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It is essential to sort out the two types of “right thinking” or Samma Sankappa. In fact, each of all 8 steps on the Path have two types. These have been discussed, but I will summarize again.
The problem with most translations is that they do not pinpoint the key issues, but rather translate Pali word by word. Pali is a phonetic language. One has to get the meaning of the overall sentence. So, let us discuss the essence.
Eightfold path (either one) works step-by-step. Both sets of eightfold paths start with “right vision”. One’s thinking is ALWAYS based on one’s knowledge or more correctly panna (wisdom).
This is not book knowledge, but knowledge about the wider world of 31 realms.
It comes in two stages:- First getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi involving the laws of kamma, knowing the difference between right and wrong (dasa akusala), etc.
- At that point, one’s mind is capable of grasping the Tilakkhana (anicca,dukkha, anatta), the Three Characteristics of Nature.
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When one understands the bad consequences of those 10 types of micca ditthi, one has the ability to CONSCIOUS THINKING (vaci sankhara) WITH THAT MINDSET. Then one’s mind becomes less burdened and one starts feeling the first stages of niramisa sukha.
- First one realizes that it is unfruitful AND dangerous to engage in actions, speech, and thoughts (vaci sankhara), that could lead to births in the apayas.
So, I hope you can see the difference between the “right thinking” at the mundane path and the Transcendental (Lokottara) Noble Path.
Of course, the details can be found in many posts throughout the website. I have been emphasizing the importance of understanding vaci sankhara; see, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
It is important to realize that Samma Sankappa are Vaci Sankhara of the “correct” or “moral” type. They get to deeper stage with the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
In effect, the two types of “right thinking” are the following:
– The vaci sankhara involved in the mundane path (understanding the laws of kamma, realizing that rebirth must be valid, etc), which makes it possible for one to get to the second stage.
– The second stage starts with vaci sankhara BASED ON understanding the unfruitfulness and dangers of EXCESS attachment to sense pleasures that could lead to rebirths in the apayas (which leads to the Sotapanna stage).
– After that there are more steps leading to higher stages of Nibbana based on deeper understanding of the Tilakkhana.Of course, those two steps are then followed by right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness (sati), and right “state of mind” (samadhi). Again, each of those are of two types, as discussed in other posts.
Tobias said: “The kusala-mula PS operates only for Ariyas, starting at the Sotapanna stage. For a normal human (a “worldling”) the akusala-mula PS is always applied. See also https://puredhamma.net/forums/topic/what-is-intention-in-kamma/”
This is not right. If I implied that, I must have made a mistake. One can do kusala even before the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
We need to remember that amoha is not necessarily the same as panna, and thus anyone can act with alobha, adosa, amoha.
Tobias asked: “But an Arahant has removed all six causes (also alobha, adosa, amoha). Can I conclude that an Arahant does not have the kusala-mula PS? Then which type of PS is still executed by an Arahant?”
Good question. One can learn a lot by carefully thinking about this.
- One is born in this world due to the six root causes.
- One is born in the apayas or dugati due to bad gati arising mainly due to lobha, dosa, moha. The akusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts take place with these three root causes.
- One is born in the remaining “good realms” or sugati due to good gati due to alobha, adosa, amoha. The kusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts take place with these three root causes.
- Therefore, NEITHER of the PS cycles operate for an Arahant. If either one operates, that would lead to making new kamma and new bhava and more rebirths.
- For those who are into Abhidhamma, a citta vithi always starts with an external sense input due to a past kamma, i.e., due to a kamma vipaka. So, an Arahant will have sense inputs, and experience the vipaka during the first stag of the citta vithi (those citta before the vottapana (“V”) citta in the citta vithi; see #15 of “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna“.
- A decision is made at the vottapana citta automatically (based on one’s gati) on how to respond to the sense input. Then appropriate javana citta will run, and new kamma will be done.
- But an Arahant has removed ALL gati, and as we discussed above, his/her javana citta will have no kammic power.
- Furthermore, it is essential that one stay away from dasa akusala (and thus minimize akusala-mula PS), and also to CULTIVATE kusala-mula PS.
- That is Anapana (Satipatthana). And that in the long run will lead to cultivation of panna (wisdom), and to the Arahant stage via four intermediate stages.
