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In #5: ““kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupaṃ, nāmarupa paccayā salāyatanaṃ, salāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā pasādo, pasāda paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā maraṇaṃ. Evametesaṃ dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti.
Lal, in the commentary (Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga) I can not see the part in red, only the following:
“kusalamūlapaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.
Is this pre-vaci sankhara?
I appreciate your comments greatly. Please allow me to reformulate and let me know if I’m making any errors, especially regarding the appropriate use of terminology.
Let me use a practical example and start from the basics:
It’s evening time, 8:40 pm, and I check the time by briefly looking at the clock on the wall. There is no upādāna involved. The rupa rupa, or vanna rupa, is perceived by the eye, then processed by the visual cortex in the brain. The visual cortex processes it to an image that the cakkhu pasāda rupa can receive and transmits the corresponding imprint to the hadaya vatthu resulting in the arising of vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa. Numerous citta vithi arise and a record (or records) gets transmitted to the viññāṇa dhatu/nama loka/mental plane (however you wish to call it) via the mana indriya.
There’s no actual “rupa” now in the viññāṇa dhatu. It’s a record of vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa without energy.
A day later, friend X calls me and asks if I remember what time we spoke on the phone the day before. As I recall our conversation, I remember just before we talked I briefly looked at the clock. I’m trying to recall what time it was exactly. What happens then is that a signal (technically signals) gets sent to the viññāṇa dhatu. The record itself has no energy. It is the mind that acts as “flashlight” to create the necessary energy to pull the memory back to the mind. Now that mental impression gets energized to some extent and becomes dhammā. These dhammā are what the mind can receive (via mana indriya). when it receives it, vedana, sañña, sankhara, and viññana will automatically arise. Without this rupa, no vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa can arise. It’s a mechanical process we can’t control. Any rupa that is received WILL result in the arising of vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa. Anyway, many citta vithi arise and an image forms in my mind that it was 8:40 pm. The rupa that came back to the mind must now be part of the rupakkhanda.
Now, something else also happens.
During our conversation the day prior, friend X complained to me about friend Y. I didn’t like that and generated some aversion in my mind. In other words, there was upādāna involved. In other words, a record was also sent to the viññāṇa dhatu, but this time around it was energized due to the apuñña abhisaṅkhāra that I generated because of pathiga.
That memory also comes to the mind during the talk but involuntarily. Simply talking to my friend is a cause/condition for that memory to come to the mind which by itself manifests as an effect. That effect manifests as follows: I don’t actively recall it. It comes to the mind by itself as dhammā. It was already energized enough (lit up enough just like the candle analogy given). The mind is receptive since one of the the other necessary causes/conditions for the dhammā to come, patigha, is present in the hadaya vatthu. So the dhammā are the rupa that allow for the corresponding vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa to arise. In this case, these dhammā must be part of the rupūpādānakkhandhā.;
If I have gotten the terminology wrong somewhere, please tell me.Regarding energy-less records (namagotta) and dhammā (kamma bīja) and the analogy provided by Lal of the flashlight and candle respectively, the following came to mind:;
Let’s say you have a phone with various apps. Some apps give you a notification. You don’t know when these notifications come in. You can’t control them in any way. Although they don’t come in randomly, they seem to do so, nevertheless. Of course, when we look at the causes, the app is programmed to send out certain notifications at certain times, it’s not random. In case of an email, it depends on the person who sends you.;
These notifications are comparable to dhammā (kamma bīja). They come in whenever the causes are present and the conditions are right, whether you like it or not.On the other hand, there are the namagotta that have to be recalled by sending out a signal first. We could perhaps compare this by an app of which notifications are switched off. Now, we’ll never really know what’s going on, unless we proactively look inside the app to find the information we’re looking for. We have to “put in energy” to retrieve that information which is comparable to “sending out a signal.”
Does this analogy make sense? (Assuming you only apply it to the retrieval part and not to the time that the memory was “created”).
Theruwan Saranayi.
What I remember is that he says it is this “upadana” that should not be given up. It would be like rowing a boat and suddenly throwing away the paddles before having reached the shore. That would be unwise. Only when one fully reaches the shore (become an arahant) one lets go. What we first need to give up is the upadana for apunna abhisankhara.
I appreciate the comments!
I’m taking my time to analyze it and writing up an example so that I’m sure I get it. It might take a day or two depending on my time table the coming days before I post.
Theruwan Saranayi
Thanks for the responses. The link starts at the 1-minute mark. Then Waharaka Thero starts talking about it, going through the PS steps.
Regarding rupakkhanda, I’ve been reading through the comments and the links. I find that I’m not completely clear on the following.
I know that Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is an energy-less record. Simply a mental impression of whatever rupa encountered (past, present, and future).
There are two types of things in the mental plane or nāmalōka: dhammā with kammic energy and namagotta without energy.
Now, to quote from the post from #6:-
That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.
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The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates. Nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates. Even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we recall them.
Nāmalōka actually contains records of all the aggregates. However, they can come to the mind only as dhammā, the sixth external ayatana. Here is where there’s gap for me: Where does rupupadanakkhanda fit in? That has embedded energy already. But a namagotta (that includes rupakkhanda) has no energy. How is that not part of dhammā then (which contains energy)? I’m sure I’m missing some finer details, so I’d appreciate any explanation that allows me to comprehend it better.
