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Terrific, so
Sangha = “san” + “gha” ⊃ bhikkhū / ni and bhauddhayā who are attha purisa puggala
… and that’s why we take refuge in Sangha in the Triple Gem? A person who is removing san is a reliable source of refuge, not someone who is accumulating san just like we are.
Awesome. “bhava” + “khaya” make great sense. Thank you!
This reminds me of other “bh” words you have explained elsewhere, such as:
buddha = bhava + uddha
bhauddhayā = bhava + uddha + yāWe would not have known on our own that “bhava” was embedded in these words. In fact, for a very long time I really wanted to know what “buddha” really meant, and English translation such as “the enlightened one” or “the awakened one” did not make a strong impression. Knowing “bhava + uddha” makes the meaning clear from the word itself.
It does seem, however, that bhikkhu and bhauddhayā mean the same thing: one who strives to stop bhava; but bhikkhu is someone who has left home, and bhauddhayā is a householder, correct?
Hi
I just read the new post:
Kamma are Done with Sankhāra – Types of Sankhāra
… and I thought this may be the right forum to post a question instead of creating a new forum.
One thing I took away from the post was that sankhāra comes before kamma; if we were to sketch the various flows of things, would the following be accurate pictures (for a normal human):
manō sankhāra → manō kamma
Or
manō sankhāra → vaci sankhāra → vaci kamma
Or
manō sankhāra → kāya sankhāra → kāya kamma
Thank you,
LangHi all,
What is the Pali breakdown of the word “bhikkhu”?
The translation of “bhikkhu” as “mendicant” or “beggar” is rampant in many sources; the same thing happens with the translation of many other Pali terms.
I felt very lucky to have come to puredhamma.net, where I can learn the correct explanation about concepts behind many Pali terms. Not only that, Lal breaks the Pali terms into components, and that makes it easier to remember their explanation; of particular help is the list of words made out of “san”.
Sadhu!
LangHi,
We’ve had quite an extensive discussion about Goenka’s technique, but I just read Lal’s wonderful post about vēdanā and would like to add a little more. The post is in the “Living Dhamma” section:
https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/what-is-vedana-feelings/vedana-what-it-really-means/
Jumping right to the end of the post, Lal summarized vēdanānupassanā as:
• vipāka vēdanā needs to be experienced with upekkha.
• Samphassa jā vēdanā are the ones to be stopped.
• Nirāmisa vēdanā are the ones to be cultivated.The first bullet practically describes the whole Goenka’s technique.
The technique does not work with Samphassa jā vēdanā because they are considered to be “reflected” in vipāka vēdanā (2 sides of the same coin). To experience vipāka vēdanā with upekkha is to indirectly experience Samphassa jā vēdanā with upekkha.
Nirāmisa vēdanā are not considered at all. Based on my understanding of this technique, here’s my speculation: all of vēdanā is to be transcended. Vipāka vēdanā, gross and subtle (such as bhanga described by Nikita) arise and pass away, and seeing this fully is seeing anicca. And transcending vēdanā (arising/passing) is to see nibbana (non arising / non passing). Saying this is somewhat like saying to get rid of all vēdanā (as Lal pointed out in the post that some people believe this), I think.
Finally, one question about the post: what about vēdanā arising from mind input? Does it also start as upekkha vēdanā, and then (for a normal human) turn automatically into dōmanassa or sōmanassa vēdanā?
Thank you!
LangHi Nikita,
The experience you described is referred to in the Goenka’s tradition as bhanga (dissolution), NOT the bhavanga (dormant state of the mind) as explained in abhidhamma.
I never experienced bhanga when I used to practice in this way, but I read extensively about the “stations” in the Goenka’s technique. You’re right that it’s not something to crave for, but it is also recognized as an important “station”, because it means that the mind is sharp enough to experience such subtle vibration.
Recall that this technique takes bodily sensations (representing vedana) as the main object of observation. It starts with the breath just to sharpen the mind for this task, and as the mind is sharp enough it can perceive sensations arising and passing rapidly.
Also, “anicca” in this tradition means the arising and passing of sensations, and so bhanga is an important stage because the mind is perceiving this arising/passing at a very subtle level.
I know nothing by experience about kasina, jhana. I just want to point out the bhanga/bhavanga distinction.
Best,
LangDearl all!
I’d like to revisit this thread after a few months’ absence. Ever since I had the fortune of knowing puredhamma.net, I have learned so much, and recently I set up a self cultivation program to make it more structured:
1) Learning Dhamma — from puredhamma.net, other books, and listening to desanas (mostly online, some of which are from Lal).
2) Stay away from dasa akusala the best I can.
