[Lal]

y not said: ” Are you sure you do not meean ‘It does not explain how giving dana by itself CAN lead to the Anagami stage.’?”

No. I meant the opposite.

This is a VERY IMPORTANT point. In fact, grasping anicca nature is very much related to it.

One would NOT really have the mindset to give “without expecting something in return” at least in the “subconscious” if one does not have some understanding of Tilakkhana. Otherwise, attaining Nibbana would be much easier, and a Buddha would not be needed.

This is why I said that from the English or Sinhala translations at Sutta Central do not really explain the difference between the last category where one gets to the Anagami stage, and all other categories where one is born in a higher realm due to giving, but would end up in the apayas in the future.

One ALWAYS has “sanna vipallasa“, unless one comprehends Tilakkhana to some extent. That understanding increasing with higher magga phala, and “sanna vipallasa” completely goes away only at the Arahant stage.

I just published the second discourse on Tilakkhana at “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.

Anyone interested should listen to that and it is better to move this discussion to the forum for discourse 2 that I just opened. Those two desanas (and the relevant posts mentioned there) need to be listened to (and read) carefully in order to comprehend this point, and in essence, Tilakkhana.

We can come back to this discussion later if needed. But for now, it is essential to understand those two discourses.

I am glad that you brought up this sutta at the right time.

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[Lal]

@y not: You are right. The English version has the full description. But the Pali and the Sinhala versions, which I looked at, do not. I normally look at those two versions, and not the English version. In this case I should have.

As far as the English translation: Translation is good for the most part, except for where it really counts. It does not explain how giving dana by itself cannot lead to the Anagami stage.

Yes. Your point that one does not need to attain jhanas to get to the Anagami stage was correct. I mentioned that in my first response.

I was not refuting your statement. I was merely pointing out the “meat” in the sutta that most translations miss: Exactly how one can get to the Anagami stage by dana or giving. It is not just the act of giving. One has to have the right mindset, and that comes from grasping Tilakkhana; that last part about the Tilakkhana and “sanna vipallasa“, is the “meat” or the essence.

In most translations, an effort is not made to point out the critical aspect of a sutta. They merely translate “word-to-word”. Most suttas are uddesa (condensed) version. One needs to explain in detail what that condensed version says; see, “Sutta – Introduction“.

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[Lal]

Yes. Sometimes it appears that some ways of detailing things are different from suttas to Abhidhamma. For example, suttas list 4 rupavacara jhanas, and Abhidhamma lists five. It turns out that the first jhana in the suttas can actually split to two, where vitakka and vicara are suppressed in two stages.

But most people do not experience two stages, and that is why the suttas mention 4 instead of five.

Abhidhamma is very refined. So, I expect that we may able to resolve this issue about the samyojana at some point.

I did check and Abhidhamma version is a bit different from the suttas which state the 10 samyojana as: sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, kama raga, patigha as five orambhagiya samyojana (removed by the Anagami stage) and rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja (removed at the Arahant stage).

For Abhidhamma: Khuddhavatthu Vibhanaga, Dasaka Niddesa: “Tattha katamāni dasa saṃyojanāni? ¬Kāmarā¬ga¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, paṭi¬gha¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, mānasaṃyojanaṃ, diṭṭhi¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, vici¬kicchā¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, sīlab¬bata¬parāmā¬sa¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, bhava-rāga¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, issāsaṃyojanaṃ, maccha¬ri¬ya¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, avijjā¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ—imāni dasa saṃyojanāni.”.

Bhavaraga, issa, macchariya instead of rupa raga, arupa raga, uddacca in the suttas. So, these differences are in the higher 5 samyojana.

Now, bhava raga could be the same as rupa raga and arupa raga, since kama raga is already removed by Anagami stage.
Therefore, issa and macchariya seem to represent uddacca. I do not know the answer to why that is. Hopefully, the answer will be found soon.

It needs to be kept in mind that all these are highly reduced by the time one gets to the Anagami stage. For example, an Anagami would not have issa (jealousy) at the level of a normal human. So, it could be that whether it is uddacca or a combination of issa and macchariya, that represents the “sense of me” that we have talked a lot about under various topics at this discussion forum.

[Lal]

@y not : “ It turns out that Suttacental does have the full text after all!”

No. The Sutta Central version does not have details about different births, other than Anagami, for “other types on state of mind”.

Regarding sanna vipllasa: Those sanna vipallasa are removed permanently at different levels at different stages of magga phala. A significant part is removed at the Sotapanna stage (regarding apayagami akusala), and those regarding sense plessures are reduced at the Sakadagami stage and removed at the Anagami stage. All (including jhanic pleasures) are removed at the Arahant stage.

