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Salāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties
#6. As in the case of the five aggregates, the twelve āyatana are categorized as past, present, and paccuppanna (“present”), as pointed out above.
That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha. <br />
The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates. Nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates. Even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we recall them.–
I think that the extension of pancakkhandha is different from the extension of salayatana.
Because cakkayatana is cakkhu pasada rupa, which is made of apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi.
Buddhist Worldview – Introduction
12. The Āyatanavibhaṅga provides details on the twelve āyatana. For example: “Tattha katamaṃ cakkhāyatanaṃ? Yaṃ cakkhu catunnaṃ mahābhūtānaṃ upādāya pasādo attabhāvapariyāpanno anidassano sappaṭigho, yena cakkhunā anidassanena sappaṭighena rūpaṃ sanidassanaṃ sappaṭighaṃ passi vā passati vā passissati vā passe vā, cakkhumpetaṃ cakkhāyatanampetaṃ cakkhudhātupesā cakkhundriyampetaṃ lokopeso dvārāpesā samuddopeso paṇḍarampetaṃ khettampetaṃ vatthumpetaṃ nettampetaṃ nayaṃampetaṃ orimaṃ tīrampetaṃ suñño gāmopeso. Idaṃ vuccati “cakkhāyatanaṃ.”
Translated: “What is cakkhāyatana? It is that cakkhu pasāda derived from the four great elements. It is invisible (anidassano), makes contact (sappaṭighena) with visible (object).”
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Pancakkhandha is all mental impression in vinnana dhatu. There is no satara mahabhuta in pancakkhandha. Therefore, there is a contradiction here.
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“I think that the extension of pancakkhandha is different from the extension of salayatana.”
No contradiction. I just revised #12 of the post, “Buddhist Worldview – Introduction” as follows to make it clear.
12. The “Āyatanavibhaṅga” provides details on the twelve āyatana. For example: “Tattha katamaṃ cakkhāyatanaṃ? Yaṃ cakkhu catunnaṃ mahābhūtānaṃ upādāya pasādo attabhāvapariyāpanno anidassano sappaṭigho, yena cakkhunā anidassanena sappaṭighena rūpaṃ sanidassanaṃ sappaṭighaṃ passi vā passati vā passissati vā passe vā, cakkhumpetaṃ cakkhāyatanampetaṃ cakkhudhātupesā cakkhundriyampetaṃ lokopeso dvārāpesā samuddopeso paṇḍarampetaṃ khettampetaṃ vatthumpetaṃ nettampetaṃ nayaṃampetaṃ orimaṃ tīrampetaṃ suñño gāmopeso. Idaṃ vuccati “cakkhāyatanaṃ.”
Translated: “What is cakkhāyatana? It is that cakkhu pasāda derived from the four great elements. It is invisible (anidassano), makes contact (sappaṭighena) with visible (object).” (Only partially correct translation at Sutta Central: “Analysis Of The Sense-bases.”) But all such cakkhu pasāda ever experienced, to be experienced, or now being experienced is included.
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But that does not answer that “cakkayatana is cakkhu pasada rupa made of apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi“. If something is made of satara mahabhuta, it can not be in vinnana dhatu. And pancakkhandha are all in vinnana dhatu. Therefore, there is a possibility that the ‘cakkhu pasāda’ in the ayatanavibhanga is not referring to the pasada rupa of kammaja kaya. Or maybe I’m completely mistaken.
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Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha
8. Now, we can see the main difference between physical rūpa and rūpakkhandha.
A physical rūpa is either of the following two kinds. A solid object that one sees with one ‘s eyes or touches with one’s body (a person, a person’s body or a body part, a tree, a planet, a star, etc.) Those are what we usually call “solid objects.” Then, other sensory inputs come through the other three sense doors (smells, tastes, or sounds).
Rūpakkhandha has MENTAL IMPRESSIONS of all external rūpā that one has EXPERIENCED. Rūpakkhandha is NOT tangible or has any energy in them. One’s rūpakkhandha is INFINITE. It has records of ALL one has seen in ALL past lives going back and back in time without “an actual beginning.”+)
Tattha katamaṁ rūpāyatanaṁ? Yaṁ rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ nīlaṁ pītakaṁ lohitakaṁ odātaṁ kāḷakaṁ mañjiṭṭhakaṁ hari harivaṇṇaṁ ambaṅkuravaṇṇaṁ dīghaṁ rassaṁ aṇuṁ thūlaṁ vaṭṭaṁ parimaṇḍalaṁ caturassaṁ chaḷaṁsaṁ aṭṭhaṁsaṁ soḷasaṁsaṁ ninnaṁ thalaṁ chāyā ātapo āloko andhakāro abbhā mahikā dhūmo rajo candamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā sūriyamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā tārakarūpānaṁ vaṇṇanibhā ādāsamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā maṇisaṅkhamuttaveḷuriyassa vaṇṇanibhā jātarūparajatassa vaṇṇanibhā, yaṁ vā panaññampi atthi rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ, yaṁ rūpaṁ sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ cakkhunā anidassanena sappaṭighena passi vā passati vā passissati vā passe vā, rūpampetaṁ rūpāyatanampetaṁ rūpadhātupesā.
So rūpāyatana is not in vinnana dhatu.
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I’m going to organize what I understand.
There are three kinds of information in the samsara.
First type: Information made by suddhāṭṭhaka; apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi.
Second type: Information about F-information, which is vipaka vinnana.
Third type: The information by mind creation, which is dhammā.
The Paticca Samuppada process describes the flow of circulating these three types of information.
