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Thank you ynot!
This is a bit talking to myself and to you too.
There are five higher fetters which are still there when one is an anagami, not yet an arahant. There is rupa- and arupa raga, there is mana, uddhacca and avijja. I have always understood it this way: when one is an anagami (or lower) those can become active and fetter in that moment the mind, take hold/grasp of the mind. That can manifest in speech and phyiscal ways. One can talk about this proces of becoming fettered as becoming under the sway of Mara.
It was not correct of me to say that we are (all the time) under Mara’s sway untill arahanthood. Thanks for letting me see this. Just like it is not correct to say that we are always under the sway of avijja or tanha.
I think it is better to say, that as long as there exist conditions (such as anusaya) which can give rise to defilements, we can become under the sway of Mara, i.e. when anusaya are triggered.
For example, an anagami has still the mana anusaya. Well, suppose this anusaya becomes triggered and mana manifest itself in the mind. Does a anagami always become immediately aware of it and does he/she abandon that immediately?
I have always understood it this way that an anagami can become fettered by mana. Mana can still take hold of his/her mind. Do i see this wrong?Suppose it is possible, then there is still an influence of that mana on the mind of an anagami. I think we can talk about this as mara’s sway, at that moment.
Siebe
@ynot,
Apparently Mara as-devaputta-Mara does not have that much influence on beings with magga phala, in the sense that he cannot cause, for example, a sotapanna to fall back and not reach enlightment. They are said to be on a fixed course. I have never read (not yet) that a sotapanna can fall back, and loose the Path, due to Mara’s activities.
Mara as-the-personification-of-kilesa (or craving or anusaya or samyojana or asava) will be there until arahanthood. So in that sense we are under Mara’s sway till arahanthood.
What do you think?
Siebe
Hi Donna,
In SN5.2 Mara tries to manipulate the bhikkhuni Soma, a great practioner. He tells her that a woman cannot attain Nibbana! But Soma recognizes Mara and says: “What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily, as one sees correctly into Dhamma”.
In my opinion with any temptation, greed, craving one becomes under the influence of Mara. Also when heavens seem tempting. Mara praises those realms, like bait thrown out for catching fish (SN2.30). Also if one strives for ones non-existence that is Mara’s influence. It is all in the sphere of craving; craving for sensual pleasure, for new existences or even for non-existence.
As long as we have cravings, anusaya, asava, samyojana, causes to be reborn in samsara again, Mara can be said to rule. A sotapanna is not yet free of causes for rebirth. He/she will come in the domain of Mara again. I think Mara’s power is weakened for a Sotapanna but still there.
When one does not see the need to end the causes for rebirth (to end asava, anusaya etc.) that is exactly what Mara wants because then that being will come in his domain again where he is the foremost ruler. It is as if he wants us to be his puppits.
And when one sees the need to end all causes for rebirth, to strive for Nibbana, like the Buddha did, Mara will obstruct such plans because he knows this person strives for the end of Mara’s rulership over him/her.
Siebe
Thanks Lal,
I once made a theme on Mara, but in Dutch. I am going to share some information. Maybe it is useful.
It is said Mara is, just like a Buddha, always a male (MN115).
There is always only 1 Mara in samsara (Milindapanha)Mara is called “the foremost of rulers, blazing with power and glory”. “The foremost of those who exercise authority is Mara the Evil One”. (AN4.15).
Pfff…
In Christian thought God might be seen as the foremost ruler but in the kosmology of the Buddha, apparantly, Mara is seen as the foremost of rulers and those who execise authority. I belief there are Christians sects who also belief a kind of Devil is the ruler of the world and God has withdrawn from his creation.
Mara can also take possession of beings and let them talk in a certain way or do certain things. I can provide sutta references if someone wants them.
Mara also seems to have a certain kind of household or assembly (AN8.69, DN16§3.21 en MN12§29). Texts also speak of mara’s with a small ‘m’. I sometimes wonder (maybe you know this Lal) if these paranimmita-vasavatti deva’s are his household? I have not seen this mentioned in the sutta’s.
