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TripleGemStudent wrote:
“Just wondering if anyone have come across or heard of any Buddhist monks that experienced adverse side effects of practicing incorrect meditation techniques?”There is a book about the Buddhist master Dipa Ma:
Dipa Ma
The Life and Legacy of a Buddhist Master
— by Amy SchmidtIn that book, there’s mention of a Vietnamese monk named Khippapanno who attended a retreat in Burma in 1969. For 5 days he couldn’t stop laughing or screaming; he then left the retreat, but Dipa Ma invited him to meditate with her, and got him “out” of his predicament.
Hi all,
This is a forum about Goenka’s vipassana technique, and now has turned to the possible dangers of meditation, especially of meditation retreats.
I do have a few additional thoughts to add on both topics. I have been hesitant to write these things since I used to be more or less intimately connected to the Goenka’s tradition. However, to some people the following may bring a useful perspective.
First, a tragic account of a young woman’s death:
She didn’t know what was real’: Did 10-day meditation retreat trigger woman’s suicide?
For those not familiar with the Goenka’s technique, a very quick recap:
(The full description of a course is above: https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/goenkas-vipassana/#post-15236)“Anapana” means breadth meditation.
“Vipassana” means observing physical, bodily sensations.In a typical meditation sitting, someone may “do” anapana for a little while to calm the mind down, and once the mind is sufficiently calm, he/she then “does” vipassana.
“Doing vipassana” here means something like this: a person moves attention from the top of the head to the tips of the toes, noting sensations on the body parts along the way — pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. The meditator keeps a mind of equanimity toward these sensations.
There are variations to this, but the above is the gist of it.
The first drawback of this is of course the incorrect interpretation of anapana and vipassana. A student leaving the courses takes anapana as breath awareness and vipassana as the body scan technique. Many, including what we call “assistant teachers” who conduct these courses, do not bother to learn Buddha Dhamma further.
Goenka presented this body scan technique as the “Jewel of the Dhamma”, something that was lost from India but preserved in Myanmar (and now has been brought back to India). It was preserved in ancient time by the theros Sona and Uttara, transmitting down to the present day lineage:
Ledi Sayadaw
Saya Thetgyi
Sayagyi U Ba Khin
S N GoenkaThe names of anyone in between are not known. It was speculated that Ledi Sayadaw learned this technique from someone in Mandalay.
I am sure these were holy people. At the same time, I remember being amused when I heard of the technique described in this way; after all, I had known of this body scan technique long before.
Because of this, I used to read some writings of Ledi Sayadaw, including the book that DanielSt mentioned in a different forum. I knew that Ledi Sayadaw was prolific, and wanted to see if he wrote of this body scan technique in this way. I found none; if anyone knows more of his writing in this regard, please share.
The other drawback is related to the “dangers” we’re discussing. A 10-day, residential course with many hours of sitting in silence each day may be “too much” for someone with a mental condition. In the application process, they do have a mechanism to detect such candidates, but I suppose from time to time someone “slips through”. Hopefully, an extreme case like the story above does not repeat.
These are my two cents. Hope some find it helpful.
Best.
Hi,
I visit the website reincarnationresearch.com from time to time.
In one particular case, the subject describes the interval state (the bottom of the page). Here they call it a spirit being orb.
Spirit Being Orbs and the Reincarnation Case of Shanti Devi Mathur
Lang
I picked up most of the Pali terms from this site. For me, learning Pali terms here is easier to remember for at least 2 reasons:
- Lal explains the terms in context.
- Lal breaks down the Pali words into parts, making the meanings clear.
About book learning, I’m using “Learn Pali the Easy Way” (2 volumes) by Kurt Schmidt, but that is going very slowly. These books teach Pali in the context of Buddha Dhamma.
This is fascinating, especially in light of the newest post about sankhāra.
Lal said:
“– I think vaci sankhara cease in the second or third jhana. Kaya sankhara cease in the fourth jhana. All sankhara cease to exist with the ceasing of mano sankhara (with vedana and sanna) when entering Nirodha Samapatti at the highest jhana (nevasanna na sannayatana)”It looks like for ariya jhana, the higher the jhana, the more things cease. And “things” here mean cetasikā, I suppose.
We learned elsewhere here that vaci sankhara is vitakka/vicara. So the vitakka and vicara cetasikā cease at the second or third jhana. Then more and more cetasikā cease, until finally the vedana and sanna cetasikā (mano sankhara) also cease, leading to Nirodha Samapatti.
We’ve also learned that Nirodha Samapatti can last a maximum of 7 days. From this I speculate that the physical body on its own can stay alive for 7 days without the Jīvitindriya cetasika?
Best,
LangHi Raj,
I happened to be reading about vitakka/vicara and savitakka/savicara just recently, so let me just direct you to it:
Vitakka, Vicāra, Savitakka, Savicāra, and Avitakka, Avicāra
About the series, I listened to them some time back, so I’ll have to relisten; it’s also about time for a review for me. I did remember that they made quite an impression on me, so they are the first ones I think about when someone asks about Dhamma talks.
