[cubibobi]

Thank you for the wonderful discussion and for the series of posts on distorted/defiled saññā. I have gone through that series several times and am still making my way slowly through them; I did have a thought, however, of a possible connection between these concepts and paṭicca samuppāda, which I’d like to share here to see if it makes sense.

Let’s start with paṭicca samuppāda (PS), and let’s focus on just akusala-mula PS for this discussion:  “avijja paccaya sankhara……bhava paccaya jati…..“

We see that 3 of the 4 mental khandā are in PS: sankhara, vinnana, vedana. Saññā is not.

Reading about distorted/defiled saññā, I had the idea that saññā is the mechanism or condition that moves PS from one step to the next. I sort of see it in the “vedana paccaya tanha” step.

In other words, distorted/defiled saññā is the “paccaya” in paṭicca samuppāda.

Best,

Lang

[cubibobi]

Thank you, Lal.

I still have no idea yet about the topic at hand.

For the previous point, I thought that a baby has kama saññā as a result of being born a human. For example, if we put one thing in the baby’s mouth it knows whether to accept that (as food, for example) and swallow it. But if we put another thing into its mouth then it’ll reject it.

kama saññā still has to be taught, correct? I don’t have children, but I now remember that parents had to keep watch of their babies or toddlers in case they put strange things in their mouths.

[cubibobi]

The baby does know things about the world, in the sense that the baby was born with saññā (distorted), i.e. the baby was born with its own gati as part of its bhavanga state.

[cubibobi]

Hi all. First of all, Happy New Year to everyone! I hope everyone had a 2023 filled with Dhamma.

This is a minor point unrelated to the main ideas of this thread, but I just want to sort out a couple of Pali terms.

There are various statements like:

“The puthujanas who reside most of the time in the apayas …”

My understanding is that the term puthujjana means an average (anariya) HUMAN and that “satta” means an average being in general (including a puthujjana).

… so the statement should be:
“The sattās who reside most of the time in the apayā …”?

Best,
Lang

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Yash RS

[cubibobi]

A while back, I read that mudita was sympathetic joy — being happy in the success of others.

 

I remember this post about ariya metta bhavana:

5. Ariya Metta Bhāvana (Loving Kindness Meditation)

#6 says that all four Brahma Vihāra are cultivated with ariya metta bhavana

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dosakkhayo

[cubibobi]

Thank you, Lal.

So subha is just one word that cannot be broken down further.

With subha meaning “fruitful/good”, I thought it made sense to think of the word in terms of su + bhava (good bhava), and that subha saññā is the saññā that bhava is good (fruitful).

That’s taking it a bit too far, right?

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LayDhammaFollower

[cubibobi]

Dear all,

I’d like to revisit this thread to ask a question about the breakdown of the word “asubha.”

Is asubha = a + su + bhava ?

Thank you!
Lang

[cubibobi]

Thank you, Lal! Your response shed much light and made me think of a few things.

First, Aniduan wrote: “Upon Google search the word Sanatana Dharma comes up as eternal truth in Hinduism”

I thought that he had a typo and left out the “n”, and thus I thought of the above Dhammapada verse. This is because I have seen only this kind of translation for the verse;

It is not by hatred that hatred
subsides here anytime.
but by non-hatred they subside.
this is an eternal law.

The last line is always translated as:

this is the timeless Truth
this is the eternal law
etc.

I suppose this is another example of conventional meaning vs deeper meaning. I have not seen sanantano explained this way — as the end of “san” — although it makes a lot of sense, based on what we have been learning here.

Another question about the Pali breakdown: it seems like “anti” (in sammanti) and “anta” (in sanantano) are the same meaning components (the end) in different forms?

Related to the above, I was reading the latest post: Uncovering the Suffering-Free (Pabhassara) Mind

Under number 12, we have the phrase “sīti bhavissanti“, meaning “will be fully cooled down“. Does bhavissanti break down to “bhava” + “anti“?

[cubibobi]

“sanantana” appears in Verse 5 of Yamaka Vagga of the Dhammapada:

“Na hi verena verāni
sammantī’dha kudācanam
Averena ca sammanti
esa dhammo sanantano“

[cubibobi]

Thank you, Lal!

“It is just that the “sweetness” or “saltiness” in not a vedana but a “sanna”.”

This makes a lot of sense!

So, the nature of “sweetness”, “saltiness”, etc. is the “Guṇa” part of “Kāma Guṇa“. If we were to invent a phrase, can we say that an arahant has “Guna Sanna“? (with guna implied to apply to the kama loka).