When they are removed with magga phala, they do not come back even if one is reborn in another galaxy or anywhere in this world, if that is what you were asking.

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[Lal]

@ y not: Yes. There are many suttas such as the one you quoted (which I had not read), where it is shown that magga phala can be attained without going through any jhana.

But this sutta is interesting in that it says Anagami stage is possible by alms giving or making offerings (dana).

On the surface it appears that one may not need to have a comprehension of Tilakkhana or the Four Noble Truths in order to attain the Anagami stage.

The relevant passage is at the end of the Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52: “yvāyaṃ na heva sāpekho dānaṃ deti; na pati¬baddha-citto dānaṃ deti; na sannidhipekho dānaṃ deti; na ‘imaṃ pecca pari¬bhuñjis¬sāmī’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘sāhu dānan’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘dinnapubbaṃ katapubbaṃ pitupitāmahehi na arahāmi porāṇaṃ kulavaṃsaṃ hāpetun’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘ahaṃ pacāmi, ime na pacanti, nārahāmi pacanto apacantānaṃ dānaṃ adātun’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘yathā tesaṃ pubbakānaṃ isīnaṃ tāni mahāyaññāni ahesuṃ, seyyathidaṃ—aṭṭhakassa vāmakassa vāmadevassa vessāmittassa yamadaggino aṅgīrasassa bhāradvājassa vāseṭṭhassa kassapassa bhaguno, evaṃ me ayaṃ dānasaṃvibhāgo bhavissatī’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘imaṃ me dānaṃ dadato cittaṃ pasīdati, attamanatā somanassaṃ upajāyatī’ti dānaṃ deti; api ca kho cit¬tā¬laṅkā¬ra¬citta¬parik¬khā¬raṃ dānaṃ deti. So taṃ dānaṃ datvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā brahma¬kāyikā¬naṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati. So taṃ kammaṃ khepetvā taṃ iddhiṃ taṃ yasaṃ taṃ ādhipaccaṃ anāgāmī hoti anāgantā itthattaṃ.”

However, in order to have that mindset (“yvāyaṃ na heva sāpekho dānaṃ deti; na pati¬baddha¬citto dānaṃ deti; na sannidhipekho dānaṃ deti; na ‘imaṃ pecca pari¬bhuñjis¬sāmī’ti dānaṃ deti;..”), one has to comprehend Tilakkhana.

This is what I will be discussing in the next desana on Tilakkhana. The ‘right mindest” comes with anicca sanna.

A normal human does pretty much everything with the nicca sanna. Therefore, even when giving, even if one may not be thinking about “getting something in return”, that sanna is with that person. In suttas this is called “sanna vipallasa”. In Sinhala it is called “vipareetha sanna”. I have used the phrase “vipareetha sanna” in several posts, I need to change that to provide the Pali phrase “sanna vipallasa”.

You can do a search at the Puredhamma site with the key word “vipareetha sanna” and there are several posts.

The bottom line is that in order to have the right mindset to reap more benefits of giving, one must have the anicca sanna to some level. That anicca sanna must be at a high level to reap higher benefits of giving and to become an Anagami.

I will try to incorporate this to the next desana on Tilakkhana, because it is an important point. Thanks to y not for the comment.

Finally, to provide the web link, type the title (say, the name of a sutta), select it, and then click “link” on the formatting options. That will open a link window, asking for the url of the web page. Now open that web link in a different window, copy it and paste it. You may also want to select “open in a new window”, so that the reader can access that web page in a different window, while staying in the forum.

Here is the web page that y not referred to: Generosity, dana, caga

It is simple and will save a lot time for others to try to find the web page. Thanks.

[Lal]

@y not: The Sutta Central Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52 does not have the full version (even in the Pali version).

Could you provide the reference where the 6 realms of rebirths are actually listed?

[Lal]

Thanks, Akvan.

I had not read the kama sutta that you quoted. It is VERY long.

We need to be very careful about the descriptions in various suttas. Some of them discuss just jhana in general, which seem to be anariya jhana. But a few suttas like the Jhana Sutta that you quoted refer clearly to Ariya jhanas.

I found the following sutta which clearly state the difference between Ariya and anariya jhanas. I need to add this sutta reference to one of those posts at the website that I referred to.

Paṭhamanānākaraṇa Sutta (AN 4. 123): “ Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati. Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tab¬bahu¬la-vihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahma¬kāyikā¬naṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati. Brahma¬kāyikā-naṃ, bhikkhave, devānaṃ kappo āyuppamāṇaṃ. Tattha puthujjano yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā nirayampi gacchati tiracchā¬na¬yonimpi gacchati pettivisayampi gacchati. Bhagavato pana sāvako tattha yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā tasmiṃyeva bhave parinibbāyati. Ayaṃ kho, bhikkhave, viseso ayaṃ adhippayāso idaṃ nānākaraṇaṃ sutavato ariyasāvakassa assutavatā puthujjanena, yadidaṃ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.”