3) Perform meritorious deeds (mostly dana)
4) Cultivate anicca sanna as prescribed in some posts here.I am wondering if the process works something like this: some day when my mind is ripe AND I listen to a desana, AND the person giving the desana is an Ariya, THEN there may be something in that desana that gives me a “push” toward the sotapanna stage; this would fulfill the element of “listening to saddhamma” by an Ariya.
Is this how it more or less works?
Thanks!
LangHi all,
I hope this question is suitable here: has anyone found a way to make cockroaches go away?
When I see one in my home, I use a container to catch and release it. However, my gati of wanting to kill them is strong (I almost called an exterminator a couple of times). If I can make them go away then the killing gati will come up less (I hope).
I’ve been reading the gandhabba and abhidhamma posts, so I checked out this forum. It’s fascinating to see the various kamma and correlated rebirths listed in this thread.
Thank you,
LangWith some more searching, I found this which looks like mahayaha material:
http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/maudgalyayana.htm
Regardless of the nature of the above source, it seems like he traveled, and got lost, physically, and that he was able to do this because of his supernormal power?
Thank you for the clarification of vicikicca, and especially the added explanation of khanka vicikicca.
I did some searching and found this:
Mahanama Sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.021.than.htmlI wonder if this is related to what you said about Mahanama.
For the case of Mahanama, his angry instances were then patigha and not vayapada, but he on his own could not tell the difference?
I did not find anything about the story of Ven. Moggallana getting “lost”, and here I do have some doubt, I must admit. Wherever Ven. Moggallana “went”, it would have been in one of the 31 realms, would it not? Someone of his caliber certainly would not have been lost in one of those realms. Just a thought.
Thank you,
LangThank you, Lal, very much for a detailed explanation in response to my post, especially the explanation of “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”. In this case, dhammā is synonymous with bhava, then?
After about 10+ years of practicing this, I started having doubts about whether it could remove defilement, by observing behaviors in me and in those in my group. I then had doubts about vedana being explained in this particular way to suit this technique. Your explanation clarifies a lot.
Lang
In a Goenka’s course, there is something that can be characterized as “Briefly noticing /moving on / briefly noticing / moving on”, although this is probably not what Embodied meant.
This technique takes physical sensations as meditation objects. We start from the top of the head (around a 2-in diameter circle), notice any sensations there; then we move attention down the body, in a certain order, part by part (each part around 2,3 inches).
When we notice a sensation in a part, we move on to the next part, and see what sensations manifest in this next part. On and on through the body, round after round.
The point is not to get “stuck” in a particular part of the body, not to linger there, even if it’s a pain. The next time around to that part, that pain may have changed in nature to something else.
A review of the format of the course for a moment: Day 4 introduces “vipassana” (this body sweeping technique), and from this point on, we are encouraged to sit with determination (Adithana). This means sitting for 1 hour without a major body movement. For example, opening the legs while sitting cross-legged is a major body movement; therefore, a pain in the knee will just be observed continually, round after round. Of course, not all students can do this.
“Theory” is that an intense pain may appear so solid, but underneath that is really vibration. When the mind is sharp enough, it can “dissect” the body to feel the subtlest level of body sensations, which is nothing but vibrations, and then go “beyond”.
We were also cautioned not to “look for any vibrations”, because that would be craving. We were told to observe a sensation as it is (yathabhuta), not as we’d like it to be. In a discourse, the teacher has to mention possible “stations” in case some people in the group are experiencing them.
This is a thread about Goenka’s vipassana, so I thought I’d offer one version of “Briefly noticing /moving on / briefly noticing / moving on” as it applies to physical sensations.
I have also heard of this attitude of “Briefly noticing /moving on / briefly noticing / moving on” applied to other meditation objects (such as thoughts), in other meditation techniques.
Best,
LangHello,
I joined the puredhamma.net forum recently, and am happy to come upon this forum. Starting in 2003, I attended courses, read (and reread) Goenka’s discourses and books related to this tradition, got to know many “teachers” well and the training they went through.
I put “teachers” in quote not out of disrespect, since the only teacher was SN Goenka (affectionately known among students as Goenkaji). I’ll elaborate at the end as I describe the format of the course (for those who have not attended one).
I’d like to give a brief description of the technique taught in the course, the rationale behind it (as I understand it), and then I really want to get your take on it as to whether the rationale is sound.
—DESCRIPTION OF TECHNIQUE
Most courses are residential 10-day courses (there are other courses of varying lengths).The course starts on Day 0 with the formalities: taking refuge in the Triple Gems, taking the 5 precepts, and making a formal request to the teacher to teach the technique.
— Days 1-3: “anapana” practice.
