[gopinadh]

Namo Sugata

Namo Sugata

Sirs in Dhammapada Vesre 279 (Dhammapada Verse 279 ) it is stated:

“When one perceives with wisdom that all things are without a Self, then one turns away from Suffering. This is the path of purification”

Does Dhamma here also include Nirvana?  The verse includes “Sabbe” as a qualifier for “Dhamma” : “All” Dhamma.

The problem with rightly understanding this verse comes in the backdrop of  “that which is Anicca is Dukkha , which in turn is Anatta”. Therefore if one includes Nirvana Here, it tantamounts to saying Nirvana is Dukkha.

Regards Sirs. i request,  for any of the peers,  to kindly clarify or comment further.  

 

[cubibobi]

Nibbana is definitely NOT anatta. In fact, ONLY nibbana is atta. Check out this post

Anuloma Khanti and Sammattaniyāma – Pre-requisites for a Sotapanna

Right above #8, it says:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
“Only Nibbāna Has the Characteristics of Nicca, Sukha, Atta!”

Furthermore, throughout the site, we are advised to NOT take anatta to mean “without a Self“. Several posts explain the real meaning of anatta (as well as anicca and dukkha).

One such example:

Anatta is a Characteristic of the World, not About a “Self”

 

And the two posts mentioned above are part of a whole section on tilakkhana:

Tilakkhana – Introduction

 

Best,

Lang

[gopinadh]

Sir, thanks a lot. I went through the lesson(posts) indicated by you.

I submit, to request to, dwell further deeper. 

In the said  post  “anuloma-khanti-sammattaniyama-pre-requisites-for-a-sotapanna/” the word Dhamma is explained  (within the scope of the post) as referring to “sankhata Dhamma”:  the relevant content is at point 6 which i have copied below:

“Dhammā (with a long-a) are the seeds that result when saṅkhāra are cultivated. “Dhammā” means to “bear things in this world.” But anything thus generated will not lead to a “nicca outcome,” and all those efforts are fruitless. Thus, all “dhammā” generated are of “anatta nature.”

Under Abhidhamma,  Nibbana or Nirvana, is classified as an Asankhata Dhamma.(the only one)

With this as the background, i beg to again ask , that in the  Dhammapada Verse 279, the word “Sabbe” is used , which if applied to the first level catogerization of Dhamma, would imply both Sankhata and Asankhata Dhamma. How should we then understand it? 

Thats my doubt sir.  The Meaning of Anatta is not being asked/questioned .

Regards Sir. I request  , to help me to learn more (correctly) on this issue.

 

[Lal]

Gopinadh wrote: “Under Abhidhamma,  Nibbana or Nirvana, is classified as an Asankhata Dhamma.”

• First, “Nirvāna” is the Sanskrit word for Pāli “Nibbāna.” The Buddha admonished that Sanskrit should never be used to explain Buddha Dhamma. I have changed the topic to make that change. See #10 of the post “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – Distortion Timeline.”
• Secondly, please refer to the reference in Abhidhamma where Nibbāna is defined as “asankhata Dhammā.”

[gopinadh]

Thanks Sir for correcting the Title. I also apologize and am sure will be forgiven.  

Sir the following is the reference for Nibbana  being considered as an asankhata dhamma from this site

Tables and Summaries

And thus,  my request,…. to understand the matter which i raised ,  in the correct way Sir.  

Namo Sugata , Namo Sugata , Namo Sugata. 

[Lal]

I understand the issue. However, we must be able to understand the usage of words based on the context.

• Please carefully read “What are Rūpa? Dhammā are Rūpa too!” It explains the meaning of “dhammā” as “kammic energies bearing things in this world.” In particular, see #15 regarding the Abhidhamma connection.
• Also see #17 on “sabbē dhammā anattā.”
• Another confusion is to take “Dhamma” in “Buddha Dhamma” as dhammā. Buddha Dhamma refers to the teachings of the Buddha.

[cubibobi]

“Thats my doubt sir. The Meaning of Anatta is not being asked/questioned .”

