pannavimutti and jhana

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    • #18343
      sybe07
      Spectator

      This refers to de post:

      Pannāvimutti – Arahanthood without Jhāna

      Under point 3 it is said:
      “In that sutta (SN12.70, Siebe), the Buddha explained to Susima that there are Arahants without any supernormal (iddhi) powers, because they were paññāvimutti Arahants, who did not cultivate jhāna”

      I am not sure about this. In the translations i have read it is said they they did not cultivate ‘the formless attainments’. Aren’t those the attaintments of infinate space, infinate consciousness, nothingness and nor perception nor not perception? Did they not cultivate the first, second and third and fourth jhana?

      Siebe

    • #18345
      sybe07
      Spectator

      MN70 describes the 7 kind of persons, the one liberated by wisdom is described as:

      1. “What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom? Here
        some person does not contact with the body and abide in those
        liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending
        forms, but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.
        This kind of person is called one liberated-by-wisdom. I
        do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with
        diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he
        is no more capable of being negligent”.

      Siebe

    • #18347
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Regarding #3 on the post: You are right. I just revised it to:

      “In that sutta, the Buddha explained to Susima that there are Arahants without any supernormal (iddhi) powers, because they were paññāvimutti Arahants, who did not cultivate arupavacara jhāna.”

      However, if you read the rest of the sutta, the Buddha explains to bhikkhu Susima that pannavimutta Arahants get there by just seeing the anicca nature with wisdom.

    • #18349
      sybe07
      Spectator

      “However, if you read the rest of the sutta, the Buddha explains to bhikkhu Susima that pannavimutta Arahants get there by just seeing the anicca nature with wisdom”. (Lal)

      I also belief this is being described but the sutta does not really teach that all those arahant were not abiding in any jhana. This is not mentioned. Arupavacara jhana is mentioned. It does not really teach that rupavacara jhana is not needed.

      Also in MN70 this person, the one liberated by wisdom, is refered to as one who does not abide in arupavacara jhana but again does not mention the non-abiding of rupa vacara jhana.

      Is attainment of rupavacara jhana not needed to become an arahant? Based on this sutta fragments i cannot conclude this for sure. I will re-read the post.

      Siebe

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