[sybe07]

I will just share my thoughts and hope you are willing to see i am trying, in my own way, to understand buddha-dhamma. If you cannot respect this, so be it.

By a stable element i mean a stable element, an unconditioned element, an element which was never born, does not change in the meantime and does not end. I am convinced such an element is present, and it is not an illusion.

Like Udana 8.3 explains, if there would not be this unconditioned element, no escape from the conditioned could be known or realised. How would we able to make a refuge/island of ourselves if there was not this always present stabel unconditioned element?

This unconditioned element is, i belief, the stable element present in any living being. It is the base, the essence, the ground of any living being. It is always present but not seen because of our obsession and identification with conditioned phenomena.

It is best seen when conditioned processes end. I think, when one experiences this cessation ones asava’s can end immediately. This is because one has seen there is nothing to attach too and one is safe from beginningless time.

Siebe

[sybe07]

To put it in another way,

How can the fruit of buddha-dhamma be stability when we, as a human, would be only instability? If, truthfully, there would be only instability, then realisation would mean that we become more and more instabel, because that would be ‘how things really are’.

This makes no sense.

I think: There must be a stable element to be found in a living being

Siebe

[sybe07]

-“If that method does not seem beneficial, what about khanti (enduring, forbearing, tolerance, patience)? And what about the 7 techniques outlined in the Sabbasava Sutta?” (see above description of 7 techniques) upekkha100

Hi Upekkha,

Just some thoughts,

In general the buddha taught these four ways of practice:
-Painful practice with slow insight,
-painful practice with swift insight,
-pleasant practice with slow insight, and
-pleasant practice with swift insight.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.162/en/sujato

So, i belief that it will be not realistic for certain persons that practicing buddha-dhamma will be easy, pleasant, comfortable for them. It will come with challenges, pains, difficulties, obstacles.

What if these become so overwhelming? Does that mean one practices in a wrong way? What to do? What is wise? In general one says, here comes the role of an experienced teacher into play.

I am not an experienced teacher but i have some thoughts about this. I think it is wise not to compare oneself with the Buddha or other persons progressing on the Path. The Buddha was clearly a very special person just like his main pupils. This might inspire, but i think it is wise to be realistic and not compare ones own abilities with their capacities. Especially when one has mental issues, based on my own experience, one needs to be realistic and see for oneself what does work and does not work. Ones must estimate ones own abilities in a realistic manner.

I think it is not wise to push and insist that certain practices must work for oneself because they also lead to great fruit to others. One must see for oneself how it turns out.

I feel it is very important to be friendly and compassionate to oneself.

Siebe

[sybe07]

Thanks, it’s clear to me.
Siebe

[sybe07]

Is there also a vottapana citta moment in a manodvara citta vitthi?

Siebe

[sybe07]

Yes, i see what you say Lal. Sense-desires, when really strong (kama chanda) really can make you immoral, inhumane, unscrupulous. I belief it is not fictional that, while becoming like an animal as a human under influence of kama chanda, after death one can foresee an animal birth, or even worse because of that energy.

When i look back i can see such moments in my life, unfortunately. Now it is better, but i cannot attest with certainty i am safe yet.

Siebe

[sybe07]

Yes, Lal. In this nice sutta Buddha explains what is the cause for the defilement and purifications of beings.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.60/en/bodhi
Just like you say in many posts.

Because there is also pleasure and not only suffering, we become captivated by that pleasure. By being captivated beings become defiled. And because there is also suffering in life beings experience a certain kind of revulsion (?, often translated like that) or turning away of what causes that suffering. Non-attractiveness. Because of this beings become dispassionate towards it and are purified. That is, in short, the mechanism presented.

It is hard not to be captivated by sense-pleasures, especially when you are unhappy. Then it is almost impossible. It is like being in a trap. Because one is unhappy one starts enjoying sense-pleasures to end that suffering. And by doing so one stays unhappy. The trap of addiction. Hook and bait.

Even when one sees the danger of this addictive pattern, it is still hard to end it, because of the unhappiness one does not want to experience.

When i am happy, sense-pleasures are clearly less captivating. I also think love plays a very great role. When one does not feel loved, appreciated, lonely, craving and thapa is probably there all the time. One wants to end that suffering by eating something nice, hearing something nice, seeing something nice. Brrr…this pattern is hard to break.

I also think boredom is a trigger. One can start grasping at sense-pleasures just out of boredom. One does not want to feel the suffering of boredom. But when one has some task to do, one does not even think about sense-pleasures. There is not even a longing for sense-pleasures at that moment, is my experience. Distraction or just having something to do is important.

[sybe07]

Hi Lal,

I have read somewhere (i think in works of Nina van Gorkom on Abhidhamma) that only magga citta can really uproot anusaya.

By being mindful we can weaken them, but that will not uproot them. To really uproot underlying tendencies to doubt, attachment to rules and rituals, sakkaya dithhi, greed, hate, restlessness, longings for subtle states, restlessness, conceit and ignorance we must first make a breaktrough to the Dhamma and acquire the right view of the nobel Path. We must first see Nibbana.

Is this true?

