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Hi Akvan. I’m afraid I don’t have a link for the original sutta or any sutta related to this. Perhaps there are others who might know and can be of more assistance.
Lal said:
“But something appears to be wrong with the above extractions from that document. ”I think so too. Especially now after finding this from palikanon:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/sa/satagira.htm
“Their conversation is found in the introductory gāthā of the Hemavata Sutta (q.v.). Buddhaghosa says (SNA.i.199) that, according to some, this meeting took place, not on the occasion of the first sermon, but later, when the Buddha was living in the Gotāmaka cetiya. “Quotes from 2 PD posts on vedana:
1) “For example, when we see an “eye-pleasing picture”, the initial vēdanā felt by the mind is neutral.”2) “For example, seeing a person X only leads to an upekkha vedana for ANYONE initially.””
So if later today, I play my favorite music, even though I am very much attached to it via kama raga, the very initial vedana will be neutral? No matter how many times I listen to it and and how many times I enjoy that music today?
Thank you Lal. That point has been made clear.
This post is very interesting as it has a lot of information that sparked many questions. I won’t raise them all at once though.
The next thing I want to understand more clearly is the 4 anupassana, because this post gives a very detailed description of vedanupassana.
From the many PureDhamma posts on vedana and Satipatthana sutta that I have read, what I understood from those posts is that:
–Kāyānupassanā is about becoming aware of vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara, and thus controlling vaca and kammantha.
–cittanupassana is about becoming aware of internal vaci sankhara and thus controlling sankappa.
–vedananupassana is about becoming aware of the vedana that have arisen and preventing the vedana from turning into vaci sankhara/kaya sankhara.Questions:
1) Did I understand those 3 anupassana correctly?2) I’m still unclear about what dhammanupassana is. Is it about contemplating on Dhamma concepts, especially tilakkhana, when the akusala mula have reduced to a certain extent as a result of doing the other 3 anupassana?
3) Is this the ideal sequence one should do the Satipatthana bhavana as one progresses on the Path: Kāyānupassanā, cittanupassana, vedananupassana, dhammanupassana?
From another forum topic, Akvan had commented:
“I have heard or read (though I cannot recall where) that a sotapanna anugamu will definitely attain sotapanna pala before his death in that very same life time. If someone has a tripitaka reference for this would be great if you can share it.”To which Siebe referred sutta SN25.1
https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato
^ The english translation of that sutta says:
“They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.”I’m not sure if that is the correct translation.
My question:
Will a Sotapanna Anugami become a Sotapanna in the very same jathi or very same bhava?In order to be sure:
–samphassa ja vedana is strictly mano sankhara.
–samphassa ja vedana is not at all vaci sankhara(because vaci sankhara involves vitakka and vicara cetasika, and not the vedana cetasika.)Is the above correct?
These bodily sensations only come during formal meditation right? Then I don’t think this applies to me, because I get these goosebumps outside of formal meditation during the following situations:
1) When I send out good wishes with actual feeling. This metta bhavana is not formal. I’ve been trying to do it throughout the day, even while standing, before eating, before brushing my teeth. I notice a clear difference in my body between when the wishes are sent out mechanically(as in I’m saying it but I don’t really mean it)-this is when I don’t get goosebumps vs when I say it and do mean it-this is when I get goosebumps even if I’m sending the wishes while standing.
2) Listening to and chanting Namaskaraya and Tisarana vandana mindfully-goosebumps. When both are done mechanically-no goosebumps.
3) Seeing an image of the Buddha while actually thinking about a Buddha’s attributes-goosebumps. Whereas when I don’t think about the attributes- no goosebumps.
A case of cetana or cetasikas affecting the body?
Hi Christian. So it is related to the asmi mana cetasika?
Awhile back I had found this interesting post(I recommend it as a good read) about goosebumps and its possible meaning as per other beliefs. It also mentions Abhidhamma.
From that link:
“In religious literature, the prickly feeling is also mentioned as an accompanying aspect of deep contemplation and meditation. In the Abhidhamma, the most recent part of the Buddhist Pali canon, the sensation of a prickling indicates a certain level of meditation: after the thoughts have ceased to flow, an overwhelming joy (priti) spreads throughout the whole body which may intensify to total ecstasy. ”1) Does the above have any validity?
2) Does the Abhidhamma mention anything about the goosebumps sensation in meditation(as opposed to goosebumps in other situations like music or fever) and its possible meaning?