Translated: “There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality (kāma), withdrawn from akusala, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there—fixed on that, dwelling there often, not losing the jhana—then when he dies he is born with the devas of Brahma’s retinue. The devas of Brahma’s retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal realm, or to the state of the hungry ghosts. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, attains Parinibbana. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between a Noble disciple and a normal person who had not heard the Noble Truths (assutavatā puthujjanena), in regards to the gati and birth.”

I hope this answers your root question. As I discussed in those posts at the website, when one attains the first Ariya jhana, one has become an Anagami. He/she will be born in that brahma realm and will attain Parinibbana there, as clearly stated in the above sutta.

In other words, kama raga is to be completely REMOVED to get to the first Ariya Jhana. It is only temporarily suppressed (vikkhambana pahana) for the anariya jhana.

[Lal]

The link that you provided goes to “59. Anatta­lak­kha­ṇa­sutta”.

On the sutta list under Khandha Saṃyutta at Sutta Central, it is also listed as “Pañcavaggiya [Anattalakkhaṇa]”.

So, it could be also listed as Pañcavaggiya Sutta in some places. But this is a very famous sutta, which I had always known as the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta. I believe this is the sutta that Ven. Sariputta delivered to explain in detail the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. It explains the concept of anatta.

[Lal]

Akvan said: “In most places aniccha, dukka, anaththa is referred to as the thilakkana, and you refer to it as three marks of existence.”

I have used both “three characteristics of nature” and “three marks of existence” to translate the Pali word Tilakkhana to English. If you look at popular English translations, people have used both those translations.

I also use just Tilakkhana at many places without translating too. That is the best, but one who is not familiar with the Pali word may get stuck. So, I have to use those common English translations too.

Akvan said: “However, in most sutta’s aniccha, dukka, anaththa are referred to as sanna”. and “But can you share any sutta’s that refer to aniccha, dukka, anaththa as lakkana?”

Different suttas have used both those terms. For example, Sabbasava sutta used “anicca sanna“. Anattalakkhana Sutta has “anatta lakkhana” in the title itself.

We should not get hang up on words. As you said:”I know that talking about whether it is a lakkana or a sanna will have no difference to the understanding of aniccha, dukka and anaththa”. That is exactly right. One just need to comprehend what is meant. Understanding is deeper than just description by words. On the other hand we have to use words to convey the idea to others. As long as the idea gets across that is fine.

Key Pali words like anicca and anatta cannot be translated word to word. They could be described in several (related) ways.

This is why my description of anicca or anatta may vary somewhat from post to post. But they are all inter-consistent.

[Lal]

Akvan said: “This corresponds with the Kama Sutta, where it is mentioned that kama is suppressed while in the first jhana upto nevasanna na sanna.”

It would be helpful if you provide the link to the sutta, and the verse (in Pali or English).

I do not see any such description in Kāma Sutta (Snp 4.1).

Please provide the link to the sutta, and the verse (in Pali or English) regarding other questions too. That will save me a lot of time scanning through a sutta and trying to find the relevant verse.

[Lal]

Siebe said: “What happens with an arahant after dying?”

You can ask the same question in many ways. But you get the same answer from the Buddha, per Tipitaka. The same thing happens to an Arahant, as to what the Buddha said what will happen to him.

I am copying my reply to you in the “The Infinity problem – BIG doubt” topic:

In his very first desana, the Buddha clearly stated that in order to stop all future suffering, the goal of any person should be what he had attained. Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11): “..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”

Translation: “..The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence for me.”.

How more clear can one be?
And there are many more suttas stating this clearly.

The concept of Nibbana has been explained in many posts, including in the subsection: “Nibbana“,and in the post, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“.

Answers to your questions can be found in those posts and elsewhere in many posts. We also discussed these, over and over, under different topics in this forum.

You do need to stop pushing your philosophical ideas at this forum. That takes the focus away from useful discussions. I am going to remove you as a forum participant if you post again like this without citing evidence from the Tipitaka. If you have evidence to the contrary, you can state that and provide evidence from the Tipitaka.

There is only one reliable source of Buddha Dhamma, and that is the Tipitaka. That is the sole basis for this website, and therefore, for the discussions at this forum.