I’ve been reflecting on kamma and vipaka the last few days. I think it might be a relevant topic here regarding the viññana dhatu.
I was talking to a friend to other day about Buddha Dhamma, in person. When I’m around him, a lot more Dhamma flows in comparison to most other people I meet. A big part of it is due to his merits. You could say because you’re talking face-to-face, the conditions are in favor of that to happen. Well, yes surely it’s a favorable condition. However, after we parted ways, those merits are still working aren’t they. It doesn’t matter if we are in the same country or not. Often we have been on opposite sides of the world and that doesn’t change anything. If we had the technology, we could be on opposite sides of the universe and it wouldn’t change anything.
Also, everybody knows how it feels how “all of a sudden” they have to think of a certain person and, for example, share something with them that they might find useful. And then it appears that they were just looking for it. Of course, that’s no coincidence. Again the result of merits (from the mental plane).
Of course, kamma and vipaka goes much deeper, and i oversimplify things, but it might perhaps add to the explanations given already.
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Thank you, Lal. I was referring to the sounds of the words. You wrote attā with a long “a,” followed by anatta with a long “a.” i thought only the ā had the long sound, so I thought you meant to say “anatta with a short a.”
A) #3 “Defilements at an intense level are lobha, dosa, and moha. Those reduce to rāga, paṭigha, and avijjā with the dispelling of the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi.”
Shouldn’t it be that the reduction to raga, patigha, and avijja occurs when one starts comprehending tilakkhana, i.e., enter the lokotarra noble eighfold path/become sotapanna (anugami)? So only after removing the deeper miccha ditthi which can happen only after one first removes the ten types of miccha ditthi
B) At the bottom of the page I noticed this (see bolded parts): “Those two realizations involve two types of atta. Sakkāya diṭṭhi involves “attā” (with a long “a”), and anatta in Tilakkhana involves atta (with a long “a.”)”
“1. Sobhana and asobhana cetasika (i.e., punnabhisankhara and apunnabhisankhara) cannot arise in the same citta that arises in a billionth of a second.
2. However, during some kamma, billions of citta vithi with different cetasika can arise…”
Just to clarify, one pancadvara citta vitthi + the three following manodvara citta vitthi all contain only sobhana or asobhana, right?
Thank you for bringing up this topic and the added comments. It’s always good to have some more analogies ready so that others would be more able to understand the true nature of pleasure/assada.
I’ve checked some of @DanielSt ‘s articles on his website. It contains some transcriptions of Amadassana Thero’s sermons; a few post translations from puredhamma.net; a translated transcript from a Waharaka Thero sermon; and some articles he’s written himself. (I hope I summarized that accurately).
Although German is not my native tongue, I can understand most of it. It is good enough to see that Daniel’s own descriptions of anicca and sankhara dukkha, viparinama dukkha and dukkha dukkha are described very clearly with plenty of examples. The diagram at the bottom of this page is very useful I must say. It immediately provides a brief overview of the anicca nature and the three types of dukkha.
For anyone who can understand German, it’s worth the read!
I think it also helps to understand why they find themselves in that situation in the first place:
because of kamma previously committed.
That’s why it’s so essential for people to do merits and gain a more favorable (future) environment that’s conducive towards the path.
For that reason alone we should be mindful of our interactions with others even if we are not in a position to share Dhamma. It could be because others are not open to listening or perhaps because the situation doesn’t allow (for) it.
For instance, I regularly work with young kids in everyday life. I always try and create time for them to do something meritorious, even if it’s just, let’s say, a drawing activity. For example, they recall a good deed that they’ve done and then draw it out. Then they will be reminded the whole time of that good deed. I have no control over what happens when they are at home, but I can at least encourage them to think/speak/act meritoriously while they are around me. All little things add up.
Around adults, conversations can sometimes be steered in a more favorable direction as to provoke more wholesome thinking and speech.
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@LayDhammaFollower, Thank you for your reminder and sorry for my late reply!
I just returned home yesterday. I had stayed with my family in Holland the last few months, but my wife and I actually live in China.
We were very busy in our preparation and did not have time for much else.Looking at what has to be done over the next few days, I expect to be able to finish the file early next week.
With metta,
Jorg
Thank you for your suggestion, Lal. I will look at it again, make necessary adjustments, and/or perhaps split it up and create clearer matching titles. I explained the actual sankharas elsewhere, so I need to match it accordingly.
I have had mixed experiences regarding the sharing of dhamma to others. Some very positive that I really feel they’re getting close whereas with others I seem to hit a “dead end.” However, even some of the “dead-end cases,” I’ve noticed a few unexpected little moments of silence where something seemed to stick. At least briefly.
However, the other day I realised that I was offered help countless times (in similar ways) throughout samsara and I surely had a strong miccha ditthi. Perhaps I was rude and insulting as well and, shamefully so, who knows what else. I’m extremely grateful for all those moments of help I received, even though they may have seemed to lead absolutely nowhere at those times. I see it as a giant puzzle now. Even if words of pure dhamma seem to completely “miss” their mark, each of them are still a valuable piece of the puzzle. Piece by piece, at some point the puzzle takes shape and it will start to be clear what image is being laid out (getting on the noble path), and one day it will be complete (Arahanthood). We just can’t see how big the puzzle is, how many pieces have been laid so far, and how long it’s going to take until it’s finished.
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