[Jorg]

Thank you and apologies for not picking the most appropriate forum.

I can find the samma sati quote, but I can’t find the “cittanupassana is not recommended to be practiced by one who doesn’t comprehend dhamma.” I have tried looking (also in the links you provided) for it but no no avail. He did say that right?

I’m not completely sure whether I’ve read it on the site or elsewhere.

[Jorg]

Thank you Lal and thank you Lang for the reference. I’m lucky that Lal has already revised it :D

[Jorg]

Thanks a million Lal, this was very illuminating! I can’t express my gratitude enough.

One final thought here from the verse you translated, “‘Atthi cittan’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati,”
does the bolded part mean, “When the particular (kaya/citta/vedana/dhamma) anupassana is cultivated….”? Paccupatthi is to cultivate?

[Jorg]

Thanks Lal and Gem, I haven’t seen some of that. It’s always great to be able to broaden your understanding, looking at things from different angles.
I’ll be sure to through these links.

[Jorg]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Lal.
So how would you rate the translation of the other part of that second verse (in italics)?

Sukhajīvino pure āsuṁ,
bhikkhū gotamasāvakā;
Anicchā piṇḍamesanā,
anicchā sayanāsanaṁ;
Loke aniccataṁ ñatvā,
dukkhassantaṁ akaṁsu te.

With my knowledge of Pali, I’m only able to detract the meaning from “Loke aniccam natva,”
which I assume means “knowing that nothing in this world can be kept to one’s satisfaction…”

[Jorg]

“In this post, we will discuss how “20 types of sakkāya diṭṭhi” is reached by getting rid of 5 types of wrong views on the five aggregates based on ucchēda diṭṭhi and 15 types of wrong views on the five aggregates based on sassata diṭṭhi.”

Hi Lal, fairly recently you corrected a post regarding the 20 types of sakkaya ditthi, stating that the above statement from “sakkaya-ditthi-deeper-wrong-views” #2, is correct.

I realize that the reference you made in your reply of feb 2 2021 above (of Ven. Dhammadinna teaching her ex-husband Cūḷavedalla Sutta MN 44) is from last year and from before you applied the corrections. So can I assume then that the correct translation of that verse is also 15 + 5 instead of 16 + 4 and, therefore, consistent?

To some of the other posters, I understand that English may not be your mother tongue, so therefore it would help if you structure your text a bit more clearly: make shorter sentences, add paragraphs, and above all, apply more punctuation. There’s clearly some value to many of the posts here, and I’ve read them all with great interest. It’s a shame if your meaning doesn’t come across the way you intend it (unnecessarily).

[Jorg]

I shouldn’t use words such as “misleading” since that might imply intentionality. I’m sure everyone has/had good intentions with this, just like I’m sure Buddhagosa had at the time.

[Jorg]

Thank you very much for the link.
I count about 79 nañas, but I copied and listed only the first 14. Then, I highlighted the 16 nañas corresponding with the ones in the Visuddhimagga.
Interestingly, some lines in the Patisambhidamagga (each ending with a full stop, and representing 1 naña as far as I can see) seem to contain multiple nañas (or mentions thereof) listed in the Visuddhimagga.

Three nañas listed in Visuddhimagga, #1 (Namarupa pariccheda ñana), #8 (Nibbida ñana), and #12 (Anuloma ñana) I can’t seem to locate anywhere.

Based on the number of ñanas, missing ñanas, and the order presented in the Visuddhimagga, the statement that the 16 stages of insight are found in the Patisambhidamagga, seems a bit misleading or, at least, inconsistent. If somebody can correct me, please do. I don’t simply want to critique for the sake of critiquing.

I just think it would be helpful to understand how this part of the Visuddhimagga came to be since it is so widely used. If there are inconsistencies, they should be pointed out similar to kasina and breath-related meditations.

Here are the first 14 (out of 79 or so) ñanas as listed in the link Lal provided from Patisambhidamagga of which the ñanas in the Visuddhimagga are bolded:

1. Sotāvadhāne paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṁ.
2. Sutvāna saṁvare paññā sīlamaye ñāṇaṁ.
3. Saṁvaritvā samādahane paññā samādhibhāvanāmaye ñāṇaṁ.
4. Paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ.
5. Atītānāgatapaccuppannānaṁ dhammānaṁ saṅkhipitvā vavatthāne
paññā sammasane ñāṇaṁ.
6. Paccuppannānaṁ dhammānaṁ vipariṇāmānupassane paññā
udayabbayānupassane ñāṇaṁ.
7. Ārammaṇaṁ paṭisaṅkhā bhaṅgānupassane paññā vipassane ñāṇaṁ.
8. Bhayatupaṭṭhāne paññā ādīnave ñāṇaṁ.
9. Muñcitukamyatā paṭisaṅkhāsan tiṭṭhanā paññā saṅkhārupekkhāsu ñāṇaṁ.
10. Bahiddhā vuṭṭhānavivaṭṭane paññā gotrabhuñāṇaṁ.
11. Dubhato vuṭṭhānavivaṭṭane paññā magge ñāṇaṁ.
12. Payogappaṭippassaddhi paññā phale ñāṇaṁ.
13. Chinnavaṭumānupassane paññā vimuttiñāṇaṁ.
14. Tadā samudāgate dhamme passane paññā paccavekkhaṇe ñāṇaṁ.

[Jorg]

All right, makes sense. Thank you!

[Jorg]

Thanks, Lal.
Yes, that article is indeed confusing. I was mostly interested in the stages of insight because meditation techniques where sensations are observed are — as far as I understand from my research — based upon these 16 stages.
Besides breath and kasina, these 16 stages are then perhaps also a mixture of Buddha’s teachings and Vedic teachings, I conclude.

EDIT: I just stumbled across this:
“…the sixteen stages of knowledge are found in the Patisambhidamagga. – yuttadhammo”

So are these 16 stages in the Patisambhidamagga then?

[Jorg]

This is a very inspiring post! I had no idea about these details.

[Jorg]

Is the 7 day-timeline based on that verse alone, or are there other suttā that also explain the matter? Or have some nuances been mistranslated?
That English translation is open to interpretation. It might as well have been 5 days, or 3 weeks since the king was on his death bed already.

[Jorg]

Great Lal, thanks for your valuable efforts.
I will keep that in mind!

[Jorg]

Appreciate your input!

– I will write a few posts on the correct interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta. We can discuss those posts.

Looking forward to that.

[Jorg]

Thanks for your detailed response again, Lal. That’s very helpful. It actually led me to a deeper understanding of jhana samapatti.

Ajahn Brahm is from the Thai Forest tradition and this is how he was taught by Ajahn Chah. So it’s not just him. Many Theravidians know of this technique. He describes the step-by-step process in his book I linked to above. The stopping of the breath in the 4th jhana is also clearly stated, which coincides with what I’ve read from the posts here. When they come out of the meditation they can recall what happened. Just not during the meditation. I wonder if that would be possible if it’s a kind of asañña samadhi.

[Author]

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