In general Mara activities are focussed on keeping being trapped in samsara, his domain, where he is the foremost ruler.
–“Whatever forms exist here or beyond, And those of luminous beauty in the sky, All these, indeed, you praise, Namuci, Like bait thrown out for catching fish.” (the Buddha in SN2.30)
I think one can say that someone aiming at higher rebirth (without seeing the need to reach sotapanna stage) is still under Mara’s influence. Also the celestial bond is Mara’s snare (SN1.50).
Especially sense-pleasures are Mara’s bait and way of catching beings in his net. Moreover, everywhere where there is “me” and “mine” there follows Mara (SN4.24). Mara is often the symbol or metaphor of the deluded or defiled mind. In that way, i belief, only an arahant is not anymore under the authority of Mara, but even a sotapanna still is. As long as avijja and tanha have not totally ceased we are under his spell.
Where there is attachment to the khandha’s we are bounded by Mara (SN22.63).
-“Bhikkhu, in conceiving one is bound by Mara; by not conceiving
one is freed from the Evil One.” (SN22.64).In search for enjoyment in the khandha’s one becomes bounded by Mara (SN22.65)
With wrong view one is under the yoke of Mara (AN4.49).-“Having cut off all underlying tendencies that follow one drifting in Mara’s domain,those who attain the destruction of the taints,
though in the world, have gone beyond“. AN8.29)So i think samsara is Mara’s domain and in samsara he seems to be the ultimate ruler who does not like when beings are trying to free themselves from his authority. He might frighten those who try, seduce them, etc.
Nibbana is not Mara’s domain. Mara can be conquered with wisdom and practicing the noble eightfold path.
This is a very short impression of an exploratory investigation of Mara in the sutta-pitaka i once made.
Siebe
when i contemplate on life and buddha-dhamma sometimes there arises the view that life is not meant to awaken. To awaken and to purify ones mind comes with all kind of obstacles. It is not easy.
It is like nature screams…”stop, you are not meant this way. You are meant to dream, to plan, enjoy like and dislike, have pleasure, enjoy life, create, have fun, make a family etc etc. All kind of purposes but not the purpose to awaken.
To awaken seems the most unnatural thing to strive for and still… there is that longing to find the truth. And there is a sense that beauty is the moral mind, goodness. And the sense that real health is the awakened mind, the Buddha. That can be strong.
I think a lot of ideas about the purpose of life are part of Mara tricks to keep us obsessed with worldly goals in life. To keep us fettered to samsara. Mara is part of ourselves. Mara’s voice will be there constantly when one sets a foot on the Path, is my experience at least.
If this life is created by a God, suppose it is, in my opinion this God was not aiming on the awakening of human beings or other beings God created. God installed a lot of hindrances, as if his aim was that we will function blindly, deluded, defiled. I know, religious people will say this is not Gods aim but the Devils aim. Anyway, i do not belief that in nature wisdom rules, defilements rule, especially tanha and avijja.
Siebe
Many times in my life i have felt their is a certain purpose in what was/is happening. Or afterwards i saw that. For example, one pulls a certain book out of a bookcase with many books and exactly that book has a great impact on your life. Just accidental that you choose that book?
There seems to be a certain guidance too. At least that’s what i think is happening.
Certain things that happen, one feels it is not accidental and one understands immediately, while things are happening, there is a certain purpose in what is happening. A lesson to be learned?
One immediately understands this is not accidental, this meeting, or this accident, or this event. Yes, those moments one feels like nature is talking to you and wants to express something.
The Body gives certain signals, like pain, to tell there can be something going wrong. The Mind also gives certain signals. So information is fundamentel in life.
The text mention the messangers of death, old age, sickness. Who sees this as messengers? Does life have other messengers? Why not? Maybe, for a Buddha life is all about information, all about messages. Every event is a kind of message, information.