Lal would know what karmastthanas means, but I am guessing that it is Kammathana in Pali, meaning object of meditation, if I’m not mistaken.
I am Vietnamese, and I’m striving to learn Pali like everyone on this site. It is indeed a joy in studying this website: learning Buddha Dhamma according to the Tipitaka, and having someone like Lal explaining the Pali terms to us.
One more addition regarding Dhamma talks: search for Dharmayai Obai from YouTube. Someone here once introduced that, and I remember listening to a few in English; they are also consistent to the Dhamma we are learning here.
Best,
LangHi Raj,
I was listening to this series of Dhamma talks, since I found them to be consistent to what we’re learning here. Hope you find them helpful.
Path to Nibbhana – Season 1 – Episode 1 – Basic Understanding of Buddhism – Discourse 05 Mar 2020
Hi Raj,
You’ll find some relevant information about this in this forum thread, where we also discussed the talk by Bhante Dhammavuddho:
Post on “Gati (Habits/Character) Determine Births – Saṃsappanīya Sutta”
There, with some more references, Lal explained that the phala citta followed right after the magga citta; thus one becomes a sotapanna in one moment (citta vithi).
When one becomes a sotapanna anugami, at the Gotrabu stage, one is on the path to become a sotapanna, but that can take some time.
Also, the following post is about the four conditions for the sotapanna stage:
Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala
… and yes, listening to Dhamma talks is one of them.
Best,
LangI took a few 10-day courses and a 7-day satipatthana sutta course in this tradition. I also wrote a description of a 10-day course above (#15236).
I summary, the practitioner scans the body from top to bottom, observing the sensations along the way, staying neutral to them. In other words, they take bodily sensations as the arammana.
Why just bodily sensations? One reason is the following verse: “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”.
Goenkaji explained this verse as follows: “Everything that arises in the mind starts flowing with a sensation on the body.”
Lal has explained what this verse means above (#15237): “All types of vedana coming together to lead to each and all dhammā”.
After learning things from puredhamma.net for a while now, I’m thinking that “vedanā” in this verse means samphassa-ja vedanā, not sukha and dukkha vedanā. Is that correct?
For me, noting bodily sensations does have one benefit: it calms the mind down, similar to doing breath meditation, and likewise is a temporary calm. However, using that calm mind for bhavana as described here is very effective.
Best,
LangIt is under this forum thread:
Sachi Samidu – Excellent Dhamma Explanations by a Four-Year Old
The regular or mundane alobha, adosa, amoha still keep one in the rebirth process.
alobha, adosa, amoha with the comprehension of the four noble truths / tilakkana / Paṭicca Samuppāda lead to nibbana.
This was explained in:
Abhayamudra,
You mentioned the 3rd and 4th bases, so I assume you meant the following section:
Sabbakāyapaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī ti sikkhati,
sabbakāyapaṭisaṁvedī passasissāmī ti sikkhati;
passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ assasissāmī ti sikkhati,
passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ passasissāmī ti sikkhati.The part about “whole bodily formation and calming the bodily formation” is probably about the last 2 verses with the word “passambhayaṁ”.
There’s a forum about key Pali words that addresses the word “passambhayaṁ”:
Hi sptummala,
I asked this question about “this world does not exist” under the following forum some time back:
Look for Lal’s reply under #15229
Best,
LangIn the following post
Interpretation of the Tipitaka – Gandhabba Example
… under #3 we have:
“…the manomaya kāya (gandhabba) may live for thousands of years in the human bhava”
I’m assuming that a gandhabba can stay in the gandhabba form for thousands of year straight, without birth (jati) as a human with a physical body.
I found the following thing you said interesting:
“One ghost they saw was of a girl who was near her own portrait in a palace/museum they visited.”
Is this an example of attachment (tanha)? i.e. attachment to the previous physical human existence?
Best,
LangHi TripleGemStudent,
what I said about breath meditation was just a side comment. We here know how pervasive it is that breath meditation is wrongly interpreted as anapanasati, and anatta as no self.
For the topic at hand, we know that:
Sakkaya = pancupadanakkhandha
sakkāya ditthi = wrong views that sakkaya is worthwhile to be taken as me, mine, the 20 ways you mentioned.… and also
pancupadanakkhandha is a subset of pancakkhandhaYou said:
“Sakkaya is the origin of Sakkaya Ditthi.”— I tend to think that Sakkaya Ditthi is “in” pancupadanakkhandha (probably in the sankharakkhanda).
“…But even with Sakkaya Ditthi removed one would still Sakkaya until one has removed all Avija.”
— This is true. Sakkaya Ditthi is removed at the sotapanna stage. At this stage, there is still pancupadanakkhandha, but it has reduced by a “huge” amount.
“As long as the pancakkhandha is there for the satta, the “perception” of “I, me” or mana will be there.”
— I’d say that “As long as pancupadanakkhandha is there …”
For an arahant, there is still pancakkhandha (until parinibbana), but no perception of “I, me” or mana.
