- This topic has 7 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 6 months ago by cubibobi.
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May 22, 2024 at 8:12 am #49867pathfinderParticipant
In this “Desana” at 51.10 he states that there are 5 ways of meditation: Preaching, listening, discussing, chanting and contemplating dhamma. It makes quite a lot of sense to me since all this actions help build understanding of concepts, even in the mundane sense eg for understanding science.
He also gives the sutta name which i can’t quite catch and verify. Is anyone able to verify this?
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May 22, 2024 at 8:50 am #49869LalKeymaster
Yes. There is a sutta that describes that.
- I don’t recall the name offhand. If he did mention the name, let me know around what time, and I can listen and figure out the sutta‘s name.
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May 22, 2024 at 8:55 am #49870pathfinderParticipant
He said it at 51.19, it starts with “panca…”, but i couldn’t catch it and find online
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May 22, 2024 at 9:18 am #49872LalKeymaster
It is “Vimuttāyatana Sutta (AN 5.26).”
P.S. Even though he said, “Panca Vimuttāyatana Sutta,” it is “Vimuttāyatana Sutta.”
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May 22, 2024 at 11:08 pm #49879pathfinderParticipant
Thank you for finding it! In that sutta,
“But a meditation subject as a foundation of immersion is properly grasped, focused on, borne in mind, and comprehended with wisdom.”
“api ca khvassa aññataraṁ samādhinimittaṁ suggahitaṁ hoti sumanasikataṁ sūpadhāritaṁ suppaṭividdhaṁ paññāya.”
does this refer to formal meditation, and which type of formal meditation does it refer to?
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May 23, 2024 at 6:15 am #49881LalKeymaster
Buddhist meditation does not involve anything that has to do with this world. For example, breath or a kasina object like a clay ball for a water bowl is used by anariya yogis.
- Buddhist (Ariya) meditation is based on a Dhamma concept like Paticca Samuppada, the anicca nature of this world, etc.
- The following was extracted from the recent post “Jānato Passato” and Ājāniya – Critical Words to Remember.”
8. Cultivation of jhāna could be an important part of progresing on the Noble Path, especially if one is a bhikkhu. While the term “Ariya jhāna” does not appear in the Tipiṭaka, the Buddha clearly distinguished between jhānās cultivated by Ariyās and anāriyās. For example, when a bhikkhu named Sandha visited the Buddha, he was rebuked not to meditate like a mule (khaḷuṅka) but like a horse trained for battle (Ājānīya.) See “Sandha Sutta (AN 11.9).”
- It is good to read that whole sutta.
- @marker 2.16, the sutta describes how an anariya yogi cultivates a jhāna: “They meditate (with the mind focused on) earth, water, fire, and air. They meditate (with the mind focused on) the dimension of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, or neither perception nor non-perception.”
- Note that “breath meditation” (or anariya “kasina meditation” using a clay ball or fire) belongs to that category; it focuses the mind on the “air element.”
- How does an Ariya meditate? That is described @marker 3.13: “They don’t meditate (with the mind focused on) earth, water, fire, and air. They don’t meditate (with the mind focused on) the dimension of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, or neither perception nor non-perception. They don’t meditate (with the mind focused on) this world or the other world. They don’t meditate (with the mind focused on) what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.”
- We will discuss that further in the next post.
9. Several suttās compare the quality of Ariya and anariya jhānās to that between a well-trained horse and a lazy mule.
- In the “Bhaddāli Sutta (MN 65),” the Buddha describes the training of an ajānīya horse to have ten qualities, compared to an Ariya cultivating ten qualities. A similar description is in the “Gaṇakamoggallāna Sutta (MN 107).”
- Also, note that “jāna(to)” and “jhāna” are very different. Furthermore, it is a god idea to understand how to pronounce (and write with the “Tipiṭaka English” convention); see “Pāli Words – Writing and Pronunciation.”
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May 23, 2024 at 8:39 am #49889LalKeymaster
The above comment applies not only to jhana cultivation but also to meditation in general.
- I forgot to emphasize that above.
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June 3, 2024 at 12:24 pm #50032cubibobiParticipant
Thank you for this discussion, since I recently chatted with some people about meditation, and it was relevant to this. They practice “mindfulness”, which they consider to be “vipassana“.
Their practice was to be “fully present”, to be aware of what is going on in the moment: that one is breathing, that one is seeing something, hearing something, thinking something, etc.
This kind of practice, when cultivated well, probably brings a sense of deep calm (samatha) and is mistaken to be Buddhist meditation. Yet it is still mundane (anariya) meditation since it delves into the world of the senses.
It is good reminder for us from the “Sandha Sutta (AN 11.9)” as Lal pointed out above:
“…They don’t meditate (with the mind focused on) what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.”
Sadhu!
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