Ah, I see. You provided a translation that says “When one perceives with wisdom that all things are without a Self...”, so I thought that was what you took anatta to mean, in which case I suggested you look at anatta in a different way.

So, your question, if I understand correctly, is this:

In “sabbe dhammā anatta …”, does “sabbe dhammā” include nibbana?
If it does then it follows that nibbana is dukkha.

I still consider nibbana to NOT be included in “sabbe dhammā“, and my reasoning this this:

You referenced:

Ultimate Realities – Table

The table lists 3 Ultimate Realities (paramatta dhammā), of cittā, cetasikā, rupā
The three paramatta dhammā make up everything (sankhata) in this world (of 31 realms)
Nibbana is on its own column, separate from the paramatta dhammā, and is asankhata

Regards,
Lang

[gopinadh]

Sir Lang, 

Thank you for staying on the topic. There are multiple references which “catogerize” Nibbana as paramattha dhamma. Some are also made kindly available,  on this site itself. example: Nibbana Exists

I would also like to draw due attention to what Lal Sir has said : – “we must be able to understand the usage of words based on the context”.

By trying to build on Mr Lang’s suggestion , with overall reliance on  Lal Sirs guidance , it is perhaps then, that  in the following verse 279 of Dhammapada , being discussed,  :- //sabbe dhammā anattā’ti yadā paññāya passati | atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā// …..the words “sabbe dhamma ” do not include  or refer to Nibbana/Asankhata Paramatta Dhamma.

In which case “sabbe dhamma anatta” can be mapped to Sila ( seeing Anicca/Dukkha/Anatta- is Highest Morality we can aspire to ), “Pannaya Passati”  can be mapped to Panna  & “nibbindati dukkhe” to Samadhi (in the sense of “sam” and “adhi” – gets optimally set & settled away from Dukkha and towards Nibbana).   

The result (of Development of Sila, Panna and Samadhi)  is  perhaps being signified in the same verse by “visuddhiya” which cannot be anything else than Nibbana. 

In this backdrop, reading the three verses 277 to 279 of dhammapada Link to Dhmpada V 277 to 279 makes me ponder ,  that when the events and things in our Lives are measured as Processes (Waves), we get Sankhara referred to in  the first two verses, and when we have to measure them as Points or at a Point (Inputs and outputs of these Processes),   we have our Dhammas of the 3rd verse . Nibbana , Being Pure (visuddha)  neither Wave(rs)  nor  gets  spacio-temporalized (As one more  Point in the SanSara) .But because Nibbana  exists ,  it is included as Asankhata Paramattha Dhamma in Abhidhamma , where the scope and context  are different.. 

I think this settles the issue, to my satisfaction, for which i am grateful to Lal Sir and Mr Lang. 

Its been a very plesant evening , fruitful and meditative. Thank you.

PS: Please Feel free to correct Sirs.

[Lal]

Yes. Understanding these critical concepts can be rewarding and exhilarating! The following is another way to look at it.

1. As explained in the post “What are Rūpa? Dhammā are Rūpa too!” dhammās are the kammic energies (kamma bija) that power future lives.

• We have collected possibly innumerable kamma bija in this and past lives. They can lead to rebirths in “good” and “bad” realms, but most are in “bad realms.” Even if born in a “good realm,” it will end, and one will start over.
• That is why “sabbe dhammā anatta.” No dhammā can get rid of suffering!

2. Those dhammā are created via sankhara! (That happens at the “upadana paccaya bhava” step in Paticca Samuppada.) This is a subtle/critical point: See “Bhava – Kammic Energy That Can Power an Existence” and “Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava.”

• That is why engaging in the sankhara generation is useless/unfruitful/dangerous. It mainly leads to suffering, and even more importantly, it can NEVER stop future suffering!
• That is why “sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā” and “sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā.“

Understanding the above two points can be rewarding. See, for example, “Buddha Dhamma – Noble Truths, Paṭicca Samuppāda, Tilakkhana.”

[Author]

Posts