Siebe

[sybe07]

craving is, i belief, a kind of energy directed at (creating) a future. Wanting a future. A future of nice tastes, nice smells etc. (kama tanha). Nice states of mind or nice existences (bhava tanha). Or a future without suffering, fed by the idea that one will be released from suffering after death, vibhava tanha. Tanha is about future. It is future oriented.

In this sense, it seems logic that from tanha a future is created, or does involve a future, and implies continuation.

Siebe

[sybe07]

AN9.47 describes the topic of a directly visible Nibbana, i saw.

The sutta explains that Nibbana is seen in a provisional sense (according translation Bodhi) while one is abiding in jhana, in all of them. And Nibbana is directly seen in a non-provisional sense when asava’s end completely, for example, after experiencing sannavedayitanirodha.

I think this support the idea that ‘directly seeing Nibbana’ refers to experiencing the cooling down of the mind due to the temporary or definitive cessation of defilements.

But sometimes it seems Nibbana is something completely different as in Udana 8.1, a sphere where there is no this word or other world, where the big elements cannot establish themselves etc.

This is find confusing.

Siebe

[sybe07]

@Tien,
I cannot comment on your experience Tien because of lack of knowledge but thanks for sharing. When i read such things i find it a quality that one does not fear what happens. This lack of fear is not self-evident.

thanks and wish you the best,
Siebe

[sybe07]

Hi Christian,

I know from experience mind can be like a calm lake, so calm and relaxed, even inhaling and exhaling can end. One can experience a big relief and openess, like any stress or burden is gone. And some time later (anariya) stress and burden come back. Mind can show all this. From pure fear and terror to an enourmous feeling of safety and trust. From heat to cooling down. From greed to any lack of greed. From tanha to any lack of tanha.

Herewith conditions are very important is my own experience. Isolate people, and we all have to fight to stay mentally healthy. Loose your job and you will feel less appreciated and self-assured. Loose your nice relationship or friendships and maybe you will feel stress levels (thapa) automatically increase. Etc.

Our natural and inborn longings and needs for attention, appreciation, love, they cause so much thapa when they are not satisfied.
I know it is for a human being very hard to cool down when those basic needs are not satisfied.

Siebe

[sybe07]

firewns, i am sure i do not understand buddha-dhamma deeply. That’s what i tell all the time. I belief that deeply understanding buddha-dhamma means ones asava’s and tanha have weakened to a certain degree or ended.

I cannot say this is true for me. But i will not say there is no progress at all. Progress is slow and difficult, as it is with persons with much greed, hate and delusion.

I know from experience there is a big difference in understanding buddha-dhamma with intellect and really with ones heart. The first does not lead to release. Somehow it has to become an understanding of the heart.

It is like understanding rationally there is no reason to fear a spider while any time one sees a spider one is overwhelmed with fear automatically. It is like the heart has it’s own understanding. It decides for fear. Unless the heart really understands the spider is really not fearfull it can decide for not-fear.

Siebe

[sybe07]

I am doing all those ‘small’ things for a long time. But thanks for your concern firewns.

I want to share the following :

Buddha-Dhamma is very easy to understand. It is not complicated at all.

This is shown in a very nice way to Sakka in MN37:

“Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painfui-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings, contemplating fading away, contemplating cessation, contemplating relinquishment. Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana” (MN37, translation Bodhi)

Anyone can see this is the Path, anyone can know this is true. Buddha-Dhamma is not complicated and very easy to understand. Nothing is worth adhering to. What does one need to learn more?

It is not difficult to see but also experience that craving is the cause of suffering. Craving makes us helpless. Craving does not help. Craving does not end the emotional hunger. Craving is no solution to health problems, to decay, to death, to suffering. People who suffer bodily and also have strong craving, suffer very much. Craving only makes things worse.

Anyone can see that craving is not helpfull. Craving for the wellbeing of others, craving for perfection, craving for a better world, craving for results, it is not helpfull at all. It is not difficult to see.

But…there is understanding and understanding. That i know for sure.

While the core of buddha-dhamma is so easy to understand , so difficult it is to really realise.

There have been many lives in which craving was our only solution, our only refuge, our only lifebelt, our only way to deal with suffering.
So while we mentally understand the core of buddha-dhamma, in our hearts are views, tendencies, asava’s, anusaya still in conflict with buddha-dhamma. Please accept this as a fact and not as a negative view or attitude.

Our heart still beats on the rhythm of greed, hate and delusion even when we see this rhythm is not productive. That our heart beats on the rhythm of greed, hate and delusion is not a sign that we are doing something wrong. This is just honesty. Our heritage of the past. We can only accept this heritage openly and in honesty and do our best to make progression.

Siebe

[sybe07]

I have many problems, kilesa’s, greed, hate, delusion, fear. Nothing i do not have. But that i am not trying to understand dhamma concepts, that is not true, but oke, maybe it looks this way. By the way, I am not at the Dhamma Wheel forum.

I have read a lot post on citta and cetasika. And many times the same.

Now i am reading about space-element which is said to be unconditioned, always existed. For me this is new. I thought Nibbana is the only unconditioned element.

Now i read about vinnana dhatu and this is said to be infinite too. Is this some kind of field? Is this an always present vinnana? I think this cannot be meant but what is an infinite always existing vinnana dhatu?

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