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Welcome to the forum, drs8!
“..when this attachment to the body lessens to a degree, you become Sotapanna. And when this attachment lessens more and that is Sakrudagami. And once the whole attachment to the body completely gone, this person becomes Anagami.”
Of course this is wrong.Even to attain the Sotapanna stage, one needs to remove not only sakkaya ditthi, but also, vicikicca and silabbata paramasa; see, “Sakkāya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View?“.
Furthermore, contemplation of the 32 body parts only helps partially in removing sakkaya ditthi. Sakkaya or “sath” + “kaya” means one takes not only one’s body to be “good” but also one’s actions in accumulating things in this world to be “good” and “beneficial”. Kaya can mean body and actions.
We can also see this clearly in the Satipatthana sutta. Kāyānupassanā is only one of four anupassana, and contemplation of the 32 body parts is only part of Kāyānupassanā; see “Maha Satipatthana Sutta“.
One becomes a Sotapanna by comprehending the fruitlessness of doing “apayagami immoral things” to gain sense pleasures. Then one has reduced kamaccanda, vyapada, and moha to kama raga, patigha, and avijja levels.
One becomes a Sakadagami by attenuating kama raga (specifically removing vatthu kama) and patigha. Then one becomes an Anagami by removing all kama raga and patigha. In both stages, avijja is also reduced.
Finally, one becomes an Arahant by removing the higher five samyojana of rupa raga , arupa raga, mana, uddacca, and avijja; see, “Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process“.
So, it is easy to see that one cannot even become a Sotapanna by just doing the contemplation the 32 body parts.
I am not familiar with the Thai Forest tradition or Ven Ajahn Mun’s biography. Are you certain that this is all they do (contemplation the 32 body parts)?
Welcome to the forum, Peter!
Kalama sutta actually does not have any deep meanings than what is actually stated. But it is critical one for one to get to started on the Path.
I was just giving the gist of it. But I don’t think what I stated is in contradiction with either of the translations you quoted. Both translations give the basic idea. The Access to Insight translation could have been better, if they did not try to just translate word-by-word.
In the sutta, the Buddha kept asking the Kalamas to put themselves in the “receiving end” and to see how they would feel if such immoral actions are done to them: This is to basically to make them understand why one needs to stay away from dasa akusala. His questions were mostly on the obvious ones: killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, etc.
Then he asked them to compare those conclusions with various teachings to come to one’s own conclusions, not just because even the Buddha says they are bad. That is the way to decide which teaching is correct. He said not to just accept teachings via oral transmission, lineage, testament, canonical authority, etc. If one uses the above technique, one does not need to “buy into” any one of such teachings.
This is what I always try to emphasize. One HAS TO start practicing Buddha Dhamma with a focus on dasa akusala. That is the foundation.
At the end of the sutta the Buddha emphasizes that if one avoided those akusala (immoral deeds), one would be safe in all four possible situations regarding wrong views.Even if one did not believe in kamma vipaka or paralowa or paro loko (of gandhabbas) –which belong to the 10 types of micca ditthi – one would not be in peril. But IF THEY WERE TO HOLD, then one would fine too. This is an important point especially today, because there are many who do not believe in rebirth or even kamma vipaka.
However, the key point that is not specifically stated in the sutta is that, when one starts abiding by those obvious “good actions”, at some point one will start realizing that kamma vipaka have to be experienced in future lives. Then at some point one would be getting rid of such wrong views like not believing in rebirth (10 types of micca ditthi).
Only when one has removed all ten types of wrong views that one will be able to go deeper and understand concepts like Tilakkahana (anicca, dukkha, anatta).
Many people try to understand deeper concepts like Tilakkhana without paying much attention to avoiding those basics. Mind is a very complex entity. It is contaminated by dasa akusala, and that leads to an agitated mind. Of course, one cannot even see how agitated one’s mind is, until one sees the relief (niramisa sukha) that is gained by staying away from dasa akusala.
The bottom line is that Kalama Sutta is actually one of the simplest suttas. It helps one to get started on the mundane eightfold path, before starting on the Noble Eightfold Path; see, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart“. But it is a critical sutta, because without that foundation, one will be wasting one’s time just reading about deeper concepts.
Deeper concepts need to be COMPREHENDED not just MEMORIZED, and that REQUIRES a mind relatively free of dasa akusala, especially the 10 types of micca ditthi.
I really don’t know how many people actually “get this point”, but I keep emphasizing it at every opportunity.
@Embodied: As far as I understand, Brahman and Brahma (or more accurately Maha Brahma) are the same.
Of course the Buddha has talked about them. This is the same Baka Brahma mentioned in the Brahmanimantanika Sutta; see # 12 in “Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means“.
Those Brahmas (and ancient Hindu yogis) thought that life in the Brahma realm is forever. So, they consider getting to that Brahma realm via jhanas is the same as attaining Nirvana (Sanskrit word for Nibbana) or the “deathless state”.
