‘, or ‘intentions rooted in raga, dosa, or moha.’
- See #2 of “Details of Kamma – Intention, Who Is Affected, Kamma Patha.”
- Sañcetanā are ‘defiled intentions,’ and actions, speech, and thoughts based on them are abhisankhara. Thus, only those actions, speech, and thoughts that belong to punna kamma, apunna kamma, and akusala kamma involve abhisankhara. Also see #1 above.
3. Therefore, it is necessary to keep in mind those two issues discussed above when reading suttas.
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4. Therefore, only sankhara (devoid of raga, dosa, or moha) and NOT abhisankhara can arise in an Arahant.
- The same is true for anyone (Sotapanna or above) while their minds are in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi. No abhisankhara generation there, either.
5. Please ask further questions if anything is unclear.
You are absolutely correct, Tobias.
- Even ‘puñña kamma‘ (with sobhana cetasika) are done with avijjā.
- I made a mistake there.
- Just below that, I made the correct statement: While in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi, one would only examine the steps in Paṭicca Samuppāda or anicca, dukkha, anatta, or the Four Noble Truths. In other words, how the mind becomes defiled, starting with the ‘distorted saññā‘ (various types of kāma saññā in our kāma loka; a ‘rupa loka Brahma‘ would contemplate the role of types of saññā that arise in the rupa loka).
- That does not involve any sobhana cetasika either. In fact, here the paññā cetasika ‘graduates to a ñāna‘ for a Sotapanna, which is the first āsvakkhaya ñāna.
- The transition from the highest levels of vijānāti (with paññā) to pajānātī happens at the Sotāpanna Anugami stage; pajānātī is not a superficial understanding but rather with paññā cakkhu (as a Sotāpanna Anugami), which then turns to ‘dhamma cakkhu’ (at an even higher level of abhijānātī) at the Sotāpanna stage. See #8 and #9 in “Mahāvedalla Sutta – Sañjānātī, Vijānāti, Pajānāti.”
- Thank you for pointing that out. This is why comments are useful.
P.S. When one becomes a Sotapanna (and is actively cultivating the Noble Path), all the mental factors on the mundane eightfold path (i.e., sobhana cetasika) are elevated to lokottara versions. For example, paññā is elevated to the ñāna level, and sati (mundane mindfulness) is elevated to Samma Sati. Of course, that would happen ONLY WHEN a Sotapanna‘s mind is in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi (and he/she is actively cultivating the Noble Path). Two other critical mental factors (cetasika), vitakka and vicara, turn to dhamma vitakka/vicara, i.e., critically examining Dhamma concepts.
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Tobias asked: “So are you saying that Vb 6 in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is incorrect and/or was added later?”
- Yes. The Commentaries were probably added later.
- Yes. I am saying certain sections of Vb 6 in the Abhidhamma Pitaka are incorrect.
Tobias asked: “Does that mean the Arahants were mistaken?”
- Those sections, or the Vb 6 in its entirety, may have been added later.
Regarding the questions on cetasika: Bypassing the ‘distorted saññā‘ only blocks avijjā from arising and triggering the initiation of a Paṭicca Samuppāda (or a pañcupādānakkhandha process).
- Thus, only the asobhana cetasika (including lobha, dosa, moha) are blocked from arising.
- The sobhana cetasika are not blocked. In fact, this is when the paññā cetasika can be optimal.
Tobias asked: “I’m still grappling with the question of how one actually thinks without external sensory input and without distorted sanna, or rather, how one arrives at genuine kusala citta? If the mind has no external sensory input (no panca-dvara citta vithi), one can only think about dhammas. In this way, one can have contact with sadhamma and, with appropriate “paccaya,” generate kusala citta and ultimately realize magga phala (e.g., during meditation). Is that correct? But this also requires cetasika; yet it isn’t paṭicca samuppāda?”
- Once the mind is in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi, one engages in genuine Vipassanā.
- Here, one would not think about specific external sensory inputs. One would only examine the steps in Paṭicca Samuppāda or anicca, dukkha, anatta, or the Four Noble Truths. In other words, how the mind becomes defiled, starting with the ‘distorted saññā‘ (various types of kāma saññā in our kāma loka; a ‘rupa loka Brahma‘ would contemplate the role of types of saññā that arise in the rupa loka).
- As I explained in the draft post, there is no specific list of kusala kamma. Cultivating kusala means to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna. A kusala citta is any citta that arises in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi, helping the mind to eliminate anusaya/samyojana.