- All six root causes are eliminated at the pinnacle of panna, at the Arahant phala moment.
Yes. An Arahant‘s citta vithi will still have the 7 javana citta. However, they don’t have any kammic energy.
It is to be noted that it is those javana cittas that that provide power to body muscles to do physical work, and even speech. That is in addition to kammic energy in them.
For example, when you lift an extra heavy package or when pushing a stalled car you give a bit more “oomph” to those javana citta.
In other words, a javana citta may impart kammic and physical energy. An Arahant‘s javana citta provides only physical energy for necessary physical work and speech.
However, that physical energy is only a small fraction of the energy needed, for example to lift a package. Most of the energy comes from the food we eat. The energy of javana citta only sends a message to the brain. That is why one is unable to do much physical work when physically weak.
I started writing and it got longer and longer!
Yes, Siebe. Your above descriptions are mostly correct. Specifically:
“I have understood, but correct me if i am wrong, that the javana citta’s of an arahant are not akusala anymore but also not kusala.”
Correct. Arahant’s citta can never be akusala; they are not kusala either (because there are no “ku” or defilements to get rid of “sala”). But they can be punna kamma. See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“. They are called “kriya citta”, which just lead to actions.
“Behaviour based on gati is Always reactivity and cannot be called noble.”
Yes. An Arahant has removed all gati (for the same reasons that he/she does not generate any kusala/akusala citta mentioned above).
But an Arahant may still have some kammically neutral habitual actions. A young Arahant jumping over mud puddles mentioned in the Tipitaka is one good example. Another Arahant actually could not help uttering “rough speech” out of samsaric habits. But there was no javana power in that speech. This is why we cannot judge other people; they only know that they did not have bad intentions (no dosa cetasika in those cittas).
@y not: This is why I say one should follow the Path step-by-step. Don’t worry about not loving your children, because that is not going to happen any time soon. Just focus on first getting to a stage of “peace of mind” by staying away from dasa akusala, and getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi. That is, if you agree with my explanations.
Buddha dhamma can be very deep; one can read posts in the latter subsections of the “Living Dhamma” section and see that. But most will not be able to fully comprehend those. One should start at the first subsections, and other sections at the website: “User’s Guide to Pure Dhamma Website“.
It is of course up to each individual. I am not going to comment any more on this issue. It is pointless to have this abstract discussion.
It is impossible for one starting on the Path to understand the mind of an Arahant. One may even get discouraged, because that is not what a normal human envisions as “happiness” (i.e., sense pleasures). But what the Buddha said is that it is those sense pleasures that lead to suffering. That is contradictory to normal logic of a human. That is why the Buddha said: “This Dhamma has never been known the world” or “pubbe ananussutasu Dhammesu“.
The problem is that most people don’t want to start at the beginning either. I always say, one has to learn to basic addition before trying to learn calculus; one could waste a lot of time trying to do that. But in a way, I am glad that we had this discussion, so that anyone interested can read through the above posts, and see arguments with different point-of-views. No need to go through this again!
I also know that there are at least a few who have comprehended this, and are pursuing the Path correctly.
@y not: First, what I see is what you see at the forum. I can delete existing posts, but if a post cannot be seen I cannot do anything about it. I have deleted those other posts you made about a missing post. They clutter the board. Please make sure to type the post in a word processor so that you can re-post if it does not get posted for some reason. That has never happened to me, so I don’t know why it happened to you.
You said: “For myself, the hard bit, not so much to understand, but to accept, is that even doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned.”
Who said that “doing good is in the long run a hindrance and must be abandoned“? Did I say that or did the Buddha say that? I cannot imagine ANYONE sane saying something like that.
You said: “As I read Siebe, what I think he means is that when a Buddha or Arahant or even anyone else with the gati to do good and distributes Metta all around, he does that automatically, meaning HE HAS NO CHOICE. If you do something because you have no choice, then where is the merit?”
If you do good things automatically ALL THE TIME, you have attained Nibbana. There is no need to accrue any more merits at that stage. However, Arahants keep on doing punna kamma or such such deeds, simply because that is the right thing to do.
One needs free will to choose between acts that lead to suffering and those lead to happiness. Once one attains Arahanthood, one has attained permanent happiness. Why would one need to have choice at that stage?
