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I thought I’d post the following here instead of creating a new thread.
Thank you for reminding us of the deeper meanings of the terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda.
Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda
Not too long ago, I listened to a thero teaching “dependent origination” in the reverse order, and he taught it ONLY in the sense of “everything ceases”. My impression was that he was talking about Nirodha Samapatti without using the term.
For us starting out on the path, we may need to spell out Paṭicca Samuppāda explicitly to cement it in our brain:
Iti imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti, imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati, yadidaṁ—
avijjā paccayā abhisaṅkhāra
abhisaṅkhāra paccayā kamma viññāna
kamma viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa
nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana
salāyatana paccayā samphassa
samphassa paccayā samphassa-jā-vedanā
samphassa-jā-vedanā paccayā taṇhā
taṇhā paccayā upādāna
upādāna paccayā bhava
bhava paccayā jāti
jāti paccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavantiEvametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hotī”ti
—————ti imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti, imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati, yadidaṁ—
avijjā nirodhā abhisaṅkhāranirodho
abhisaṅkhāra nirodhā kamma viññāṇa nirodho
kamma viññāṇa nirodhā nāmarūpa nirodho
nāmarūpa nirodhā saḷāyatana nirodho
saḷāyatana nirodhā samphassa nirodho
samphassa nirodhā samphassa-jā-vedanā nirodho
samphassa-jā-vedanā nirodhā taṇhā nirodho
taṇhā nirodhā upādāna nirodho
upādāna nirodhā bhava nirodho
bhava nirodhā jāti nirodho
jāti nirodhā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhantiEvametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī”ti.
Best,
LangThe “B B B …” is what? Is that just the mode of presentation for “bhavanga” and there is no real bhavanga citta?
That’s actually a good way to put it: just a way to represent “bhavanga“.
When there is no citta vithi running, then we have the bhavanga state, the “baseline” for that bhava (bhava + anga).
In several places we have used the analogy of being under anesthesia for bhavanga. Those of us who have gone through operations (I’ve had a few) should know this well:
We are wheeled to the operating room.
The doctor connects us to some IV.
We wake up in the recovery room.A few hours have passed, for our family members waiting for us, but those hours did not exist for us. There was no citta vithi during the operation, but there were still the hadaya vatthu + pasada rupa.
Using the shielding metaphor, the body under anesthesia shields our mind (gandhabba). It seems like an asanna being is shielded by “kammic anesthesia”.
“The frog of course could not understand the desana, but his state of the mind (due the soothing voice of the Buddha) enabled him to grasp a deva bhava, based on a strong past good kamma.”
With respect to the monkey, I have read the following story (I will have to search for it):
A monkey offered honey to the Buddha.
The Buddha accepted the honey, and the monkey was overcome with joy, fell into a well and died.
The monkey was reborn a human and attained arahanthood.“– But I see the point that Tobias is making. Unwholesome/wholesome vipaka can come through the mana indriya (as dhammā).”
Is the following an example of this situation (this happens to me from time to time):
I may be washing the dishes when a memory comes to mind of something I said or did that offended someone; I then felt bad about that action and wished that I hadn’t done it.
That memory (a dhamma) and the resulting bad feeling involve just the mana indriya. Is that right?
Lang
Hi TripleGemStudent,
The following post and forum may be relevant to what you are contemplating:
If I am understanding a being, Nirodha Samapatti and Parinibbana correctly.
Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti
Best,
LangThe following post explains a few types of anusati:
Anussati and Anupassanā – Being Mindful and Removing Defilements
When it comes to contemplating the “disgusting nature of the body”, most places I’ve read use the term asubhanusati to describe that, not kayanusati.
This is of course a misinterpretation of asubhanusati; I’m just saying that many sources explain it that way.
Best,
LangHi Raj,
Here’s the link to the talk (just use the “link” icon when you write a post, and it’s self-explanatory).
What is a Jhana? Commentaries vs Suttas – Meaning?
I listened to this talk a number of times before, read a couple of books by Bhante, and got to know David Johnson well via email.
Bhante devised a method called the 6Rs. I have not attended a retreat with Bhante, but I see nothing here that is contrary to Buddha Dhamma.
— You said:
“In my sessions I would do 90% vipassana and 10% metta.”If you attend this retreat you may as well do it fully as instructed, just like you would do a Goenka course. After all, you can tell the Goenka centers that you practice metta, which should have no interference with the Goenka’s style of vipassana.
Best,
Lang“Since the window of the current Buddha sasana is only 5000 years, it is very disheartening that is so hard or almost impossible to attain stream entry unless on understands the tilakkhana.”
“If they were unable to even enter the stream, there is no hope for a lay person like me.”
You seem to be discouraged about attaining the sotapanna stage in this life. Without speculating about other people’s magga phala, I believe that there are ariyā right here in the puredhamma.net community.
“I am so grateful for your having created this wonderful tool to understand Buddha’s teachings.”
In fact, I believe that Lal created this website primarily to help us get to the sotapanna stage.