We accept information of type F in the form of type S. (Vipaka vinnana)
If it is matched our sangati, ‘tanha paccaya upadana’ and ‘upadana paccaya bhava’ run.
Therefore, information of type T(dhammā) will be created by the mind.
And information of type T is turned into type F. (creation of new manomaya kaya)
F->S is a mechanical and automatic process. In this case, we have no choice. It also happens in the case of Arahant.<br />
But S->T is different. We can make a choice. We have the power not to upadana. Arahant makes no information of type T with san.
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Ayatana is a way of explaining the defiled F->S process. Ayatana is influenced by sangati. Accumulation of sangati occurs at the S->T process. If there is no san(arahant), there is no ayatana.
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To sum up, I’d like to hear why living arahant does not have salayatana, but pancakkhandha. If the extension of salayatana is the same as the extension of pancakkhandha, it can not happen.
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Perhaps Internal āyatana in RūpakKhanda refers to mental impression of those āyatana, Rather than physical āyatana themselves.
For example, Humans holds eye, ear, tongue etc as dear to them and hold them close.
RūpakKhanda also has past and future āyatana mental impressions.
Let’s say a person become blind at some point in his life, If he is not arhant then at cuti-paṭisandhi he will grasp a bhava similar to PañcaUpādānakKhanda. He might have desire to have future sense faculties just like he had in past before becoming blind.
p.s. I am not sure if there is difference between āyatana and Saḷāyatana, Is there?
I am clear on differences between six Indriya and twelve āyatana. (Indirya becomes āyatana under influence of taṇhā/avijjā.)
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A) #3 “Defilements at an intense level are lobha, dosa, and moha. Those reduce to rāga, paṭigha, and avijjā with the dispelling of the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi.”
Shouldn’t it be that the reduction to raga, patigha, and avijja occurs when one starts comprehending tilakkhana, i.e., enter the lokotarra noble eighfold path/become sotapanna (anugami)? So only after removing the deeper miccha ditthi which can happen only after one first removes the ten types of miccha ditthi
B) At the bottom of the page I noticed this (see bolded parts): “Those two realizations involve two types of atta. Sakkāya diṭṭhi involves “attā” (with a long “a”), and anatta in Tilakkhana involves atta (with a long “a.”)”
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Dosakkhayo wrote: “But that does not answer that “cakkayatana is cakkhu pasada rupa made of apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi“.”
You also quoted:
Tattha katamaṁ rūpāyatanaṁ? Yaṁ rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ nīlaṁ pītakaṁ lohitakaṁ odātaṁ kāḷakaṁ mañjiṭṭhakaṁ hari harivaṇṇaṁ ambaṅkuravaṇṇaṁ dīghaṁ rassaṁ aṇuṁ thūlaṁ vaṭṭaṁ parimaṇḍalaṁ caturassaṁ chaḷaṁsaṁ aṭṭhaṁsaṁ soḷasaṁsaṁ ninnaṁ thalaṁ chāyā ātapo āloko andhakāro abbhā mahikā dhūmo rajo candamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā sūriyamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā tārakarūpānaṁ vaṇṇanibhā ādāsamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā maṇisaṅkhamuttaveḷuriyassa vaṇṇanibhā jātarūparajatassa vaṇṇanibhā, yaṁ vā panaññampi atthi rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ, yaṁ rūpaṁ sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ cakkhunā anidassanena sappaṭighena passi vā passati vā passissati vā passe vā, rūpampetaṁ rūpāyatanampetaṁ rūpadhātupesā.
Just like I pointed out earlier regarding ayatana, “..rupa ever experienced, to be experienced, or now being experienced” is included in rūpāyatana.
Please read the new post “Salāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties ” carefully.
- There are over 250 suttas in the “Saḷāyatana Vagga” in Saṁyutta Nikāya (starting with SN 35.1.)
- I have selected a few suttas to point out the main points.
- As pointed out in #5, the Sabba sutta (SN 35. 23) clearly states that the 12 āyatana encompasses the “all in this world.”
- Yes. Rupā are made of the four great elements. But as soon as we see, hear, etc., they become “atita rupa” and are included in the rupakkhandha (as nāmagotta.)
LDM wrote: “Perhaps Internal āyatana in RūpakKhanda refers to mental impression of those āyatana, Rather than physical āyatana themselves.”
- Not perhaps. They are.
LDM asked: “I am not sure if there is difference between āyatana and Saḷāyatana, Is there?”
- No difference.
Jorg wrote:
A) #3 “Defilements at an intense level are lobha, dosa, and moha. Those reduce to rāga, paṭigha, and avijjā with the dispelling of the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi.”
Shouldn’t it be that the reduction to raga, patigha, and avijja occurs when one starts comprehending tilakkhana, i.e., enter the lokotarra noble eighfold path/become sotapanna (anugami)? So only after removing the deeper miccha ditthi which can happen only after one first removes the ten types of miccha ditthi
- Yes. That is correct. What I meant to say was one cannot become a Sotapanna Anugami until the removes the ten types of miccha ditthi.
“B) At the bottom of the page I noticed this (see bolded parts): “Those two realizations involve two types of atta. Sakkāya diṭṭhi involves “attā” (with a long “a”), and anatta in Tilakkhana involves atta (with a long “a.”)”
- Yes. One must understand that to see that anatta is not about a “self” or “me.” Anatta is a characteristic of everything in this world. The Buddha described “everything in this world (sabba)” in different ways: five aggregates, 12 āyatana, six dhātus. They all have the “anatta nature.”
- It is sakkāya diṭṭhi that involves a “self” or “me.”
- That is what I tried to point out in #13, and #14 in the new post.