This is a problem with philosophers. They are not focused on the real issue, but on nonsense like choice, free will etc. That is because they don’t have any idea about Nibbana or ultimate happiness. There is a difference between NEED for free will (which a normal human ALWAYS has), and NOT NEEDING free choice when one gets to the pinnacle (one has reached there by MAKING the right choices); one will NEVER do the wrong thing at that stage.
Siebe said: “Isn’t all re-active behaviour a kind of delusion?”.
I do not understand why people try to make things complicated than necessary.
Whether automatic or not, anything related to dasa akusala are bad and should not be done. How hard is it to understand that? If that is not right, tell me why not.Siebe said: :”I understand an arahant or Buddha does not automatically”
Where did you see that? Of course, a Buddha or an Arahant would do things right automatically. They have removed their bad gati/asavas by the process that I described above. So, even their mano sankhara (that arise automatically) are without blemish.
Siebe said: “The ultimate goal, at least that’s how i understand this, is not to do automatically good by force of habit,but to end such forceful behaviour.”
Tell me why you do not want to “good things automatically”? What is wrong with that? This is the strangest thing I have ever heard! What is the point of that? Why would anyone ever want to stop doing good things???
“My questions is when you reflect on the Dhamma, time to time, your mind wanders to the people who might have offended the Dhamma. And me being very attached to this teaching, there is a friction. Has anybody overcomed such situations.”
I have. I do not worry about all those who don’t believe in Dhamma: laws of kamma, rebirth, apayas, etc. AND how to stop future suffering (understanding the causes of suffering and getting rid of those causes).
Thinking about them can generate bad thoughts and those are bad for ONESELF. Remember that those are bad vaci sankhara too. Such thoughts do not benefit oneself OR others.
What one CAN DO is to help those who are interested in Dhamma. That is all one can do: “Attā Hi Attanō Nāthō“. One is one’s own refuge. Othrers can only help.
The only way to help those who do not pay attention (who are ignorant of Dhamma) is to do metta bhavana.
Siebe said: “i have come to see that to do really right, i have to be beyond the force of all habits..”
This is the point. One has to break away from old habits (they are closely connected to one’s asavas/gati). The key here is to stop those vaci sankhara (fantasizing/enjoying) bad conscious thoughts.
Then, over time, such asava/gati will wear out, and one will not generate such bad thoughts. That is what leads to niramisa sukha.
@y not: “doing right” means doing what is moral (not doing dasa akusala).
If an action, speech, thought involves asobhana cetasika (greed, anger, jealousy, etc) that is “not doing right”. These are akusala kamma.
What is right are actions, speech, thoughts that involve sobhana cetasika (generosity, compassion, giving, etc). These are kusala/punna kamma; see, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.
This is what the Buddha explained to the Kalamas in the Kalama Sutta: “Don’t do things to others that one would not want others to do to oneself”.
Johnny asked: “Does the Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda cycle depict the mano sankhara process of how nature impart kamma vipaka onto us?”
There are three steps involved and I am going to describe them using the post, ”Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna” :- We get sense inputs (seeing, hearing, etc) due to kamma vipaka. These are analyzed by the first part of the citta vithi (see #15) labelled “kamma vipaka”.
- Then, based on out gati, a decision is made by the mind on how to react to that sense input at the vottapana (labelled “V”) citta in the middle of the citta vithi.
- Now, javana citta run based on that decision. Those initial javana citta are therefore mano sankhara. They get started without our conscious thinking, just based on our gati.
Now, a normal person without knowledge of Dhamma will just go along with those same lines of thought. If it is an attractive subject, they get attached to it and think about how to possess/enjoy it, for example. Then one may speak to oneself and also speak out (vaci sankhara), and do bodily actions (via kaya sankhara), to get that enjoyment. If those involve dasa akusala, then one generates new bad kamma. That is why that part of the citta vithi is labelled “new kamma“.
However, within a few seconds of starting that process we will become aware of those “bad vaci and kaya sankhara”, if one is being mindful. Thousands of citta vithi with such bad thoughts may run during that time initially.
Now, when we become aware of those ‘bad thoughts”, we should think about their bad consequences and immediately stop them. THIS IS WHERE WE HAVE CONTROL.
