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Lal said:
1) “In a way, what it does is to make the mind of the person receiving “to a better state” for cultivating those existing causes.”2) “Receiving pattaidana can make their minds elevated to a better state for at least a short time. During that time, “samanantara” (suitable conditions) are present for that being to be able to “pull some good vipaka” from the “annantara”, i.e., from the kamma bhava.”
My questions:
1) Can those 2 quotes from above be explained via examples? Like let’s say someone(X)does pattidana, and it successfully reaches 2 receivers. A human(Y) and a peta(Z). Both Y and Z have the hetu(causes, good kamma beeja). When Y and Z successfully receive the pattidana, is that pattidana going to do anything to Y and Z’s good kamma beeja?2) Or will the pattidana have no impact on Y and Z’s good kamma beeja. Rather, the only impact the pattidana will have is on the mindset of Y and Z, by elevating their mindsets?
From the Vedana post, Lal described niramisa dukha as:
“Sometimes, one gets a bit discouraged by not advancing “fast enough” on the Path. One thinks about “why am I not getting to the Sōtapanna stage?” or “Is there anything that I am missing in order to make progress?”, etc. ”My question regarding niramisa dukha:
1) Does that above mindset have anything to do with the kukuccha cetasika?2) Can this concern/worry be extended to other sentient beings? Like “why are others not becoming Sotapanna, or sadness about others not even knowing about Buddha Dhamma, and sadness about the reality that so many infinite beings will remain in sansara”?
3) Or would worrying and being sad about others not becoming Sotapanna and remaining in sansara actually be considered as domanassa(amisa dukha) instead of niramisa dukha?
Thanks for fixing the link. I’m going to run a test try. Let me see if it works:
Vēdanā and Samphassa Jā Vēdanā – More Than Just FeelingsLal said:
“Amisa upakkha vedana is the “neutral feeling” felt by a normal human. It can be, and it is at most times, contaminated with avijja. One just does not know the “reality of that particular situation”. ”I had wondered about the association of moha/avijja to an object that is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. I thought “why is that and how?”. Now it makes sense. Thanks for that Lal.
So an Arahant wouldn’t have niramisa sukha either?
Hi Yeos.
If I remember correctly, Lal had said there are two types of asuras. Those from the apayas and those from the deva loka.
In my opinion and according to my understanding, it is not any being from the lower realms/apayas. They have no power, they are helpless. They stay in their realm(especially niraya brings). So I do not believe there is any need to fear them, if anything, feel bad for the suffering they are going through right now. Rather, I think it is beings from the higher realms-deva loka, that have to do with that kind of magic. The beings people mistakenly think of as demons/devil in my opinion are devas. Devas have some inherent capabilities that humans are not equiped with because our human body kind of disables these abilities that our mental body(the gandabba) also inherently has.
Devas/Mara can possess people and shape-shift into different characters. From some suttas, you can get an idea that sometimes they use some of their inherent abilities(possessing humans, shape-shifting, etc) for mischievous actions at times, it is some sort of fun/play for them it seems, but of course they are earning bad kamma for these actions, one Dhammapada verse(I forget which one) even mentioned a bhikkhu who suffered a certain kamma vipaka in the current life for doing such pranks via his deva abilities in past life to two other Bhikkus.
I think there are some humans who might be aware of such devas, the devas interacted with them by making their presence known. These humans probably get enamored/impressed by the devas’ abilities. They might even literally think the devas are God/Gods thus the incorrect translation of deva as “god”. And because these humans crave special talents/abilities/fame/power/status themselves, these humans intentionally actually want/desire to be possessed by the devas, and maybe they think that doing certain rituals will invite the deva to do just that. When really no ritual is needed, because Mara has possessed many people according to the suttas, and these people didn’t do any rituals. It is possible the ritual can merely be their way of getting the attention of devas, and then inviting the devas to possess them. And it is also possible Mara/devas make promises of giving special abilities/status to these humans, but they make the humans do certain activities first-to me this sounds like a prank the devas are playing on humans. At least this is what I think, and is the conclusion I have come to when combining the various information from suttas/Buddhism and watching various youtube videos regarding “other” beings.