Again, there is a lot of information packed in that new post. Take the time to read the links too. These concepts have been hidden since the rise of the Mahayana, which led to the contamination of Theravada too. Philosophers like Nagarjuna and Buddhaghosa played critical roles in that. Many Theravadins still use Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga instead of the Tipitaka! Furthermore, they are now translating the Tipitaka according to the Visuddhimagga and other Mahayana concepts.
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OK. Whether “anatta” or “anattā” they both refer to the “anatta nature.” The opposite of that is “atta nature.” Only the Nibbana is of “atta nature.” Everything in this world has no value, no essence, and that is the “anatta nature.”
- However, when “attā” is used to indicate a “self”/ “person” /”me,” there is no opposite “anattā” for that case. This usage appears in suttas that address sakkaya ditthi. See, for example, “Etaṁmama Sutta (SN 22.151).”: “‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassatī”ti? OR “Does someone regard things like this: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self/essence/soul’?”
- Nothing in this world can be taken as “mine.” Everything arises via causes and conditions (hetu/phala) as shown in Paticca Samuppada (i.e., no “soul type entity.”) In other words, regardless of who starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara” ends up in a bhava/jati corresponding to the (abhi)sankhara generated!
These concepts have been mixed up. It takes an effort to sort them out.
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Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties
#2
Since internal āyatana takes into account all past, present, and future (perceived) sense faculties, our current sense faculties are only a minute fraction of the category of “internal āyatana.”
#7
In the section “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha),” we discussed the fact that we get attached to only a fraction of the five aggregates (things in this world.)
In this “analysis in terms of the twelve āyatana,” we can see that we attach to the same pañca upādānakkhandā (pañcupādānakkhandā.)
We attach to all six internal āyatana. That happens for all average humans who view/perceive all internal sense faculties as “mine.” As we discussed, that view is sakkāya diṭṭhi.
However, we attach to only a fraction of external āyatana. For example, we attach only to a fraction of external rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and phottabba.
With the above background, we can now discuss some critical facts.–
OK. Now I got it. There is no contradiction. I don’t know why I missed these sentences. This post is wonderful! I am deeply indebted to lal for all your help.
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Regarding rupakkhanda, I’ve been reading through the comments and the links. I find that I’m not completely clear on the following.
I know that Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is an energy-less record. Simply a mental impression of whatever rupa encountered (past, present, and future).
There are two types of things in the mental plane or nāmalōka: dhammā with kammic energy and namagotta without energy.
Now, to quote from the post from #6:-
That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.
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The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates. Nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates. Even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we recall them.
Nāmalōka actually contains records of all the aggregates. However, they can come to the mind only as dhammā, the sixth external ayatana. Here is where there’s gap for me: Where does rupupadanakkhanda fit in? That has embedded energy already. But a namagotta (that includes rupakkhanda) has no energy. How is that not part of dhammā then (which contains energy)? I’m sure I’m missing some finer details, so I’d appreciate any explanation that allows me to comprehend it better.
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I assume you are asking about how non-energised dhamma are converted to energised dhammā in mind and where is RūpakKhanda. If so, This is explanation.
The mystery is in mechanism of recalling memory.
RūpakKhanda is not stored, it is generated as needed from other four aggregates.
When memory is recalled, RūpakKhanda is regenerated from four aggregates stored in kamma bhava.
And this process of recalling involves energy. So, that is why dhamma comes to mind as dhammā.
p.s.
Kamma bhava = viññāṇa dhatu = non-energised-permanenet mental aggregates (four components of PañcakKhanda other than RūpakKhanda) + energised kamma bīja/kamma viññāṇa
You can view summary of this whole topic (aggregates, dhatu, four ultimate realities, PañcakKhanda, memory, kamma etc) in table format in pdf file shared in following reply on forum.
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Yes. The question by Jorg gets to the heart of the issue of recalling a memory.
- That is emphasized by LDM: “The mystery is in mechanism of recalling memory.”
I am happy to hear those comments. I tried to give the clues in #6 of the recent post “Salāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties.”
- The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates. Nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates. Even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we recall them. I have explained that in the forum (but I should write a post to explain it fully.) See comment #40356 (on September 14, 2022, at 2:42 pm) in the thread “Post on ‘Nāmagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)’
The following is the content in that comment #40356:
1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record without any energy.
2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.
– namagotta CAN NOT come back on their own. If we want to recall something, we must try to recall that particular memory. That requires a bit more explanation. I will try to explain it simply because it is crucial to understand.3. How do we recall memories?
– When we try to recall a past event, the mind SENDS OUT a request to nāmalōka or viññāṇa dhātu.
– Depending on the strength of that “signal” sent out, it MAY reflect that particular memory back to the mind. If the strength is enough, it is captured by the mind via “mananca paticca dhammeca uppajjati mano vinnanam.” Thus, it comes back as a dhammā because it gained energy from the signal that the mind sent out.
– Let me give an analogy.Suppose we enter a dark room in a dark house with a chair sitting in a corner. We cannot see the chair or anything else in that room. That is the analogy of a namagotta that we are trying to recall.
– Now, if we had a flashlight, we could turn it on and direct it to the chair. Now, that light will bounce back from the chair, and we will be able to see it.
– That light beam from the flashlight is analogous to the “mind signal” sent out to nāmalōka in #3 above.Suppose we enter the same dark room where a small lighted candle is sitting in a corner.
– We can see that lighted candle without the aid of a flashlight.
– Light from the candle itself is enough for us to see it.
– That lighted candle is like dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own (see #2)*******
Is that clear? Please feel to ask questions. Understanding this will help immensely.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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I appreciate your comments greatly. Please allow me to reformulate and let me know if I’m making any errors, especially regarding the appropriate use of terminology.