P.S. I do understand that “stopping rebirth” or “stopping existence” could be an unsettling thought for many people. That is the ultimate goal, but one who is starting on the Path (even a Sotapanna) should not contemplate on that. One could start at the stage where one does not even believe in rebirth. I have emphasized this point at the “Living Dhamma” section, and many other posts throughout the website.

I also recommend listening to the discourse in, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.

[Lal]

I think everyone has agreed that it is better to discuss other more important issues.

However, it has been a useful discussion, and I thank C. Saket for bringing it up for discussion.

I am closing this topic. I can re-open it if someone has an important, relevant issue to bring up on the topic. Please send me an email at [email protected].

P.S. I updated the post, “The Infinity Problem in Buddhism” on August 13, 2022.

[Lal]

These questions are answered in a series of 3 posts:
Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala

I think the second post gives those references, but it is good idea to read all three to get a good idea.

I have removed the word “automatically” from the original post you referred to. Yes. It is confusing . Thanks.

[Lal]

Siebe said: “ The idea that an arahant or tathagata exist after death (parinibbana) is, as far as i know, not answered with a “Yes” or “No”..”.

In his first desana, the Buddha clearly stated the goal of Buddha Dhamma. Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11): “..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”

Translation: “..The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence for me.”.

How more clear can one be?
And there are many more suttas stating this clearly.

You need to stop pushing your philosophical ideas at this forum. That takes the focus away from useful discussions. I am going to delete posts like this in the future. If you have evidence to the contrary, you can state that and provide evidence from the Tipitaka.

There is only one reliable source of Buddha Dhamma, and that is the Tipitaka. That is the sole basis for this website, and therefore, for the discussions at this forum.

P.S. I do understand that “stopping rebirth” or “stopping existence” could be an unsettling thought for many people. That is the ultimate goal, but one who is starting on the Path (even a Sotapanna) should not contemplate on that. One could start at the stage where one does not even believe in rebirth. I have emphasized this point at the “Living Dhamma” section, and many other posts throughout the website.

I also recommend listening to the discourse in, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.

[Lal]

Akvan quoted the “Purisagati Sutta (AN 7.55)” and said, “So, it doesn’t make sense that a antaraparinibbai will be a human gandhabba.”

Thanks for pointing out that sutta. I was not aware of it, but it does describe the antaraparibbayi state, and in addition, that there are 7 types of antaraparinibbayi Noble persons.

1.There are 10 samyojana (sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, kama raga, patigha, rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja). These are the bonds that bind one to the samsara.

Out of these, three (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) can bring future rebirths (i.e., grasping a NEW bhava, at the cuti-patisandhi moment). They are called uppati patilabhi sampyojana.

The other 7 are called bhava patilabhi samyojana. That means until those are removed, one is not released from a bhava.

2.There are 7 anusaya (ditthi, vicikicca, kama raga, patigha, bhava raga, mana, avijja).

Here bhavaraga anusaya is basically the “desire to live” regardless of the which bhava one is in. Mana, bhavaraga, and avijja are the last ones removed. Of course they keep reducing all through the other stages of Nibbana.

One is not fully released (parinaibbana) until all seven are removed.

3. Now the above sutta is about those Noble persons that have removed the three uppatti patilabhi samyojana, in addition to sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, and patigha.

The sutta specifically says, orambhagiya samyojana (the first five) have been removed. So, one is free of kama loka.

In addition, those Ariyas have removed rupa raga and arupa raga. Therefore, that person cannot grasp a NEW bhava in kama loka, rupa loka, or arupa loka.

However, one is not yet an Arahant because three samyojanas are still left: mana, uddacca, avijja. And one has three anusaya also left (not completely removed): , bhava raga, mana, avijja, as stated in the sutta.

4. Therefore, when the physical body of such a person dies, the gandhabba caomes out and is “stuck” in that state. He/she cannot grasp a new bhava, but cannot attain Arahanthood since other defilements are left.

That is why he/she will stay in that gandhabba state until the kammic energy for the human bhava that he/she grasped at the last cuti-patisandhi moment runs out.

5. The Waharaka Thero had told others that he had removed all three uppatti patilabhi samyojana, but had not removed others like mana and avijja fully.

This is why it was suspected that he would have attained (one of) the antaraparinibbana state described in this sutta.

However, it is also possible that he removed all remaining defilements close to the dying moment and attained the full Nibbana (parinibbana). The fact that his “dhatu” were recovered points to the latter conclusion.

6. Finally, the sutta mentions “anupadaparinibbana” state, which is the state an Arahant is at until his/her physical body dies; “anupada” means “close behind”. He/she has completed all requirements and will attain “full Nibbana” when the physical body dies. Gandhabba will not survive without that physical body.

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