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“As far as I understood Goenka’s course, sankhara means deeper remaining seeds of greed and ill will.”
- That is blatantly wrong, according to the Tipitaka!
Please read the section “What Are Saṅkhāra (Mental Formations)?” in “Mental Aggregates.”
We all wish you well, y not.
- We hope to see you back in the forum soon.
- May you also attain the supreme Bliss of Nibbana!
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What do you (or Mr. Goenka) mean by “sankharas”?
- I think we can discuss things better once I understand what you all mean by “sanskaras.”
Good summary!
We could improve on that as follows (by providing a bit more information):
avijja paccaya sankhara: One acts based on ignorance of the bad consequences of such actions (if they involve raga, dosa, moha/avijja).
sankhara paccaya vinnana: One develops corrupted expectations about the future. This includes even “moral deeds” done without understanding the anicca nature. (However, moral deeds must be done regardless since that will provide the background to understand the “anicca nature.”)
vinnana paccaya namarupa: One forms mental images of the expected outcome. This is a crucial step that cannot be summarized in a few sentences. This is where “mental energy” starts creating “subtle rupa” or “dhammā” (kamma bija) that can bring vipaka, including rebirth. See, “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!“
namarupa paccaya salayatana: One uses the sensory faculties to bring the imagined expectations to life.
salayatana paccaya phassa: While trying to bring the imagined expectations to life, one engages in corrupted sensory contact, i.e., with raga, dosa, moha/avijja.
phassa paccaya vedana: One experiences a “mind-made” sensory feeling (samphassa-ja-vedana). See, for example, “Vēdanā and Samphassa-Jā-Vēdanā – More Than Just Feelings.”
vedana paccaya tanha: One automatically clings to the corrupted sensory experience. (This may happen in the “purana kamma” stage. If it happens, the mind proceeds to the next step of upadana.)
tanha paccaya upadana: One attaches to it with free will and starts accumulating “strong kammic energies” by engaging in vaci and kaya kamma in the “nava kamma” stage. See “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
upadana paccaya bhava: One forms a “state of existence.” This leads to a temporary “state of mind during life.” It also accumulates kammic energies to lead to a “new existence (bhava)” at a cuti-patisandhi moment. See “Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava.”
bhava paccaya jati: One is born into that particular bhava. Again, that happens during a life (innumerable times) and also when a human or animal gandhabba is born with a physical body.
- I know that you understand most of the above. It is to provide further clarification for the benefit of all.
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“But now that I think about it, the Buddha never explicitly grouped the three terms together as concepts..”
- That is not correct. Anicca, dukkha, and anatta are related concepts. Many suttas point that out.
- See, for example, a series of suttas starting with “Anicca Sutta (SN 22.12).” You can scan through the suttas using the arrow at the bottom of the page. There are at least 60 suttas that point out the relationship directly or indirectly.
Thank you for describing the “Vipassana-insight technique” that you learned from the Goenka vipassana courses. You described the “vipassana aspect” as follows:
“In that technique, one has to observe/know sensations over our entire body with (as much as possible) equanimity by roaming our attention over all the parts of our body in any sequence but without missing any part. Sometimes we feel sensations on some parts and there is no sensation on other parts regardless of that our job is just to know/observe the sensations by moving mind all over the body stopping at each part for about a minute. He says there are 3 types of sensations, pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. Our job is this – to not cling to pleasant sensations and just observe and know them with equanimity(that they are impermanent and aniccha) and then move on to another body part, to not despise/dislike/hate the unpleasant sensations and just observe and know them again with equanimity and then move on to another body part, same goes for neutral sensations. This way when we observe/know unpleasant sensation with equanimity, it will carry out itself and get dissipated because we refused to react with craving or ill will towards that sensation/sankhara. Same goes for pleasant and neutral sensations, which strengthens the understanding of ‘aniccha'(nothing can be maintained as per will) as well as ‘anitya'(impermanence).”
Let me ask you the following questions:
1. Why is it called “insight meditation”? What insights does it provide? Getting an insight means understanding previously unknown aspects.
2. is it possible to experience truly “pleasant/joyful” or “unpleasant/stressful” sensations in a group session like that?
- I would think that you mostly experience a neutral state of mind, especially after starting the session with “breath meditation.”
- Some people may experience unpleasant vedana due to cramps by sitting in the same place for a long time.
- In those cases, what type of “insights” can you get?
Good suggestion. Thank you!
I added it to a new “Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda – Introductory Posts” subsection in:
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Hello Feliks,
1. Yes. The verse you quoted is not in the Tipitaka. It is probably in one of the late Commentaries (not included in the Tipitaka).
- However, as Tobi-Wan Kenobi pointed out, that verse is consistent with the Tipitaka.
2. Tipitaka provides the foundation or axioms based on which the true nature of the world can be described.
- However, there can be many statements about the nature of the world and the Buddha’s teachings (that may not be in the Tipitaka) but are consistent with the Tipitaka.
- Thus, if a given statement (or a Pali verse) is consistent with the Tipitaka, there is nothing wrong with using it.