That is because they all do not have the capability to see past lives beyond the lifetime of that Brahma realm.
Tobias said: “At night I woke up and suddenly found myself in outer space surrounded by flower blossoms and turning around..”
Is it possible that you were actually out there in space, with the gandhabba body?
In my case, I am positive that did not happen. I could open my eyes and see that I was in my room. Then I closed my eyes and was able to see it again. So, I never had the gandhabba coming out.
By the way, your description reminded me of the accounts of Robert Monroe in his book, “Journeys Out of the Body”. He has written several books about his “out of body experiences”.
I hope these discussions would not deviate out attention from focusing on Dhamma. But it is good to know that such experiences may happen. I never strive for any such experiences. If they happen, they happen.
Furthermore, it may never happen to some people. So, this is NOT to be taken as a REQUIREMENT. I hesitated to write about my experience because of this. We must remember that there were Arahants, who never even had a jhanic experience even; see, for example, the Susima Sutta.
By the way, Sutta Central has changed its sutta format. I liked the previous format, but may be they will make this better with time.
Johnny said: “Do future events appear like vivid imagery in your mind?”
I can describe a recent experience of mine to give an idea of probably what Donna (inflib) sees. May be Donna can describe the difference in what she “sees” and what I describe below.
I was meditating with my eyes closed. All of a sudden, I started “seeing” a whirlpool. It was not a static picture. It was as if I was seeing a rotating whirlpool, with the water spinning. Then the scene evolved into a flowing mass of water. It was crystal clear, even though I had my eyes closed. That was at the end of last December. Since then I have seen the same thing twice. I don’t know what that is about (and why I keep seeing the same thing).
With that experience, now I can relate to Waharaka Thero’s experiences and Donna’s. You actually “see” things with your eyes closed. It is much more vivid and much more “real” compared to dreaming. It was as if I was looking at a real whirlpool, and then seeing a flowing mass of water (I did not see anything else other than water). Waharaka Thero, for example, had the capability to just focus on someone’s house (far away), and “see” the house as it is, for example.
This must be how gandhabbas also “see” things. Many people who have described their Out of Body Experiences (OBE) must have “seen” their own bodies from the above this way; usually that happens in heart operations when the gandhabba is “forced out” due to stress. Remember that most of these people are not even Buddhists.
Good question, Embodied.
#1 is correct. Atta can mean “truth”, “having full protection”, “having essence”, etc.
– Of course, anatta is the opposite.Regarding #2: Attā (with a long a at the end) does not mean “me’. It is just a “person”. It is normally used in sentence to say “this person”.
– There is no word anattā (with a long a at the end), as the opposite of that attā.
Could you describe to us briefly what is involved in the practice of Druidry?
I am not very familiar with even paganism, but I understand Druidry is a version of it? I took a quick look and there does not seem to be much information on the web.
What do you do to practice? I see that it involves “living in harmony with Nature”. Is it close to Amish practices?
You said, ” For example, if I look at a playing card, she can tell me what it is, not just one, but the whole deck.”
Can you do the following experiment?
You pick up 10 random cards from the pack without looking. You should look at just one card within those 10 cards. Then, as I understand, she should be able to tell the identity of all 10 cards that you have in you hand?
If so, ask her to write down on a piece of paper the identity of the 10 cards. Then you look at the 10 cards and write them down too. Then compare whether they match.
Do you need to be face-to-face to do this or can you do it over the phone too?
It would be amazing if she can do it over the phone, even if you are looking at all 10 cards that you are holding.May be I did not understand exactly what you were saying. If I did, then that would be a good experiment to do.
Very interesting, Donna! Thank you for sharing this interesting information.
These are called punna iddhi, which basically means (moderate) supernormal powers that certain people get at birth, due to previous meritorious deeds.
They can vary widely. Some with such capabilities can see living beings with fine bodies, such as devas or gandhabbas (They ususally call them ghosts). Some can get one’s own gandhabba to come out of the physical body (this is called astral travel, and is more common). Some can remember previous lives, etc.
But this is the first time I heard about being able to read the whole stack of cards another person is holding, just by the person holding the cards look at just one card. This is more complex than the above cases that I mentioned, because this involves two people.
The only case I know something like this is the abilities of Waharaka Thero. I have not met him, but he has mentioned some cases in his desanas.
Basically, one’s “mano loka” (mind plane) can be accessed by oneself only. As one’s mind is purified, one’s ability to remember things gets better. Then at some point, one may be able to see many lives in the past.
The ability to access another’s mind plane is harder. You said the women in your family can do this. So, any given person has this ability? Can you also do this if a non-family member is holding the cards? Any other information would be good, only if you feel comfortable.
Furthermore, is there any difference between your capabilities and any one of those family members?Welcome to the discussion forum, Rhys_H!
Yes. The Arahanthood is the ultimate achievement, which is the “perfect state”, once attained lasts forever, per Buddha.
