Sequence in Coming Out of Saññāvedayitanirodha

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    • #34943
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The following post is by Tobias G:

      Please see MN 44:

      “…“But ma’am, which cease first for a mendicant who is entering the cessation of perception and feeling: physical, verbal, or mental processes?”

      “Saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpajjantassa panāyye, bhikkhuno katame dhammā paṭhamaṁ nirujjhanti—yadi vā kāyasaṅkhāro, yadi vā vacīsaṅkhāro, yadi vā cittasaṅkhāro”ti?

      “Verbal processes cease first, then physical, then mental.”
      “Saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpajjantassa kho, āvuso visākha, bhikkhuno paṭhamaṁ nirujjhati vacīsaṅkhāro, tato kāyasaṅkhāro, tato cittasaṅkhāro”ti.


      “But ma’am, which arise first for a mendicant who is emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling: physical, verbal, or mental processes?”
      “Saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpattiyā vuṭṭhahantassa panāyye, bhikkhuno katame dhammā paṭhamaṁ uppajjanti—yadi vā kāyasaṅkhāro, yadi vā vacīsaṅkhāro, yadi vā cittasaṅkhāro”ti?

      “Mental processes arise first, then physical, then verbal.”
      “Saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpattiyā vuṭṭhahantassa kho, āvuso visākha, bhikkhuno paṭhamaṁ uppajjati cittasaṅkhāro, tato kāyasaṅkhāro, tato vacīsaṅkhāro”ti.
      —————————

      Can someone explain what is meant here with Saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ and the sequences of kaya, vaci, citta (or mano) sankhara?

    • #34944
      Lal
      Keymaster

      To get into “Saññāvedayitanirodha” or “Nirodha Samapatti” one needs to go sequentially through all the jhana. By the way, these MUST be Ariya jhana, since only someone at the Arahant stage can get into it. It is basically experiencing “full Nibbana” during a lifetime.

      In the English translation above, it would be better to say: “vaci sankhara cease first, then kaya sankhara, and finally mano sankhara cease.”
      – Therefore, no citta can arise in Nirodha Samapatti.
      – I think vaci sankhara cease in the second or third jhana. Kaya sankhara cease in the fourth jhana. All sankhara cease to exist with the ceasing of mano sankhara (with vedana and sanna) when entering Nirodha Samapatti at the highest jhana (nevasanna na sannayatana)

      When getting into that Samapatti, the Arahant would determine the duration of the Samapatti.
      At the end of that time interval, the 3 types of sankhara arise in the reverse order.
      – So, the translation would be, “mano sankhara arise first, then kaya sankhara, and finally vaci sankhara arise.”

    • #34959
      cubibobi
      Participant

      This is fascinating, especially in light of the newest post about sankhāra.

      Lal said:
      “– I think vaci sankhara cease in the second or third jhana. Kaya sankhara cease in the fourth jhana. All sankhara cease to exist with the ceasing of mano sankhara (with vedana and sanna) when entering Nirodha Samapatti at the highest jhana (nevasanna na sannayatana)”

      It looks like for ariya jhana, the higher the jhana, the more things cease. And “things” here mean cetasikā, I suppose.

      We learned elsewhere here that vaci sankhara is vitakka/vicara. So the vitakka and vicara cetasikā cease at the second or third jhana. Then more and more cetasikā cease, until finally the vedana and sanna cetasikā (mano sankhara) also cease, leading to Nirodha Samapatti.

      We’ve also learned that Nirodha Samapatti can last a maximum of 7 days. From this I speculate that the physical body on its own can stay alive for 7 days without the Jīvitindriya cetasika?

      Best,
      Lang

    • #34960
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “It looks like for ariya jhana, the higher the jhana, the more things cease.”

      – Actually, that holds true for anariya jhana as well.
      – However, it is not possible to enter Nirodha Samapatti, i.e., the last step is not possible with anariya jhana. That is because defilements are only SUPPRESSED in anariya jhana, whereas an Arahant has eliminated all defilements.

      “We’ve also learned that Nirodha Samapatti can last a maximum of 7 days. From this I speculate that the physical body on its own can stay alive for 7 days without the Jīvitindriya cetasika?”
      – That is correct. The physical body is kept alive by the jivindriya rupa, not the jivitindriya cetasika.

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