[Tobias G]

In the Abhidhamma manual from Dr. Mehm Tin Mon I found on p.29/30:
7 akusala vipaka citta
8 ahetuka kusala vipaka citta

The one extra citta in the kusala vipaka cittas could be the missing link to kama guna. It is the somanassa-sahagatam santirana cittam or investigating consciousness accompanied by joy. Thus when eating tasty food we will have
– tongue-consciousness accompanied by upekkha,
— followed by receptive consciousness accompanied by upekkha,
— followed by investigating consciousness accompanied by upekkha,
—- followed by investigating consciousness accompanied by joy.

All are vipaka citta but the end result is joy (somanassa).

[Tobias G]

Perfectly explained. Thank you, Lal!
The mistake is when amoha is taken to be panna. But regarding tihetuka the term amoha is more than “without moha”. That is not easy to see.

[Tobias G]

Thank you, that clarified the point.

[Tobias G]

Dr. Mehm Tin Mon describes tihetuka kamma in his book Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science, p. 200:

“If one performs a wholesome deed with the knowledge of kamma and its effect, i.e. kammasakata-nana, then nana-sampayutta maha-kusala cittas arise. The cetana associated with these cittas are accompanied by three good roots, namely, alobha, adosa and amoha. So tihetuka-kusala kamma is acquired.”

Can it be that for tihetuka patisandhi an “early stage” of panna is required, i.e. an understanding that ones actions will have consequences (kamma effect)?

[Tobias G]

I come back to the terms tihetuka/dvihetuka. From the Abhidhamma perspective the 2 cetasika of alobha and adosa are universal sobhana cetasika. They are in every sobhana citta. Sobhana and asobhana cetasika are not mixed in a citta. Hence when a being has sobhana citta at cutipatisandhi there will be no moha cetasika, i.e. amoha. But that means every sobhana (vipaka) citta at cutipatisandhi generates a tihetuka patisandhi, right?

[Tobias G]

The pali word for indefinitely effective seems to be aparapariyavedaniya. Can we assume another meaning?

[Tobias G]

Is panna same as nana? When someone reaches the Arahant stage his/her panna becomes full developed and he/she attains samma nana. So it seems nana equals panna.

[Tobias G]

Hi Lal,
that statement seems not correct:
“– If kamasava is there, ditthasava is definitely there.”

A Sotapanna has removed ditthasava but still has kamasava.

[Tobias G]

Hi Sengkiat, I cannot download the pdf (“400 bad request”). Can you help?

[Tobias G]

There is one more issue in the post Feelings: Sukha, Dukha, Somanassa, and Domanassa. In #11 it is said:

“Now let us consider the consequences of sankhāra in this life, that we mentioned in #6 above. Suppose a teenager starts associating with bad friends and start drinking alcohol. Initially, he does not even like the taste of it, i.e., he may be generating a dukha vēdanā due to the taste of alcohol. But with the insistence of those friends he continues drinking.

Then he makes a habit (gati) of it, begins to perceive the taste as a sukha vēdanā, and starts making sankhāra about drinking. …”

How can the teeanager change his perception from dukha to sukha vedana without the mind inbetween? Actually he should only be able to change his domanassa vedana to somanassa vedana. Sukha or dukha vedana are part of bhava and not mind made or depending on gathi/asava.

[Tobias G]

Hi Lal,
in your post November 21, 2018 at 8:16 am you say:

Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.

Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.

But in the post Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipāka? #3 it is said:

This is why In Abhidhamma, all sense inputs via the other five sense inputs (other than physical body) are initially felt as upekkha (neutral) vēdanā. Only the bodily sense inputs could lead to dukkha vēdanā (getting injured, headaches, cancer, etc) or sukha vēdanā (good massage, lying on a comfortable bed, etc).

Here is nothing mentioned that involves the other 5 sense inputs, only kaya rupa are in play. Thus only with the body one can feel sukha and dukha vedana as kamma vipaka. But of course kama guna are felt by all including Arahants. Somehow there is a missing link…

[Tobias G]

As I understand javana is part of citta. But is javana also part of the physical sound or the sadda rupa?

[Tobias G]

Does this mean, when tasting the sweetness of sugar, this is sukha vedana and also kama guna?

[Tobias G]

What I don’t understand is, how sukha vedana can arise while eating tasty food or smelling a nice odor. This should be sensed by ghana rupa and jivha rupa. Is here kaya rupa involved?

[Tobias G]

That means if kaya rupa are involved sukha or dukha vedana can directly arise. But if the sense input contains only cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha rupa and dhamma then upekkha vedana will arise. Is that correct?

That is also said here: https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/what-is-vedana-feelings/does-bodily-pain-arise-only-due-to-kamma-vipaka/

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