- Of course, what happens in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi is not Paṭicca Samuppāda. A Paṭicca Samuppāda process ALWAYS generates new kamma, starting at the ‘purana kamma’ stage. The goal of the practice is to stop Paṭicca Samuppāda (or pañcupādānakkhandha) processes from starting; they do not start in an Arahant, and they do not run for anyone while their mind is in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi!
- Whoever wrote those sections in Vb6 did not understand how a Paṭicca Samuppāda process is initiated at the ‘purana kamma‘ stage, triggered by the ‘distorted saññā ‘.
- The following figure from the post “Murderer to a Sotāpanna in an Hour – How Is That Possible?“ could be helpful. No mind contamination in (D):
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I am in the process of rewriting some old posts on kamma and kamma vipaka.
- It is good to understand those two concepts before studying pancakkhandha or pancupadanakkhandha. I will get to that hopefully soon.
- In the meantime, please read the following posts and ask questions if anything is unclear.
Kusala/Akusala And Puñña/Apuñña Kamma | Pure Dhamma
Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)
Details Of Kamma – Intention, Who Is Affected, Kamma Patha | Pure Dhamma
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1. The deeper aspects of Buddha’s teachings became clear to me only after I realized the huge role of the ‘distorted saññā.’ For us in ‘kama loka,’ it comes in various types of ‘kama loka saññā’ associated with all sensory inputs coming through our senses.
- With that understanding, I realized that there are no separate sets of ‘vipaka vedana‘ and ‘kamma vedana.’ In the same way, vinnana also cannot be separated into ‘vipaka vinnana‘ and ‘kamma vinnana.‘
- Even my teacher, Waharaka Thero, was also misled by the Tipitaka Commentary “Paṭicca Samuppāda Vibhaṅga.” Such categories are discussed there under ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda.’
- However, the only Paṭicca Samuppāda discussed in the suttas is the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda.
- We know that almost all suttas were delivered by the Buddha. On the other hand, Commentaries (even those included in the Tipitaka) were written later. Therefore, we must give preference to the suttas, especially when there is an inconsistency.
- While the Tipitaka Commentaries are generally reliable, this specific part on ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda’ is in conflict with the suttas.
- I outlined a post recently on this subject, and it provides this background. It is only a draft, and I need to complete it: “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It“
2. The kamma accumulation process starts with a sensory input, and it is triggered by the ‘distorted saññā.’ It happens in two stages: ‘purāna kamma’ and ‘nava kamma’: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation“
- As pointed out in “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It” the ‘vipaka stage discussed in ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda’ is the ‘purāna kamma’ stage discussed in the suttas.
- Thus, someone had made an error in composing a separate ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda’ in the“Paṭicca Samuppāda Vibhaṅga.”
- Even though I have been revising some posts with the incorrect interpretations, there are still some that require revision. Please keep this in mind when reading old posts. If you see ‘vipaka vedana‘ and ‘kamma vedana‘ or ‘vipaka vinnana‘ and ‘kamma vinnana‘ discussed, those posts need revision. I hope to get to them in time. I just don’t have enough time to get it done quickly.
3. If anyone would like to point out any errors in my interpretations (based on the Tipitaka), I welcome such comments. Please email me ([email protected]) or comment on this thread in the forum.
- Our goal is to sort out the correct teachings of the Buddha. Those teachings have been so much distorted over the years.
P.S. Julian asked for clarity on ‘kama guna.’ The following post could be helpful: “Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā).”
After reviewing the suggested posts above, I realized it is a good idea to write an introductory post tying up Paṭicca Samuppāda and pañcupādānakkhandha. Both are initiated by a sensory event and are affected by the ‘distorted saññā.’ I realized that many people (especially those who are new to this website) are not aware of the role played by the ‘distorted saññā.’
- I will try to do that in a couple of days.
- As I mentioned above, I also need to revise some old posts. I will post any updates here.
I need to rewrite those posts. I will post them here once I do that.
- In the meantime, please read the following recent posts on the subject: “Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)– New Series”
- Please feel free to ask questions about those posts. Please refer to the specific post and the bullet number if that helps to clarify our questions.
P.S. You can edit a comment if done within an hour of the original post. The site administrators (myself and Seng Kiat Ng) can edit a post at any time if requested by the person who posted it. If a correction to a post is needed, please email me: [email protected]
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New:
Murderer to a Sotapanna in an Hour – How Is That Possible?
Revised:
I have deleted some posts in the Bhāvanā (Meditation) | Pure Dhamma section. I will combine some of them and rewrite others in the future. I also removed the ‘pull-down menu’ in this section. One needs to click the link to the main section to see the posts in this section; please only use the posts that are displayed. I may do that for other sections too, since it reduces the website’s load time.It is amazing how corrupt the original teachings have become. It may take me some time to fully revise the old posts even in other sections.