Let me use a practical example and start from the basics:
It’s evening time, 8:40 pm, and I check the time by briefly looking at the clock on the wall. There is no upādāna involved. The rupa rupa, or vanna rupa, is perceived by the eye, then processed by the visual cortex in the brain. The visual cortex processes it to an image that the cakkhu pasāda rupa can receive and transmits the corresponding imprint to the hadaya vatthu resulting in the arising of vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa. Numerous citta vithi arise and a record (or records) gets transmitted to the viññāṇa dhatu/nama loka/mental plane (however you wish to call it) via the mana indriya.
There’s no actual “rupa” now in the viññāṇa dhatu. It’s a record of vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa without energy.
A day later, friend X calls me and asks if I remember what time we spoke on the phone the day before. As I recall our conversation, I remember just before we talked I briefly looked at the clock. I’m trying to recall what time it was exactly. What happens then is that a signal (technically signals) gets sent to the viññāṇa dhatu. The record itself has no energy. It is the mind that acts as “flashlight” to create the necessary energy to pull the memory back to the mind. Now that mental impression gets energized to some extent and becomes dhammā. These dhammā are what the mind can receive (via mana indriya). when it receives it, vedana, sañña, sankhara, and viññana will automatically arise. Without this rupa, no vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa can arise. It’s a mechanical process we can’t control. Any rupa that is received WILL result in the arising of vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa. Anyway, many citta vithi arise and an image forms in my mind that it was 8:40 pm. The rupa that came back to the mind must now be part of the rupakkhanda.
Now, something else also happens.
During our conversation the day prior, friend X complained to me about friend Y. I didn’t like that and generated some aversion in my mind. In other words, there was upādāna involved. In other words, a record was also sent to the viññāṇa dhatu, but this time around it was energized due to the apuñña abhisaṅkhāra that I generated because of pathiga.
That memory also comes to the mind during the talk but involuntarily. Simply talking to my friend is a cause/condition for that memory to come to the mind which by itself manifests as an effect. That effect manifests as follows: I don’t actively recall it. It comes to the mind by itself as dhammā. It was already energized enough (lit up enough just like the candle analogy given). The mind is receptive since one of the the other necessary causes/conditions for the dhammā to come, patigha, is present in the hadaya vatthu. So the dhammā are the rupa that allow for the corresponding vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa to arise. In this case, these dhammā must be part of the rupūpādānakkhandhā.;
If I have gotten the terminology wrong somewhere, please tell me.Regarding energy-less records (namagotta) and dhammā (kamma bīja) and the analogy provided by Lal of the flashlight and candle respectively, the following came to mind:;
Let’s say you have a phone with various apps. Some apps give you a notification. You don’t know when these notifications come in. You can’t control them in any way. Although they don’t come in randomly, they seem to do so, nevertheless. Of course, when we look at the causes, the app is programmed to send out certain notifications at certain times, it’s not random. In case of an email, it depends on the person who sends you.;
These notifications are comparable to dhammā (kamma bīja). They come in whenever the causes are present and the conditions are right, whether you like it or not.On the other hand, there are the namagotta that have to be recalled by sending out a signal first. We could perhaps compare this by an app of which notifications are switched off. Now, we’ll never really know what’s going on, unless we proactively look inside the app to find the information we’re looking for. We have to “put in energy” to retrieve that information which is comparable to “sending out a signal.”
Does this analogy make sense? (Assuming you only apply it to the retrieval part and not to the time that the memory was “created”).
Theruwan Saranayi.
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Excellent, Jorg. You understood!
You wrote: “There’s no actual “rupa” now in the viññāṇa dhatu. It’s a record of vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa without energy.”
- Indeed!
Regarding the following part of your comment: “Regarding energy-less records (namagotta) and dhammā (kamma bīja) and the analogy provided by Lal of the flashlight and candle respectively, the following came to mind:;
Let’s say you have a phone with various apps. Some apps give you a notification. You don’t know when these notifications come in. You can’t control them in any way. Although they don’t come in randomly, they seem to do so, nevertheless.Your analogy of an App sending a message/reminder is analogous to a kamma bija (dhammā) bringing “vipaka thoughts” is good.
- Even though we have no DIRECT control over when those can “come back,” we do have some control. Sometimes we make “suitable conditions” for kamma bija to bring vipaka.
- For example, if you go to a bad neighborhood at night, that makes suitable conditions for “getting into trouble.” If you verbally/physically abuse someone, that makes suitable conditions for getting into trouble.
- Those kamma bija are in “storage” or in “anantara.” If you make suitable conditions (samanantara), they can bring their vipaka. See “Anantara and Samanantara Paccayā.”
- However, it does not have to be that way for all vipaka. Some vipaka come whether there are suitable conditions or not. Yet, we can avoid many by “being mindful.” That also involves eating well, exercising regularly, etc.
- P.S. Good kamma bija can be induced to bring their vipaka in many ways. Many recite the “Supreme Qualities of Buddha, Dhamma, Saṅgha,” light candles, etc., before a meditation session. It can get one to the “right mindset.” If you treat others with kindness, that is also setting the background to bring good vipaka, etc.
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Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties
#6
“The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates. Nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates.”
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“Tattha katamaṁ dhammāyatanaṁ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaappaṭighaṁ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṁ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.”
I wonder why there is no viññāṇakkhandho in this sentence. If nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates, why vibhanga defines dhammāyatana by using only three of them?
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Also, #6 said: “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.”
But in Pe 6: “Dasa rūpaāyatanāni cakkhu rūpā ca yāva kāyo phoṭṭhabbā ca, ayaṁ rūpakkhandho.”