I am not sure how familiar you are with Buddha Dhamma, the Theravada version. Even the Theravada version has been contaminated over the past 1500 years or so, and thus there may not have been that many Arahants in recent years, especially among humans (there could be more in other higher realms).
I discuss this in the post:”Incorrect Thēravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline“.
There has been a revival in recent years due to my Noble teacher, who passed away a year ago, likely as an Arahant: “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro“.
There are indications that there are many people now with at least lower stages of Nibbana (Sotapanna,etc), thanks to his efforts.Also see the posts in the section: “Nibbana“.
@Embodied: Yes. While words like anicca and anatta cannot be described in a few words, it could be good to have a “brief phrase” for bhavana purposes.
One should use a phrase that one considers to be most impactful; a phrase that gives the “sanna” about that word. Here are some examples:
Anicca – that nothing in this world can bring a permanent happiness in the long run.
Dukkha – despite our struggles, we will be subjected to much more suffering than pleasures if we remain in the rebirth process.
Anatta – therefore, one is truly helpless in this struggle to attain “something of essence in this world”. That is just an illusion.
These may not exactly right for you. Each person may “get it” a bit differently. However, all possible meanings are inter-related.
By the way, you need to think a bit more carefully before posting a question. This particular question was not formulated correctly when you first asked it, so I did not answer. Others can get confused if a question is not asked the right way.
Same is true for the question that you asked a little while ago, on a different topic on asura devas. Please read the previous comments and replies carefully again.
Human realm is also a good realm. Think about that.
In kama loka, aggression is there in both human and deva realms. Of course, it is less in deva realms compared to the human realm.
Only in brahma realms, aggression is not manifested. Of course, most of them have not removed dosa (hate): Those who get there through anariya jhana still have dosa as anusaya (hidden or suppressed); when they are reborn in the human realm, dosa will again be manifested.
P.S. Tavatimsa devas are sometimes called “sura devas” in comparison to “asura devas“, and the war between the two sides is sometimes called the “sura asura war”.
“Sura” of course is the opposite of “asura“: clever and “quick thinking”.Johnny said: “Aggañña Sutta and this video have proven Darwin’s theory of evolution to be false!”
I normally do not like people posting too many youtube videos. But this is a good one.
It is to the point and there are several key contradictions with Darwin’s theory of evolution are pointed out. As it says, “Time does not make impossible things possible”. Indeed!
For those who are really into this subject, there is an in-depth analysis of why evolution theory is wrong in the book, “Signature in the Cell”, by Stephen C. Meyer (2009).
Embodied said: ” in other words, Anatta might also be envisaged as an impersonal bio-psy energy dynamics…?”
No need to make it complicated. The perception of a “me” is going to be there until one feels that there are fruitful and worthy things to be had in this world.
As one makes progress, and understands not only the futility — but also the dangers — in cravings for worldly things, one will gradually realize that there is nothing in this world to be possessed, to take as mine.
To give an example, suppose one has been keeping in a safe a necklace that one believed to be worth millions of dollars. The one day, he gets it evaluated by a professional and it turns out to be worthless. Would he still keep it in the safe? Would he still crave for it?
Craving for things in this world can be even worse (dangerous), because one could do immoral things to get them, and then be subjected to bad kamma vipaka.
To give another analogy, if that necklace somehow had a built-in miniature explosive device, and he found out about it, he would not only lose craving for it, but would be scared and quickly get rid of it.
In short: The sense of “me” is going to be there until one perceives that there things in this world that are worthwhile to be taken as mine.
But of course, it is not easy to get rid of these cravings (cannot be done by force). It comes with cultivating wisdom (panna), by learning Dhamma (and contemplating), the real nature of things in this world.
Of course, one could feel the relief as one gets rid of the worse of those cravings (which could lead to immoral actions), and thus one would know the benefits of lose cravings. That is how one makes gradual progress.
When I start describing this, I probably repeat what I said in the “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta” section. When one has gone through those posts, then if one could spend a day going through the five discourses (in sequence) in “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“, then one may be able to get a good idea of what I am trying to say.
The sense of ‘me” is the last one to lose (at the Arahant stage). So, one should not start there. One should start with avoiding the worse of dasa akusala that one is engaged in. Keep in mind that micca ditthi can be the worst: 10 types of micca ditthi first, and then the deeper level that is removed by grasping Tilakkhana.
There are two types of asuras.
One type in the apayas: one of the four lowest realms. They are born there due cultivation of bad sankhara because of aimless, lazy gati (depended on others). These asuras are said live in the oceans and mountains on Earth (around us). They are called Vinipatha Asuras.
The other type are actually “asura devas” who live in the Chathurmaharajika deva realm. They are said to constantly fight with Tavatimsa devas headed by Sakka.
Also see, “31 Realms of Existence“.
P.S. I just revised “Asuras” to “Vinipatha Asuras” in the post, “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, sīla, Samādhi“.