If we say “Kāma Guṇa” then the “Kāma” part implies some kind of attachment, and not mere “qualities” or “characteristics”, correct?

[cubibobi]

I was rereading these posts and had similar thoughts as TGS.

Up to now, I always thought that Kāma Guṇa and somanassa do arise in an arahant, which make a lot of sense to me.

Under #29933 above, Lal wrote:
I have confirmed that many times. Yes, An Arahant would taste that meal to be tasty.

I do remember Lal mentioning that many times, plus a few other examples, such as one about a beautiful woman.

 

Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccandha

#9. of this post says:
A beautiful woman will be seen as such by anyone from an average person to an Arahant.

All of the above make sense to me since I take “guṇa” to mean just a quality shared by most in a certain group of human beings, as stated in #2 of the post:

2.
“While there could be minor differences, all humans experience the same basic “qualities” or “kāma guṇa” through the five physical senses. Even when one becomes an Arahant, that will not change”.

My reasoning was that arahants still have functional indriya that can discern guṇa such as tastiness of food or beauty in a person (or a scenic place, etc.). I can see somanassa arising in an arahant due to such discernment, as in #5 of the post:

Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā)

#5
However, “tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā” in #2 above does not occur in an Arahant. Even though an Arahant will experience sōmanassa vēdanā due to kāma guṇa, an Arahant would NOT get attached to that “pleasant/sensual feeling.”

It’s just that that kind of discernment will never lead to Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccandha, or tanha in an arahant. In an average person it does.

Now,

#45548
“Kāma Guṇa do not arise in an Arahant.”

“Somanssa and domanassa are both created by the mind based on Kāma Guṇa. Thus, they do not arise in an Arahant.”

This is confusing, but that’s probably what Lal is working in his next post.

Thank you!
Lang

[cubibobi]

I read this post on ‘Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda’ quite a while back, and reread it after reading this thread.

From this, I take kāma to mean “liking kāma guna somewhat”, residual liking left in an anagami.

If this is so, is it also correct to say this about the stronger forms of liking:

kāma rāga = rāga for kāma guna
kāmaccanda = ccanda (iccha + anda) for kāma guna

Thank you!

Lang

[cubibobi]

I doubt that I am at or even near the sotapanna stage, but I’ve always thought that the understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta gets deeper with each magga phala and culminates at the arahant stage.

So, when you say:

“… I can’t truly believe in Sotapanna’s understanding of anicca / anatta “couldn’t be improved upon”.

… you are right.

A sotapanna‘s understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta is improved with each magga phala and complete at the arahant stage.

I thought I have seen this in a number of places here at PD, but I did a quick search and saw only one post that alludes to this:

Sankhāra, Kamma, Kamma Bīja, Kamma Vipāka

Under #5, it says:

… Here wisdom means comprehension of the true nature; it starts with getting rid of 10 micchā diṭṭhi and then grows as one understands anicca, dukkha, and anatta to higher levels. Wisdom culminates at the Arahant stage.

<br />
How does the understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta improve with each stage of magga phala?

I remember reading something like this; you can do a search to verify (I’m not getting hits right now):

A sotapanna understands anicca, dukkha, anatta to the extent that he will not do apayagami kamma to enjoy the pleasures of kama, and he still likes to own things that brings such pleasure.

A sakadagami enjoys pleasures but no longer wishes to own things that bring them.

An anagami is no longer attached to kama (freed from the kama loka).

An arahant is not attached to any realm (complete understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta)

 

Best,

Lang

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Jorg

[cubibobi]

• Furthermore, if anyone has supporting strong evidence for the Buddha was born in India, I don’t mind such information posted here. We need to keep an open mind.

—–

I remember seeing this a while back, which looks convincing to me.

Lumbini, the Birthplace of the Lord Buddha
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/666

 

Best,

Lang

[cubibobi]

— From Lal:”The apple that you saw is NOT the same as the apple itself. It is just an image of the apple captured by your eyes”.

The Bāhiya Sutta says something like: “seeing is just a trace of seeing, hearing is just a trace of hearing, …” (“diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, …”

These are different ways of expressing the same concept, correct?

– From TripleGemStudent
“I don’t know anything about IT, but what’s the name of the database system that works like your example?”

When I wrote that I was thinking of the Oracle Database Management System, since I know something about it. For this system, before it creates or updates a piece of data, it first writes (or logs) the instruction on how to write or update the data.

Eventually the system does write the data itself (when it is convenient to do so), but it is actually the logging mechanism that is critical.

 

Thank you!
Lang

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TripleGemStudent

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