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I wonder why there are these discrepancies with Tipitaka. I thought I understood, but on reflection, I don’t think so. When I thought I understood, I thought this:
“Pancakkhandha and Salayatana have the same extension, they just have different approaches. Pancakkhandha is more focused on the contents of information, but salayatana is on the occurrence process of information. That’s why dhammāyatana incorporates both dhammā and namagotta.”
Laydhammafollower said in #44645:
“RūpakKhanda is not stored, it is generated as needed from other four aggregates.
When memory is recalled, Rūpakkhanda is regenerated from four aggregates stored in kamma bhava.
And this process of recalling involves energy. So, that is why dhamma comes to mind as dhammā.”
But lal said in #44649:
“1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record without any energy.
2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.”And, Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa said:
“Cakkhāyatana Is Cakkhu Pasāda Rupa
3. Cakkhāyatana is not the eyes. The “seeing” takes place in the mind, and the “seat of the mind” is the hadaya vatthu. The image captured by the eyes gets transmitted to the cakkhu pasāda rupa, which transfers the image to the hadaya vatthu.”I think this post says clearly that kammaja kaya is ayatana.
But according to the post, ayatana is only mental, it can not be made of physical rupa.
Looking at these different explanations and discrepancies with Tipitaka, I think I’m quite lost. I tried to find a way to construct my questions more keenly to know the foundation of the definition of rupakkhandha. I’d like lal to answer yes or no.
Q1: Rupakkhandha contains paccuppana kammaja kaya? – I think it does not. Because it is made of satara mahabhuta. Or I’m completely wrong about paccuppana.
Q2: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana? – I’m not sure whether it does or not. If it does, I’d like to know the reference in Tipitaka to make sure. In Vb 2: Chabbidhena manāyatanaṁ—cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, sotaviññāṇaṁ, ghānaviññāṇaṁ, jivhāviññāṇaṁ, kāyaviññāṇaṁ, manoviññāṇaṁ. Evaṁ chabbidhena manāyatanaṁ. So if rupakkhandha contains manāyatana, rupakkhandha has six vinnanas too.
Rupakkhandha is all mental impressions of physical rupa, but it is not the mental aggregates(vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha, vinnanakkhanda). Is there a reason why isn’t rupakkhandha categorized as nama in here even though it is mental?
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“Kamma Viññāna is not strictly mental and is responsible for the Nāmarūpa Formation leading to the arising of rupa.”
I wrote it down here and read vibhanga again.
Dasavidhena manāyatanaṁ—cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, sotaviññāṇaṁ, ghānaviññāṇaṁ, jivhāviññāṇaṁ, kāyaviññāṇaṁ atthi sukhasahagataṁ, atthi dukkhasahagataṁ, manodhātu, manoviññāṇadhātu atthi kusalaṁ, atthi akusalaṁ, atthi abyākataṁ. Evaṁ dasavidhena manāyatanaṁ.
Does manāyatana contains viññāṇakkhandha? And that’s why viññāṇakkhandha is not defined in dhammāyatana? I don’t think it is, but I just tried to find the reason why viññāṇakkhandha is not referred to in Ayatana vibhanga.
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Ekādasāyatanā saṅkhatā. Dhammāyatanaṁ siyā saṅkhataṁ, siyā asaṅkhataṁ.
Is this a reference to namagotta being permanent? I understand that sankhata means everything that goes through three stages: uppada, thiti, and vaya. And namagotta is permanent, so it can not get ‘vaya’. In that context, can namagotta be called asankhata? So, there is another way of the usage of the word asaṅkhata instead of referring to Nibbana? Because Vb 2 also said: Tattha katamā asaṅkhatā dhātu? Rāgakkhayo, dosakkhayo, mohakkhayo—ayaṁ vuccati “asaṅkhatā dhātu”.
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I understand ayatana as a kind of colored glasses. Arahant doesn’t use ayatana because they have entirely developed yathābhūta nāna; that is, he takes off his colored glasses and sees the world with his bare eyes. Using indriya as ayatana means focusing on the target with san. The ‘focusing more than necessary’ on these objects in samsara occurs because they believe it is worthwhile. Arahant removed all raga, so they have no ‘focusing more than necessary’ or ayatana. Therefore, there is no samphassa by salayatana. In PS context, I understand salayatana. But I don’t understand ayatana in the context of 12 ayatana = 5 khandas. I wish I could know why I don’t understand. I feel that something doesn’t fit, but I don’t know exactly what’s wrong. So I first considered the possibility that my feelings might be wrong, but the feelings never disappeared. I really want to understand why I’m wrong. The sense of contradiction makes me uncomfortable. I can’t wait to get rid of this.
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1. Regarding #6 of “Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties“:
I have revised it as follows:
“6. As in the case of the five aggregates, the twelve āyatana are categorized as past, present, and paccuppanna (“present”), as pointed out above.
- That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.
- The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the kamma viññāṇa; thus, it can be represented by the viññāṇa aggregate.) Nāmagotta contains all records of the vipāka viññāṇa, and thus, can be represented by the first three mental aggregates.
- Even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we recall them. I have explained that in the forum (but I should write a post to explain it fully.) See comment #40356 (on September 14, 2022, at 2:42 pm) in the thread “Post on ‘Nāmagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)’”
So, now there should not be any discrepancies regarding that.
2. Dosakkhayo wrote next:
“Laydhammafollower said in #44645:
“RūpakKhanda is not stored, it is generated as needed from other four aggregates.
When memory is recalled, Rūpakkhanda is regenerated from four aggregates stored in kamma bhava.