I put “anapana” because it is taken as breath meditation here. Goenka calls it respiration – natural, pure, uncontrolled respiration, nothing but respiration.A few points about the “anapana” phase:
— Observation is at the nostrils, of natural respiration (exclusively); no imagination, no inner verbalization (such as a mantra). And also, no controlling the respiration of any kind (such as in pranayama)
— Gradually, observation turns to physical sensations (if any) in the small area below the nostrils, above the upper lip.Attention is kept at the nostrils area to sharpen the mind; the smaller the area, the sharper the mind. The abdomen, for example is too big an area.
This phase is also considered the samadhi part of the eightfold path, along with sila, which is observing the 5 precepts.
— Days 4-9: “vipassana”
In the afternoon of day 4, we switched to “vipassana”, and this is considered entering the part of paññā. In vipassana according to this course, the object of observation is physical sensations (at first on the surface of the body) from the top of the head to the tips of the toes.
One moves his attention in order, from the top of the head, part by small part, to the tips of the toes. The reason for this is to eventually feel sensations, gross and subtle, all over the body. Also, one observes with an attitude of equanimity – no craving for pleasant sensations nor aversion toward unpleasant sensations.
What is the basis for this technique, and how is all this related to tilakkhana?
This is based on the mahasatipatthana sutta, and for practice, kāyānupassī, vedanānupassī, cittānupassī, dhammānupassī are reduced to vedanānupassī, and vedanā is taken to be physical sensations.
For kāyānupassī, observing kaya means observing what arise in kaya, and that is physical sensations. For the other 2 (citta and dhamma), observing physical sensations imply observing (indirectly) citta and dhamma, because of this verse:
“vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”, translated as “Everything that arises in the mind starts flowing with a sensation on the body.”
(See this verse in the satipathanna discourses in below, in the “Sources” section).For this technique, anicca means the arising and passing of physical sensations – pleasant and unpleasant. Gross, unpleasant sensations arise, stay for some time, and disappear. For pleasant sensations, they are ultimately tiny wavelets, bubbles, arising and passing very rapidly. (Just do a search for “wavelets” in the link to the satipatthana discourses).
At this stage, one realizes that there is no “I”, “mine”, “myself” behind these wavelets, and hence anattā (here meaning “egolessness”).
Finally, the mind can be so sharp that it transcends this field of sensations to go “beyond” – to non arising and passing. Nibbana!
This is just a summary of the technique (leaving out many details, even though I’m already long-winded), but I hope I got the gist of it, and now I can’t wait to ask my question (a question also asked of me many times):
Is there potential in this technique in removing defilements? Is there a sound foundation for it in the tipitaka?
— Day 10: metta
Students keep “noble silence” during the course from days 1-9: no talking to each other (asking the teacher questions is ok), no reading, no communication with the outside world. Roughly 10 hours a day are spent in sitting meditation, starting the day at 4:30 am.On day 10, students break silence and learn metta bhavana. On day 11 they leave the course.
—FORMAT OF COURSES
Lal asked whether anapana was brought to the teacher as being other than breath meditation.In the course, meditation instructions are audio from SN Goenka, who is really THE teacher. The people sitting in the front, on the “Dhamma Seat”, are assistant teachers (ATs) who conduct the course by playing the tapes of instructions and answering questions about the technique itself.
These ATs are from various backgrounds (e.g. the AT in my area is Hindu). They answer questions mostly about the technique, with or without mentioning Buddha Dhamma at large. Some even have just canned answers such as: “Just set that aside, just observe sensations with equanimity”, etc. On the question of anapana, all the ATs I personally know take that to mean breath meditation.
The most common course is the 10-day course. Another course is the Satipatthana course (7 days), in which students learn the sutta as explained by SN Goenka. (See the discourses on Satipatthana below). There are longer courses too: 20-day, 30-day, 45-day, 60-day courses. In these courses, oftentimes a third (typically the 1st third) is spent on “anapana”.
—SOURCES
I was a little hesitant to put these links here, since non students are not encouraged to read these without attending the courses (no context), but since these are in the public domain from VRI, I feel better.Discourses on Satipatthana
http://www.vridhamma.org/Printversion/Discourses-on-Satipatthana-SuttaDiscourses in a 10-day course
http://www.vridhamma.org/The-Discourse-SummariesHello,
I have another question that is more directly related to micca ditthi than how I started this thread: the 10 micca ditthi.
In this list, ditthi #5 is: “This world does not exist”.
What does this ditthi mean? Is it possible to believe that this world (and most of us know only of this world and the animal world) does not exist?
Thank you,
LangOMG what an illuminating post. Thank you!
Up to now I have known only of the mundane versions of the 4 “anussati”, all the while misunderstanding asubhanussati as foulness of the body. Also, I still have an ingrained habit of taking sati to be “mere mindfulness”, not as a mindset with tilakkana in the background.
This is after years and years of reading books that describe these terms only in this way. A lot of relearning to do!
Lang