A few more points that some may find interesting:
-The word “genius” is supposedly related to “genie.” Genie might be related to the arabic word jinn. The word jinn in arabic also denotes these invisible beings who can possess/shape-shift. Genies grants wishes. Devas can give the impression of granting wishes.
-Mara is king of the sensual realm, a mortal deva himself, and most likely has matchless beauty and certain abilities due to his past good kamma. The devil in Christianity is Lucifer, he also supposedly has exceeding beauty and power, then became a fallen angel. Loki in Norse Mythology is the trickster god.
-The word “spirits” refers to many kinds of alcoholic drinks. Alcohol is most likely to turn off one’s Samma Sati, and when sati is off or low, people are more likely to engage in immorality, and also possibly more vulnerable to getting possessed by beings/”spirits”. Thus even more reason why Samma Sati is so important.If you’re interested, the following videos might give you more of an idea. Especially if you watch them with the information from Buddhism in mind, things might make sense. Of course take everything with a grain of salt as not all can be certain to be 100% true, but they still have something useful to learn from.
1) https://youtu.be/-fq75Ax_kL0
2) https://youtu.be/2JCrx3LP78I
-About how those who didn’t have any or much talent for music suddenly became talented overnight.
-the saying “music of the gods/music from the heavens” takes on a clear new meaning after watching these videos.3) https://youtu.be/Ko7RBI71rQs
Question/answer about Mara and other devas with such abilities starts from 15:11 and ends at 36:50.^ And I’m sorry for the links appearing that way. I tried to follow the instructions posted in the General Information and Updates section on how to add a hyperlink, but for some reason a new window does not open for me and thus I can’t paste the copied link to the url slot.
Thanks for the new additions to that post Lal. Really appreciate it!
And that makes sense. Reminded me of the post on pabhassara citta:
Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and BhavangaHere is the quote from that post:
“Therefore, a “pabhassara citta” is that base state, or the pure state of a citta, BEFORE it goes through the 9 stages of contamination. It has only the 7 universal cetasika.Each and every citta of a given person starts off as a pabhassara citta, but gets contaminated to varying degrees depending one’s personality or one’s advancement along the Path.”
My thinking:
Vedana starts off pure, not contaminated by tanha yet. At this stage vedana is not samphassa ja vedana yet.Questions:
1) Is this initial uncontaminated vedana the amisa upekkha vedana?2) Niramisa upekkha vedana is supposed to be the vedana experienced by Ariyas. Other than the anariya/Ariya aspect, what is the difference between amisa upekkha vedana and niramisa upekkha vedana?
3) What would the initial uncontaminated vedana that arises in a Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami be called? Would it be amisa upekkha or niramisa upekkha or something else?
4) Am I wrong to think that out of those 9 vedana, Arahants would have only 5 out of 9 of those vedana: sukha, dukha, upekkha, niramisa sukha, and niramisa upekkha vedana? I’d think they would have even eliminated the niramisa dukha vedana?
Hi Akvan. I’m afraid I don’t have a link for the original sutta or any sutta related to this. Perhaps there are others who might know and can be of more assistance.
Lal said:
“But something appears to be wrong with the above extractions from that document. ”I think so too. Especially now after finding this from palikanon:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/sa/satagira.htm
“Their conversation is found in the introductory gāthā of the Hemavata Sutta (q.v.). Buddhaghosa says (SNA.i.199) that, according to some, this meeting took place, not on the occasion of the first sermon, but later, when the Buddha was living in the Gotāmaka cetiya. “Quotes from 2 PD posts on vedana:
1) “For example, when we see an “eye-pleasing picture”, the initial vēdanā felt by the mind is neutral.”2) “For example, seeing a person X only leads to an upekkha vedana for ANYONE initially.””
So if later today, I play my favorite music, even though I am very much attached to it via kama raga, the very initial vedana will be neutral? No matter how many times I listen to it and and how many times I enjoy that music today?
Thank you Lal. That point has been made clear.