And this process of recalling involves energy. So, that is why dhamma comes to mind as dhammā.”
But lal said in #44649:
“1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record without any energy.
2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.”- Hopefully, that is resolved with #1 above.
3. Dosakkhayo wrote next:
“And, Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa said:
“Cakkhāyatana Is Cakkhu Pasāda Rupa
3. Cakkhāyatana is not the eyes. The “seeing” takes place in the mind, and the “seat of the mind” is the hadaya vatthu. The image captured by the eyes gets transmitted to the cakkhu pasāda rupa, which transfers the image to the hadaya vatthu.”I think this post says clearly that kammaja kaya is ayatana.”
- No. It does not. Where does it say that?
4. Q1: Rupakkhandha contains paccuppana kammaja kaya? – I think it does not.
- Why not? Any rupa is just registered in the mind even at the moment of seeing, hearing, etc!
- External rupa are made of satara maha bhuta. Yes. You are completely wrong about paccuppana rupa. What is registered in mind is not satara maha bhuta.
5. Q2: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana?
- No. Any ayatana is not maha bhuta. The hadaya vatthu is made of maha bhuta. But when it is used as manāyatana it is just a state of mind.
I think contemplating the above can provide answers to other questions.
- To emphasize: There are two types of vinnana: vipaka vinnana and kamma vinnana. Kamma vinnana have energy (dhammā.)
- vipaka part of the vinnana aggregate incorporates the first three mental aggregates and thus can be represented by the first three aggregates. That is namagotta.
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I think the main problem could be not realizing the following.
Let us take one sensory faculty: cakkhu.
In “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ,” cakkhu does not mean “physical eyes,” “rupa” does not mean “physical rupa (say a tree),” and “cakkhu viññāṇa” is not a “pure seeing event (seeing the tree).”
- That contact occurs in the manomaya kaya, with the cakkhu pasada rupa (carrying an IMPRINT of the tree) hitting the hadaya vatthu. Thus, “rupa” here is not the tree! Cakkhu is not physical eyes, even though they play a role.
- That gives rise to a citta, which CONTAMINATES within the lifetime of that citta to viññāṇa. That is the first stage of contamination. The second stage of contamination takes place in the next step, “Tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso.” See “Loka Sutta (SN 12.44).”
- That holds for all six sensory contacts.
- So, cakkhu already became an āyatana at the very beginning. Even if the mind may not attach to that particular ārammana, the mind goes through the “nine stages of contamination.” See “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought.”
- P.S. In the same way as the cakkhu indriya automatically becomes cakkhāyatana, mana indriya automatically becomes manāyatana.
- Thus, all six sensory faculties are generally āyatana unless one is an Arahant.
Details at “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)“
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Today, I solved many problems after calm and slow deliberation. Below is what I have learned so far. Please let me know if there’s anything wrong.
1. Manāyatana and dhammāyatana correspond to vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho.
I said: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana? – Lal said: No.
2. Dasa rūpaāyatanāna, namely cakkhāyatanaṁ, rūpāyatanaṁ, sotāyatanaṁ, saddāyatanaṁ, ghānāyatanaṁ, gandhāyatanaṁ, jivhāyatanaṁ, rasāyatanaṁ, kāyāyatanaṁ, and phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ correspond to rupakkhandha. See; Pe 6
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Therefore, #6 should be revised.
“That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.”
->”That makes sense since the five internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.”
“The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates.”
-> “The sixth internal and external āyatana incorporates the four mental aggregates.”
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3. There are two main types of rūpa that appear in suttā.<br />
3-1 The first type of rūpa refers to matter and energy. It is suddhāṭhaka (apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi, akasa) and dhammā rūpa below it. See “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean“<br />
3-2 The second rūpa is a mental impression created by the mind in the process of living being experiencing the first rūpa. It is not rūpa as matter and energy. All of the rupa that appear in the context referring to rupakkhandha is this second case.4. There are two stages of contamination of the mind.<br />
4-1 The first contamination occurs to all beings who have not attained Arahanthood. It is nine stages of contamination of citta. That’s why vipaka vinnana, experienced by all beings other than Arahant, is also contaminated. In this case, there is no tanha and kamma vinnana.4-2 The second contamination occurs only when the given arammana matches the one’s sangati. This is the “tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso” case, which can lead to generating kamma vinnana.
5. Arahant is free of both contaminations. That’s because arahant completed yathābhūta ñāna. Therefore, arahant has no ayatana.
5-1 Both akusala mula PS and kusala mula PS include ayatana. It doesn’t happen to Arahant either of these.<br />
5-2 The reason ayatana occurs in both processes is to additionally focus on. In akusala mula PS, one focus on arammana to enjoy it (ayatana with san). On the other hand, ayatana in kusala mula PS is like zeroing in to understand in a way consistent with the laws of nature. (So there is no san in kusala mula ayatana) Therefore, in the case of Arahant, ayatana is not required. Because the zero adjustment process has been completed. i.e. The cultivation of yath̃bhūtanana has been completed.6. Experience is possible even after achieving the Arahantship. So Arahant has pancakkhandha. And Arahant’s mind would not allow any contamination. So, Arahant’s pancakkhandha can not be contaminated. Now, here is the question. Arahant’s pancakkhandha can not be called ayatana. Because there is no contaminant at all. Also, “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ” can not refer to the experience process of Arahant by the same reasoning. Then what should it be called?
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I think I’ve read a post distinguishing between paticca and paccya to describe the process. It said: paticca refers to only contaminated processes and paccya refers to both contaminated and non-contaminated, but I can’t remember.