Initially, this is hard. The temptation is to just continue with those enticing thoughts. And when one first starts, one may be done with talking/acting by the time one even realizes it. But one should not be discouraged, and make a determination to “catch it” early next time.
With time, one will be able to “catch such bad thoughts” at the early vaci sankhara stage (before using speech or the physical body via kaya sankhara). So, now one will have “good javana citta” in the “new kamma” stage of the citta vithi (per #15 of that post).
Then, with time, ones’ gati/asavas will change. Then when a new sense input comes, the mind will make the “right decision” at the vottapana (“V”) stage.
That is a summary. I recommend one prints that post and spend some time going through it carefully. It may be easier if one has some knowledge in Abhidhamma. Even otherwise, just try to get the general idea.
Please ask questions and GET THIS RIGHT. This is the key to making progress in meditation (whether in formal meditation or in responding to real life situations).
P.S. I am glad that Siebe started this discussion. Let us make sure to get any remaining questions answered.
P.P.S. I am not saying it is necessary to learn Ahidhamma. It is necessary to learn the meanings of the terms mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara: “Sankhāra – What It Really Means” and “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
For those who are familiar with Abhidhamma, the post, “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna“, could provide more deeper knowledge.
We can discuss both aspects here, so that one can come back and review things here.Sybe07 said: “Can we say that due to sankhara we operate in a re-active way? In a certain sense we are at that time not really ourselves. Our behaviour is just habitual, conditioned, like an animal or machine.”
This is a critical point that I have been trying make all this time. See, “Sankhāra – What It Really Means” and “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“. Please read the posts that I recommend carefully, and ask questions from there if something is not clear. It is important to understand what is meant by each of the Pali words mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara.
The way we first react (automatically) to situations is habitual and are based on our gati/asavas. The thoughts that are habitually and automatically generated are mano sankhara. We don’t have control over them DIRECTLY.
However, we do have control over vaci and kaya sankhara that are associated with our conscious thoughts (talking to oneself), speech, and bodily actions.
When we start acting mindfully (Anapana and Satipatthana), and catch any “wrong/immoral thoughts that arise”, and willfully control our vaci and kaya sankhara, our gati/asavas will change for the better. That in the long-temr will lead us to respond automatically the right way, i.e., mano snakhara will change accordingly. That is how we make progress on the Path.
y not said: “What of the possibility of the memory of them (past lives) being triggered by the experience of ‘deja’ vu’ when visiting certain places or meeting certain people?”
Yes. This is fairly common. Some people can go to a far away, previously not-visited, city and just walk around as if they had lived their lives there. Sometimes we meet people and make bonds with them (or in some cases dislike them) instantaneously, as if we had known them all our lives. This has happened to me several times.
The mind can normally recall only within a given lifetime (and even that is spotty or not consistent). In some special cases, children can recall their past life, if that life was in the current human bhava. Even then, as the child grows, the mind gets “cluttered and covered” by the increasing load of external sense inputs (i.e., the child gets pulled into various attractions and angry situations). So, normally, by the age of 8-10 years, the child would forget all about that past life.
However, when one cultivates jhanas, pancanivarana (that cover the mind) get worn out or at least suppressed, and some people who cultivate jhanas are able to recall past lives. Some can extend that to many past lives, and even births in other realms.
In any case, even though we cannot normally recall past lives, our gati and asavas have been molded by those past lives. But it is not like we have had the current gati/asavas extending too far back. During some births, one’s gati can change drastically, and one’s environment (family/friends) play a key role. This is why we all have been in all apayas, as well as in most of the higher realms too.
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Just to make sure, sankata includes BOTH living and inter things. Both have mind as the precursor, i.e., it is those sankhara that give rise to sankata.
Remember that paticca samuppada cycles start with “avijja pacca sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana“, and end up in “dukkha domanassa upasaya sambhavanti, i.e., to all suffering. It also lead to the arising of THINGS that help induce suffering.
I have not yet discussed paticca samuppada cycles that discuss the creation of inert things via sankhara. That is not necessary to attain Nibbana.
We need to see how our conscious thoughts (vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara) lead to births in various realms, and first suppress/remove those sankhara that lead to births in the apayas.
Just published a new post on two key Dhammapada verses regarding this topic:
“Manōpubbangamā dhammā..“.