3) Or is that goosebumps feeling is rooted in asmi mana and moha?
y not said:
“He does not say that he transmigrated in those 14 as a Sotapanna. He was NOT a Sotapanna back then.”Even though I do not know if this was clarified in the sutta, I think this is the case as well.
King Bimbisara became a Sotapanna about 2600 years ago. The lifespan of even the lowest deva loka is supposed to be 9 million years. If he exhausted 7 deva existences in addition to 7 more human jathi after becoming a Sotapanna, all this would not be possible in the 2600 years that have since passed.
And even if the exact calculation of the lowest deva loka lifespan is not confirmed, then it should be at least thousands of years, and even then the above would not be possible.
I’m still curious about this:
-When someone removes the 10 micca ditthi, it is said they have entered the mundane Path and are getting closer to grasping tilakkhana.
1) Is it known what happens to a dvihetuka person when they remove all of the 10 micca ditthi?
2) Or is it that, fully discarding all of the 10 micca ditthi is not even possible for a dvihetuka person, just as grasping tilakkhana is not possible, at least in this bhava(but hopefully in the immediate next bhava, no guarantee I know). Hence why they might remain with niyata micca ditthi, an example would be practising Buddha Dhamma without the belief in rebirth/kamma.
I wonder if the devas/humans who have niyata micca ditthi are dvihetuka(since it lacks the amoha root), and maybe that is why they could be afraid of Nibbana. To be clear, I’m not saying that anyone who is afraid of Nibbana is dvihetuka, perhaps more along the lines of a tihetuka who didn’t remove all the 10 micca ditthi just yet. I myself in the past, would probably not have regarded Nibbana as that great, but now I see this as the highest goal.
On a related note, when someone removes the 10 micca ditthi, it is said they have entered the mundane Path and are getting closer to grasping tilakkhana. I’d think this would not apply for those with dvihetuka as they wouldn’t be able to in this bhava. So then is it even possible for a dvihetuka person to remove all of the 10 micca ditthi within the same bhava?
Thank you Lal for making this post! I hope it helps others who could have had the same questions as me.
Thank you for that Lal, it has cleared things up.
About the technical issues, I have not edited any of my posts, nor have any of my posts been deleted. Things seems to be fine now.
Regarding where I am on the Path, I might email you about it or write a post on it sometime later in the personal experiences section so as not to digress from the topic here.
And also thank you to Akvan, SengKiat, and y not for contributing to the conversation.
Lal said:
“Nibbana is the ultimate solution. Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate truth in this world.”^Yes, this makes much more sense. I agree with it.
So does this mean anatta’s definition of “does not hold any ultimate truth” could be said differently as “does not hold any ultimate happiness/ultimate solution”. The latter definition would make much more sense to me personally, and would not contradict with the idea that Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate truth that can be found in this world.
Going back to the discussion:
That first quote was not something I said. It was me quoting what SengKiat wrote. I should have made that clear, I apologize. I included that in my points because nothing was said about it, so I assumed you approved it.In addition, the very post above SengKiat, I had asked:
“thus Nibbana is the only ultimate transcendent truth?”And Lal answered:
“Nibbana, is the ultimate truth.”So it’s good that point has been made clear.
But I still see a contradiction with the following 2 statements. :
1) You had said there is no ultimate truth to be found in this world. You said:
“Anatta is a fact indicating there is no essence or truth to be had in this world of 31 realms. “.
2) But then you also said that: “The ultimate truths are in the Four Noble Truths”Someone could incorrectly come to the conclusion that Buddha Dhamma(Four Noble Truths, 5 Niyamas, Paticca Samuppada, Noble Eightfold Path, etc) is the ultimate truth. However Buddha Dhamma is still part of this world, and someone could conclude that ultimate truth can indeed be found in this world.
But as it was pointed out by Lal, it is Nibbana that is the ultimate truth. Therefore not even Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate truth.
The following is the conclusion I’ve come to after contemplating, I want to know if my conclusion is flawed:
Even though Buddha Dhamma contains truth(the highest truth in this world/highest mundane truth) and can lead one to the ultimate transcandent truth that is Nibbana(specifically anupadisesa Nibbana as opposed to saupadisesa Nibbana, because saupadisesa Nibbana is attained while still in this world, whereas anupadisesa Nibbana is not of this world, it is transcendent), Buddha Dhamma itself is not anupadisesa Nibbana (the ultimate transcendent truth), Buddha Dhamma is the Path one takes to gain that ultimate transcendent truth(anupadisesa Nibbana). And that is why no ultimate truth can be found in this world.