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My guess is that the experience of an arahant can still be described by the same verse:
“cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ“, because:
(1) For a living arahant, there is still a cakku pasada rupa and a hadaya vatthu.
(2) Elsewhere Lal has explained that paticca in this context is “coming together” — not the same as “pati + icca” as in paticca samuppada. Thus, for an arahant, there is still paticca in this sense.
We know that cakkhuviññāṇaṁ for an arahant is pure and vastly different from that of ours; it’s just not fathomable to us. If someone can make up a special term to describe that to help him understand better then it’s all good (perhaps something like “cakkhuñāṇaṁ” (without the “vi“)).
Anyhow, it is much easier to draw the distinction between an arahant and us in the subsequent verse: there is NO “tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso” for arahants, but there is for us. And this point can serve us better in terms of practice — to work to reduce “san“.
Best,
Lang
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Your observations are good, Lang.
Regarding: “We know that cakkhuviññāṇaṁ for an arahant is pure and vastly different from that of ours; it’s just not fathomable to us. If someone can make up a special term to describe that to help him understand better then it’s all good (perhaps something like “cakkhuñāṇaṁ” (without the “vi“)).”
- The same word cakkhuviññāṇa (or any other type of viññāṇa) is used for an Arahant as well. However, it is understood that it is NOT defiled in any way (all associated mental qualities, i.e., vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) have no trace of defilements.
- I think the main reason to use the term is that even for an Arahant, a citta goes through some stages of evolvement, ending up with incorporating all past experiences (i.e., becoming viññāṇakkhandha or the ‘aggregate of viññāṇa.)
- P.S. See “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought.”
Regarding: “Anyhow, it is much easier to draw the distinction between an arahant and us in the subsequent verse: there is NO “tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso” for arahants, but there is for us. And this point can serve us better in terms of practice — to work to reduce “san“.”
- Exactly!
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There are a few things that don’t seem to match up entirely:
A.)
#6 from the post under discussion:
“That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.“
Response to dosakkhayo’s question:
“5. Q2: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana?
No. Any ayatana is not maha bhuta. The hadaya vatthu is made of maha bhuta. But when it is used as manāyatana it is just a state of mind.
I’m not sure how to tally these two statements since “six internal” includes manāyatana, doesn’t it?
B.)
Regarding manāyatana, in #44725 it’s stated:
- P.S. In the same way as the cakkhu indriya automatically becomes cakkhāyatana, mana indriya automatically becomes manāyatana.
In one statement it’s referring to the mind and in one it’s referring to the mana indriya?
On a technical note:<br />
I realize that whenever I press shift + enter, the </br> appears. When I press enter, it does not. <br />
That’s why in this section you see a few of them. -
OK. Let us take Jorg’s A) part:
You quoted: “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.“
I did not say, “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana ARE the rupakkhandha.“
- “Ayatanas” are not the same as “six sensory faculties” in the sense that Arahants have sense faculties but not “āyatanas.” In the same way, five external āyatana are not the same as rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and photthabba. Arahants can experience rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and photthabba too, but they are not external āyatana for them.
Let me see whether I can explain the difference between rupa and rupakkhandha first.
- Suppose there was a huge Oak tree in front of your house that you have seen all your life. Last week you got a contractor to come in and remove it. He cut it down and hauled it away. No trace of that tree is there today. But you can recall that tree today because it is in the rupakkhandha. However, a record of that tree would not be in the rupakkhandha unless that tree was physically there before last week.
- Therefore, rupakkhandha is not the same as a physical rupa. But that part of the rupakkhandha would not exist without that physical rupa being in existence at some time. The existence of a CONNECTION does not mean they are the same. That is why there is nothing wrong with my statement, “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.“ I could state the same with the following sentence: “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana are based on physical rupa.“
The situation is similar in the case of internal āyatana: An internal āyatana is not the same as a “sense faculty.” An Arahant has sense faculties, but they are not āyatana for the Arahant.
- That is why your statement, “I’m not sure how to tally these two statements since “six internal” includes manāyatana, doesn’t it?” does not make sense either.
- An Arahant does not have manāyatana but has a mind. That mind is BASED ON a physical rupa, the hadaya vatthu. An average human also has a hadaya vatthu, but they use it as manāyatana.
- I think the same issue arises in the B) part of your comment.
These are somewhat complicated issues that require contemplation. I cannot write everything in a post. So, I give links, and not many people read them. Some people just read a post in 10 minutes and are done with it (I am not referring to anyone in particular.)
- In most cases, when someone posts a comment, I can see that I can make some changes to my writing to make it clear.
- But in a few cases, I can see that it is unfruitful to engage any further. I may be able to explain it better if I have the time to write another post, but I don’t have all the time in the world.
- I appreciate your comments and questions. They help make the website better and are beneficial to all. But in a few cases, I will say: this is all I can do for now.
- If an issue is critically important and I have not responded satisfactorily, please email me.
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Regarding A, upon rephrasing the “take into account” to “based on” I actually got the point. Some nuances there which threw me off. I retract my original question:)
Thanks!
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OK. Let us see whether we can push Jorg a little bit more.
“B.) Regarding manāyatana, in #44725 it’s stated:
- P.S. In the same way as the cakkhu indriya automatically becomes cakkhāyatana, mana indriya automatically becomes manāyatana.
In one statement it’s referring to the mind and in one it’s referring to the mana indriya?”
Cakkhu indriya can be thought of as the whole system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa. If any of those do not function, no signal will reach the hadaya vatthu, i.e., there will be no vision. An Arahant or an average human can see unless blind.
- But an average human uses that system to “acquire san” by using it for “pleasure-seeking activities” (watching X-rated movies in an extreme example.) That is when cakkhu indriya becomes cakkhayatana.