3. An example is #4 of the post “How Character (Gati) Leads to Bhava and Jāti.”
To quote #4 of the above post:
“A perpetual cycle that is ever-present in the sansaric cycle of rebirths is described in the following verse (it is not in the Tipiṭaka, and probably in a later Commentary, but makes sense):
“uppādo pavattaṁ, pavatta nimittaṁ
nimitta paṭisandhi, paṭisandhi gati.”
- “Uppāda” means arising. When āsava (cravings) arise due to the triggering of anusaya (hidden temptations), we need to stop that temptation and break the cycle at “pavattaṁ” (which means keeping it or going with it).
- If we go along with the temptation (“pavatta”), then it becomes a nimitta (literally a “sign”). A nimitta is a characteristic that is associated with that particular act. For example, for an alcoholic, a picture of an alcohol bottle or a bar (or where one drinks typically), or even seeing a friend with whom one drinks often, can be a nimitta; when any of such a “symbol” comes to the mind, it reminds of the drinking act and gets one in the “mood.”
Yes. That is correct.
The following is an easy way to avoid confusion between “bahira” and “bahiddha.”
1. When sense faculties (cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, mana) are used with defilements (raga, dosa, moha) in mind, they become “ajjhatta ayatana.”
- When that happens, the corresponding external rupas (rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phottabba, dhamma) become “bahira ayatana.”
2. The term “bahiddha” is usually used with the five aggregates or pancakkhandha (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.) These are generally pancupadanakkhandha for a puthujjana.
- They arise with a coming together of bahira and ajjhatta ayatana (for example, sota and sadda.)
- That contact leads to the arising of pancupadanakkhandha characterized by the set rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. In the above example of sota and sadda coming to contact, a “sadda rupa” is created in two steps involving bahiddha sadda rupa (with only distorted sanna; no attachment yet) and ajjhatta sadda rupa (with subsequent attachment to distorted sanna).
- With that bahiddha sadda rupa the mind will generate bahiddha vedana, bahiddha sanna, bahiddha sankhara, and bahiddha vinnana. If the mind attaches to that bahiddha sadda rupa, it becomes ajjhatta sadda rupa. Then, corresponding ajjhatta vedana, ajjhatta sanna, ajjhatta sankhara, ajjhatta vinnana will also arise.
3. I hope that will help remember the usage of “bahiddha” and “bahira.”
- “Bahiddha” is used with pancupadanakkhandha and “bahira” is used with ayatana.
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Question 8: Yes. Some people may think they can understand the concepts of anicca, dukkha, and anatta, as quoted.
- However, they may not understand it enough to do something about it.
- Superficially understanding them is not enough. One must strive to remove the conditions that keep one bound to the world of anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature.
- If that motivation comes at some point, that is when one has fully comprehended the anicca, dukkha, and anatta of the world. That is when one becomes a Sotapanna.
Question 9: Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva (in Hinduism) are Devas.
- I am not familiar with Bodhisatta Avalokitesvara. However, a Bodhisatta would generally be in a Deva realm until the time of being born a human before attaining Buddhahood.
- I am also not familiar with Buddha Amitabha. If it is a past Buddha (who has passed away), he would not be in any realm of the world. A Buddha or an Arahant will not be reborn in any realm of the 31 realms of the world. Remember that any realm of the world is of anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature. The idea is to attain Nibbana and be free of even a trace of suffering (dukkha.)
1. Writing helps me as much as it may help others.
- Sometimes, I think I understand some aspects of a given issue. However, when I started writing, I realized that related problems were poorly thought out.
- Furthermore, expressing one’s ideas in words (so that others can understand) is always challenging. I may not have described them in a way that some other person takes it in a wrong (different) way. I realized I should have worded it differently after reading their comments/questions.
- Thus, I advise everyone to start writing down at least a few notes/summaries. When you do that, questions may arise that need to be answered for clarification. Writing is a way of contemplation.
2. In the “Vimuttāyatana Sutta (AN 5.26),” the Buddha outlined five ways of practicing Dhamma to attain Nibbana. I highly recommend reading through the five ways.
- Of course, writing is not among them because writing was not common in those days. Writing is probably close to the method of reciting verses with understanding (@marker 4.1).
1. I recommend reading the “Pāyāsi Sutta (DN 23)” from @marker 5.1.
- As explained there, Pāyāsi did not believe in the rebirth process, kamma vipaka, opapatika (instantaneous) births, etc.
- Venerable Kassapa provided many analogies to explain to Pāyāsi why those were wrong views.
2. It is informative to read the whole sutta and think about those explanations.
- I could not figure out some of the analogies, and the one pointed out by Pathfinder is one of them.
- It is possible that the cultural background at that time may have played a role in that particular analogy. However, I cannot figure out the logic!
3. Ironically, Pathfinder asked this question the same day Taryal posted his comment, “Building Confidence in Dhamma.”
- At least for our time, I think Taryal’s comment provides an easier-to-understand way.