Of the ten dasa akusala, a sotapanna has removed just one: micchā diṭṭhi, and learning Dhamma from the posts here helps remove it. Further more, it brings Nirāmisa Sukha almost right away:
Learning Buddha Dhamma Leads to Nirāmisa Sukha
Personally, I feel for the first time ever that the sotapanna anugami stage is within reach in this life time.
Best,
Lang“A deeper point is that since a gandhabba does not have a physical body and a brain, citta can just flow “without control”.
So the brain helps the mind rest: since the brain slows down the processing of sense input, the mind can fall back to the bhavanga state in between the times the brain sends signals to it. Also, in deep sleep the mind can rest in its bhavanga state.
In the gadhabba state, there is probably no chance to be in the bhavanga state, and no such thing as “sleep”?
On the other hand, the gandhabba must still retain the gati of the human who died. If the human had the gati of listening to Dhamma then the gandhabba may seek out opportunities for listening to desana.
Lang
Fascinating video. From what we know about bhava and jati, we can clearly see that a human bhava can be thousands of years, with many jati within it.
After her “dead” experience, she emerged practically Egyptian. Is this because during that experience anusaya from the life in Egypt surfaced and dominated the rest of her present life?
Although I have no doubt about rebirths, I sometimes think that it must be “cool” to really recall a past life, but now I suppose that recalling a past life is not without risks. What if we recall a past life, and then get consumed by it to the point we stop learning Buddha Dhamma for the rest of this life?
Thank you, Lal.
I’m now back to reading the posts on the Sotapanna stage, so this is great.
One more question: what is the breakdown of the word Sammattaniyāma?
Does it have to do with samma + atta + niyama?
Hi Ida,
What do you mean by “meditation links”?
When I need to refresh on meditation, I go to the Bhāvanā section of this site:
You’re asking this question in a thread about SN Goenka’s technique. If you have taken those courses and are asking about sites related to that technique, then I happen to know that they have online virtual “group sitting”, among other things.
TripleGemStudent wrote:
“Just wondering if anyone have come across or heard of any Buddhist monks that experienced adverse side effects of practicing incorrect meditation techniques?”
There is a book about the Buddhist master Dipa Ma:
Dipa Ma
The Life and Legacy of a Buddhist Master
— by Amy Schmidt
In that book, there’s mention of a Vietnamese monk named Khippapanno who attended a retreat in Burma in 1969. For 5 days he couldn’t stop laughing or screaming; he then left the retreat, but Dipa Ma invited him to meditate with her, and got him “out” of his predicament.
Hi all,
This is a forum about Goenka’s vipassana technique, and now has turned to the possible dangers of meditation, especially of meditation retreats.
I do have a few additional thoughts to add on both topics. I have been hesitant to write these things since I used to be more or less intimately connected to the Goenka’s tradition. However, to some people the following may bring a useful perspective.
First, a tragic account of a young woman’s death:
She didn’t know what was real’: Did 10-day meditation retreat trigger woman’s suicide?
For those not familiar with the Goenka’s technique, a very quick recap:
(The full description of a course is above: https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/goenkas-vipassana/#post-15236)
“Anapana” means breadth meditation.
“Vipassana” means observing physical, bodily sensations.
In a typical meditation sitting, someone may “do” anapana for a little while to calm the mind down, and once the mind is sufficiently calm, he/she then “does” vipassana.
“Doing vipassana” here means something like this: a person moves attention from the top of the head to the tips of the toes, noting sensations on the body parts along the way — pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. The meditator keeps a mind of equanimity toward these sensations.
There are variations to this, but the above is the gist of it.
The first drawback of this is of course the incorrect interpretation of anapana and vipassana. A student leaving the courses takes anapana as breath awareness and vipassana as the body scan technique. Many, including what we call “assistant teachers” who conduct these courses, do not bother to learn Buddha Dhamma further.
Goenka presented this body scan technique as the “Jewel of the Dhamma”, something that was lost from India but preserved in Myanmar (and now has been brought back to India). It was preserved in ancient time by the theros Sona and Uttara, transmitting down to the present day lineage:
Ledi Sayadaw
Saya Thetgyi
Sayagyi U Ba Khin
S N Goenka
The names of anyone in between are not known. It was speculated that Ledi Sayadaw learned this technique from someone in Mandalay.
I am sure these were holy people. At the same time, I remember being amused when I heard of the technique described in this way; after all, I had known of this body scan technique long before.
Because of this, I used to read some writings of Ledi Sayadaw, including the book that DanielSt mentioned in a different forum. I knew that Ledi Sayadaw was prolific, and wanted to see if he wrote of this body scan technique in this way. I found none; if anyone knows more of his writing in this regard, please share.
The other drawback is related to the “dangers” we’re discussing. A 10-day, residential course with many hours of sitting in silence each day may be “too much” for someone with a mental condition. In the application process, they do have a mechanism to detect such candidates, but I suppose from time to time someone “slips through”. Hopefully, an extreme case like the story above does not repeat.
These are my two cents. Hope some find it helpful.
Best.