- An Arahant would not do that. His cakkhu indriya never becomes cakkhayatana.
- Just like in rupa/rupakkhandha, cakkhayatana is not the system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa.
- But cakkhayatana would not exist (i.e., an average human would not have the capability to watch porn) without the system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa (cakkhu indriya.)
Manāyatana or any other āyatana works the same way. Sensory faculties BECOME āyatana for average humans, but not for Arahants.
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I thought of a wording that helps me personally understand this better:
“Manāyatana or any other āyatana works the same way. Sensory faculties LEAD TO āyatana for average humans, but not for Arahants.”.
(replacing BECOME with “LEAD TO”)
If this kind of phrasing makes sense to others, there are other synonyms of “lead to” that can be used:
bring, bring on, produce, generate, etc.
Also, using the example of someone watching an X-rated movie, I have another thought: āyatanā come in clusters.
First, the “pleasure” really takes place in the mind, so we have manāyatana and cakkhayatana happening together.
In this kind of movie, there are also sounds to illustrate the passion. Thus there are likely cakkhayatana, sotayatana, and manāyatana happening in the viewer.
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Thank you guys, I really appreciate the effort!
I looked back at my question and I think I didn’t make something clear or left it open to interpretation. Please allow me to elaborate and then comment on it myself first.
The mana indriya is located in the brain. The hadaya vatthu is located in the heart region. In one part, Lal mentioned that the mana indriya becomes manaytana and in another part that the hadaya vatthu becomes manayata.
Before reflection, the sañña I had of manayatana was to automatically connect it to the mana indriya that is now being used as an ayatana, not the hadaya vatthu. Let’s say, sort of like a “6th passada rupa.” (I don’t have any confusion about the fact that an Arahant doesn’t have ayatana, and that ayatana can only ever come into being due to “san”)
However, it makes sense that we have a mana indriya only when we’re in a human body. The moment the manomayakaya comes out of the body, whether during an NDE, OBE, or at the death of the physical body, that manayatana can only refer to the hadaya vatthu from where the mind arises. Same goes for devas and brahmas. As long as we have a human body, they seem separate in a way but they’re part of the same system.So the basis of my question was due to having an incomplete understanding of mayatana/mana indriya.
Although I thought A got answered to my satisfaction, it didn’t really. This became clear after the subsequent comments. Thank you for giving the extra push to let me think critically. I’m sorry for the confusion. -
The problem has been solved. I have no more questions on this topic. Thank you to Lal, Jorg, LDF, and Lang.
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I am glad to hear that Jorg’s and Dosakkhayo’s concerns/questions have been resolved.
Jorg wrote: “The mana indriya is located in the brain. The hadaya vatthu is located in the heart region. In one part, Lal mentioned that the mana indriya becomes manaytana and in another part that the hadaya vatthu becomes manayata.”
The Tipitaka is not very clear about what is defiled by cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, and mana indriya.
That is why I wrote in my previous comment explaining the cakkhu indriya as follows: “Cakkhu indriya can be thought of as the whole system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa. If any of those do not function, no signal will reach the hadaya vatthu, i.e., there will be no vision. An Arahant or an average human can see unless blind.”
- That could be a better way to explain the cakkhu indriya (and the others similarly.)
Therefore, mana indriya could be considered to incorporate any brain functions as well as the hadaya vatthu.
- Of course, hadaya vatthu is where the cittas arise. That would not change.
- But just as an average human uses the cakkhu indriya as cakkhayatana, the mana indriya (the system comprising the hadaya vatthu and brain functions) is used as manayatana.
Therefore, I think the above description could be better. (The Pali word for the physical eye is “nayana,” but I have not seen it used to defile the cakkhu indriya. The reason could be that the role of the brain was completely unknown to humans at the time of the Buddha. He could not have explained it to people at that time.)
Of course, the following is what matters:
- Cakkhu indriya enables us to see. Sota indriya enables us to hear….Mana indriya enables us to think.
- Each indriya is used as the respective āyatana by an average human.
- An Arahant does not have āyatana but has the respective indriya.
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The explanation of a “system” I thought was very illuminating. It’s fully compatible with Buddha Dhamma and also entails how everything is connected through cause and effect.
I think it would be great if you could add some of these explanations to a post or two, referring to:
Cakkhu indriya can be thought of as the whole system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa. If any of those do not function, no signal will reach the hadaya vatthu, i.e., there will be no vision. An Arahant or an average human can see unless blind.
Therefore, mana indriya could be considered to incorporate any brain functions as well as the hadaya vatthu.
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Of course, hadaya vatthu is where the cittas arise. That would not change.
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But just as an average human uses the cakkhu indriya as cakkhayatana, the mana indriya (the system comprising the hadaya vatthu and brain functions) is used as manayatana.
For example, under #5:Indriya and Ayatana – A Big Difference
Regarding just manāyatana, perhaps a clarification at the very bottom of the page:What are Rūpa – Dhammā are Rūpa too!
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Thank you, Jorg. That is a good idea.
I have revised (some parts rewritten) the post, “Indriya and Āyatana – Big Difference.” I hope it is better.
- I will rewrite the other post you mentioned or may write a new one to provide more information on how “energy-less” namagotta (memories) come to the mind as dhammā when willfully recalled, i.e., even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we try to recall them.
- I have explained that in the forum: See comment #40356 (on September 14, 2022, at 2:42 pm) in the thread “Post on ‘Nāmagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)’” But I will put it into an existing post or a new post.
- Please feel free to comment on any of the above. I can address any such questions/comments. These are subtle and important issues.
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