- Furthermore, as I noted below Taryal’s comments, Buddha’s teachings cannot be understood with “normal human logic.” It cannot be accepted or rejected based on “normal human logic” used by all puthujjana, including scientists. Only a Noble Person (Ariya) at or above the Sotapanna stage can comprehend that the root cause of all suffering is “distorted/false sanna.”
- I have discussed many suttas providing evidence, starting with the post “Uncovering the Suffering-Free (Pabhassara) Mind ” on 8/5/23. I pointed out two critical posts in that comment. Another is “Mūlapariyāya Sutta – The Root of All Things.”
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Taryal’s essay reads well and is a good summary.
- I thought of adding another perspective. That is to pinpoint and highlight where the uniqueness of Buddha’s teachings lies.
1. Soon after attaining Buddhahood, the Buddha realized that teaching his “newfound worldview” to humans would be challenging.
- That is described in the “Brahmāyācana Sutta (SN 6.1)” and is highlighted in the following verse (which also appears in many suttas, including DN 1, DN 14, MN 26, MN 72, MN 95.) “adhigato kho myāyaṁ dhammo gambhīro duddaso duranubodho santo paṇīto atakkāvacaro nipuṇo paṇḍitavedanīyo.”
- The translation in that link: “This Dhamma (worldview) I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.”
- “Adhigato kho myāyaṁ dhammo” means “This Dhamma I uncovered.” “gambhīro” means “profound.” Thus, the rest of the translation is good, but “atakkāvacaro” does not mean “beyond the scope of logic.”
- “Atakkāvacaro” means “beyond the scope of erroneous logic of humans” OR “cannot be analyzed/debated with mundane human logic.”
2. In the same sutta, the Buddha further explained why it is difficult for average humans (puthujjana) to see the validity of his teachings.
- Starting at marker 1.5, he explains why. That verse is better translated as “But people like clinging to sensory pleasures; they love it and enjoy it.”
- @ marker 1.6: “It’s hard for them to see the truth, i.e., idappaccayatā paṭicca samuppāda.
- Idappaccayatā paṭicca samuppāda explains how a mind starts in an undefiled state and is defiled within a split second. It also describes the accumulation of pañcupādānakkhandha.
3. Idappaccayatā paṭicca samuppāda explains how we accumulate kammic energies (that sustain the rebirth process), starting with the attachment to sensory pleasures.
- That attachment and subsequent kamma accumulation happen in two steps: “upaya” and “upadana.” Initial attachment ALWAYS occurs in the “upaya” stage (also called the “purana kamma” stage), and strong kamma accumulation occurs in the “upadana” stage (also called the “nava kamma” stage) only in SOME cases.
- An average human’s (puthujjana) mind ALWAYS goes through the “upaya” stage. That stage happens in a split second and depends only on how many samyojana (samsaric bonds) remain intact. A puthujjana has all ten samyojana intact. Since an Arahant has none left, even this initial stage is absent, and thus Idappaccayatā paṭicca samuppāda (and hence kamma accumulation) NEVER takes place for an Arahant.
4. The KEY POINT is that the “purana kamma” stage plays THE critical role of INITIATING kamma accumulation.
- If a mind avoids attachment to a sensory input from the very beginning (as in the case of an Arahant), one would have attained Nibbana.
- The reason for a mind to automatically attach to every sensory input in the “purana kamma” stage is the “distorted/false sanna” built into” a human.
5. That last sentence captures the essence of Buddha’s teachings.
- Arising of the “distorted/false sanna” is “beyond the scope of erroneous logic of humans” OR “cannot be analyzed/debated with mundane human logic.”
- It can ONLY be explained with an understanding of the Idappaccayatā paṭicca samuppāda based on “distorted/false sanna.“
- No matter how many experiments scientists conduct, they are all compatible with the “distorted/false sanna” built into humans and animals. That is the reason why Buddha Dhamma is “beyond the scope of erroneous logic of humans.”
- That erroneous logic has roots in “distorted/false sanna.“
6. I suggest reading the posts “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment” and “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- With the above explanations (#1 through #5) in mind, those two posts may help clarify the ideas/concepts I have been trying to explain for over a year.
- Most of the posts in “New / Revised Posts” are on that subject, starting with the post “Uncovering the Suffering-Free (Pabhassara) Mind ” on 8/5/23. Those interested can scan through and read selected posts there as needed.
- Of course, I would be happy to answer questions.
These questions do not help attain Nibbana.
From the “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)“:
“There are these four things that are not to be conjectured about, that could make one go mad (become a mental patient). Which four?
- The Buddha-range (i.e., Buddha’s knowledge).
- The subject of jhana (including kinds of supernormal powers that one can attain).
- The precise workings of the results of kamma.
- Speculation about the world
These are the four unthinkable things. They should not be thought about; anyone who tries to think about them will get mad or frustrated.”
The question falls under the last category. What is the benefit of discovering whether the universe is closed?
- Humans are curious about these things, but it is not a good idea to spend time on that. Buddha Dhamma is deep enough.
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