What do we experience as a message, as a sign? This is tricky, very tricky, because this is also seen in people with great mental problems. It can be exagerated. I have experienced this myself. In a period of great confusion i saw a green sign as a kind of reward and the red sign of a traffic light as a kind of punishment. I really felt it this way. One will see this is very ego-centric, like everything in life is about me.
This seeing of signs and feeling of purpose can also be out of balance, but i will not concluse there definitely are no signs and no purpose.
Siebe
“However, if you read the rest of the sutta, the Buddha explains to bhikkhu Susima that pannavimutta Arahants get there by just seeing the anicca nature with wisdom”. (Lal)
I also belief this is being described but the sutta does not really teach that all those arahant were not abiding in any jhana. This is not mentioned. Arupavacara jhana is mentioned. It does not really teach that rupavacara jhana is not needed.
Also in MN70 this person, the one liberated by wisdom, is refered to as one who does not abide in arupavacara jhana but again does not mention the non-abiding of rupa vacara jhana.
Is attainment of rupavacara jhana not needed to become an arahant? Based on this sutta fragments i cannot conclude this for sure. I will re-read the post.
Siebe
MN70 describes the 7 kind of persons, the one liberated by wisdom is described as:
- “What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom? Here
some person does not contact with the body and abide in those
liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending
forms, but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.
This kind of person is called one liberated-by-wisdom. I
do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with
diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he
is no more capable of being negligent”.
Siebe
MN64 describes that a young tender infant has allready the five lower fetters as underlying tendencies: sakkaya ditthi, doubts, adherence to rules and observances, sensual desire and ill will.
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhiDo i understand it correctly, Lal, that those anusaya can only be triggered after a certain period when the brain is ripened to a certain degree?
On internet i encounter info that immediately after birth there is allready a certain preference for, for example, sweet tastes. It is also said on internet (dutch sites) that a baby senses with all senses. So when it experiences a taste it can also see certain colours, have smell sensations etc. This seems to show that de brain is not ripened yet to only smell smells, hear sounds etc.
Siebe
Is it true that in the kosmology of the buddha the planetery system of our sun and earth etc. arise also again after a period of destruction of the whole world-system. In other words, does everything only repeat itself? Have there been endless earths?
Siebe
Hi Lal,
My question to you: in a specific situation, do you always know what is the best to do? How to act? What to say, what to do? And not to say, not to do?
Is it Always clear immediately what will be helpful?
If it is, how?
What i am trying to say is that, i belief there are two sides to the instructions of the Buddha to Rahula:
- I can see for myself that impulsive behaviour, based on gati, re-activity, does often (if not always) lead to suffering for oneself and others. It leads to all kind of problems. It is also wise to become more thoughtful about the relation between our own intentions, words and deeds and their results. It is good to be aware of the effects of our own deeds. It is good to be oriented upon ones own welbeing and that of others.
-
Being oriented this way at the same time is a kind of burden. Becoming so concerned with not creating suffering to oneself and others, that itself is a kind of suffering, a burden.
For me it worked out this way that i have become more aware of the effects of my own intentions, words and deeds, and i have become more interested in others welbeing too. My orientation has shifted more to the welbeing of others. I think you can say, otappa has increased too. I think knowledge about kamma has also increased by the instructions taught by the Buddha to Rahula and which i practice.
So i think it has many positive fruits, but at the same time, i feel, being authentic is even more important. If one is authentic there is no way one will do consciously or impulsively any wrong. Any impulsive behaviour is not authentic, it is a re-action mode. For me, this lesson is even more important then the instruction to Rahula, although i really belief those are of great fruit.
This lesson about authenticity is not literally in the Sutta-pitaka but it can be derived from it when one realises that anusaya’s, asava’s, gati’s, are mentioned in the sutta’s because they also relate to a certain kind of behaviour which is of a re-active kind, a habitual kind of behaviour, driven by the force a habit and therefor not realy authentic. In the end, i belief, that is what we have to strive for. That will be the result of buddha-dhamma.
The purity of the arahant and Buddha is at the same time their authenticity and their authenticity is their purity.Siebe
- “What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom? Here