This post is very interesting as it has a lot of information that sparked many questions. I won’t raise them all at once though.
The next thing I want to understand more clearly is the 4 anupassana, because this post gives a very detailed description of vedanupassana.
From the many PureDhamma posts on vedana and Satipatthana sutta that I have read, what I understood from those posts is that:
–Kāyānupassanā is about becoming aware of vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara, and thus controlling vaca and kammantha.
–cittanupassana is about becoming aware of internal vaci sankhara and thus controlling sankappa.
–vedananupassana is about becoming aware of the vedana that have arisen and preventing the vedana from turning into vaci sankhara/kaya sankhara.Questions:
1) Did I understand those 3 anupassana correctly?2) I’m still unclear about what dhammanupassana is. Is it about contemplating on Dhamma concepts, especially tilakkhana, when the akusala mula have reduced to a certain extent as a result of doing the other 3 anupassana?
3) Is this the ideal sequence one should do the Satipatthana bhavana as one progresses on the Path: Kāyānupassanā, cittanupassana, vedananupassana, dhammanupassana?
From another forum topic, Akvan had commented:
“I have heard or read (though I cannot recall where) that a sotapanna anugamu will definitely attain sotapanna pala before his death in that very same life time. If someone has a tripitaka reference for this would be great if you can share it.”To which Siebe referred sutta SN25.1
https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato
^ The english translation of that sutta says:
“They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.”I’m not sure if that is the correct translation.
My question:
Will a Sotapanna Anugami become a Sotapanna in the very same jathi or very same bhava?In order to be sure:
–samphassa ja vedana is strictly mano sankhara.
–samphassa ja vedana is not at all vaci sankhara(because vaci sankhara involves vitakka and vicara cetasika, and not the vedana cetasika.)Is the above correct?
These bodily sensations only come during formal meditation right? Then I don’t think this applies to me, because I get these goosebumps outside of formal meditation during the following situations:
1) When I send out good wishes with actual feeling. This metta bhavana is not formal. I’ve been trying to do it throughout the day, even while standing, before eating, before brushing my teeth. I notice a clear difference in my body between when the wishes are sent out mechanically(as in I’m saying it but I don’t really mean it)-this is when I don’t get goosebumps vs when I say it and do mean it-this is when I get goosebumps even if I’m sending the wishes while standing.
2) Listening to and chanting Namaskaraya and Tisarana vandana mindfully-goosebumps. When both are done mechanically-no goosebumps.
3) Seeing an image of the Buddha while actually thinking about a Buddha’s attributes-goosebumps. Whereas when I don’t think about the attributes- no goosebumps.
A case of cetana or cetasikas affecting the body?
Hi Christian. So it is related to the asmi mana cetasika?
Awhile back I had found this interesting post(I recommend it as a good read) about goosebumps and its possible meaning as per other beliefs. It also mentions Abhidhamma.
From that link:
“In religious literature, the prickly feeling is also mentioned as an accompanying aspect of deep contemplation and meditation. In the Abhidhamma, the most recent part of the Buddhist Pali canon, the sensation of a prickling indicates a certain level of meditation: after the thoughts have ceased to flow, an overwhelming joy (priti) spreads throughout the whole body which may intensify to total ecstasy. ”1) Does the above have any validity?
2) Does the Abhidhamma mention anything about the goosebumps sensation in meditation(as opposed to goosebumps in other situations like music or fever) and its possible meaning?
3) Or is that goosebumps feeling is rooted in asmi mana and moha?
y not said:
“He does not say that he transmigrated in those 14 as a Sotapanna. He was NOT a Sotapanna back then.”Even though I do not know if this was clarified in the sutta, I think this is the case as well.
King Bimbisara became a Sotapanna about 2600 years ago. The lifespan of even the lowest deva loka is supposed to be 9 million years. If he exhausted 7 deva existences in addition to 7 more human jathi after becoming a Sotapanna, all this would not be possible in the 2600 years that have since passed.
And even if the exact calculation of the lowest deva loka lifespan is not confirmed, then it should be at least thousands of years, and even then the above would not be possible.
