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Embodied said: “Briefly noticing /moving on / briefly noticing / moving on and so on.”
Let us take an example. Suppose you are sitting cross-legged at one of these meditation retreats. You start feeling pain in your legs. That is a vedana. What would be your response? Do you just notice that and move on without doing anything to get relief from that pain?
Anyone else can ask any question about how they deal with any specific type of “vedana” experienced during meditation. Rather than talking theory, it would be more beneficial to discuss actual situations.
@y not: The perception of “me” or “myself” (which is called asmi mana) is going to be there until the Arahant phala is attained.
So, that is who that will be doing all those things that you listed.
Also see: “Sakkāya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View?“.
I think it is the second stanza that Donna (inflib) is referring to:
“Mūlaṃ papañcasaṅkhāya, Mantā asmīti sabbamuparundhe
Yā kāci taṇhā ajjhattaṃ, Tāsaṃ vinayā sadā sato sikkhe.”Which is translated at that website as:
“One should completely extract
The root of proliferation and reckoning—
The notion, “I am the thinker”.
One should train to dispel whatever craving
There is inside, ever mindful.”I think a better translation would be:
All papi sankhara (apunna abhisankhara) that arise need to be rooted out via breaking the asmi mana spell (mantā), which is the lens (kāci) of tanha that is inside (in one’s mind). By being ever mindful (sadā sato), one should train (sikkhe) to be disciplined (vinayā).This is the ultimate goal, to attain Arahantship by breaking asmi mana (which is the mana in the last five samyojana removed at the Arahant stage). As we have discussed before, this asmi mana is the “perception of a self”.
In the rest of sutta, steps to be taken are stated.
But it is critical to understand that breaking asmi mana samyojana comes at the end, not at the beginning when one is striving to be a Sotapanna or even an Anagami.
Thanks to Cubibobi (Lang) for providing a detailed description. This clarified to me what is done in the Goenka “Vipassana sessions”.
- Lang said: “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”, translated as “Everything that arises in the mind starts flowing with a sensation on the body.”
- Then the mind starts automatically generates mano sankhara based on how that sense input matches with one’s gati.
- So, the critical step here in Vipassana (or Anapana or Satipatthana) is to be aware of those mano sankhara that automatically arise due to one’s gati (based on sense inputs from ALL SIX senses), and not to let “bad vaci sankhara” to take hold.
- To look at it from a different angle: the mind starts making good or bad judgments based on initial “vedana” as described by Paticca Samuppada: “salayatana paccaya phassa”, “phassa paccaya vedana”, vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya upadana, upadana paccaya bhava, bhava paccaya jati.
- Again, the point is that not only “kaya vedana” but vedana due to all six senses lead to the mind making good or bad decisions, which end up in “sabbe dhamma” in the above verse, “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhamma”, which now we can translate as, “all types of vedana coming together to lead to each and all dhamma”.
- Just by being aware of body sensations, one cannot remove defilements (greed, hate, and ignorance, where ignorance includes both removal of the 10 types micca ditthi and then comprehending Tilakkhana). That should be obvious even without such a lengthy and deeper explanation given above.
– Vedana is not just “body sensations” involving just kaya or the body.; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
– Each and every thought is initiated by a sensation received by any of the six indriya (or ayatana): cakkhu (seeing), sota (hearing), ghana (a smell), jivha (a taste) ,kaya (body sensation), and mano (dhamma coming to the mind).– For example, classical music may trigger joyful mano sankhara in an older person who loves classical music, but may generate irritating thoughts in a teenager who loves loud music. Then one may generate more vaci sankhara (good or bad). In another example, a habitual thief may see a valuable item, may get attached to it instantaneously (mano sankhara) and decide to steal it (vaci sankhara), which in turn lead to kaya sankhara to grab the item and flee.
– The second aspect is to cultivate any good mano sankhara that arise – Both can be investigated based on Tilakkhana, as one’s understanding of Tilakkhana grows.
– Here “salayatana” means “six ayatana“: cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, and mano.
– These “bhava” are the energies created by the mind for future births, and dhamma in this context is another term for “bhava”; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.– Now it should be clear to those who have studied Pure Dhamma posts on these subjects that there is a definite answer to Lang’s second question: “Is there potential in this technique in removing defilements? Is there a sound foundation for it in the tipitaka?”
So, I can say without any doubt that such kind of “vipassana” cannot lead to Nibbana.
Lang said: “In this list, ditthi #5 is: “This world does not exist”.What does this ditthi mean?”.
It may sound strange, but people have all sorts of ditthi. The Buddha listed 62 such views in the Brahmajala sutta, I believe.
An example of this wring view is “Solipsism“.
To quote from the above article: “..solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one’s own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind.”By the way, the next line in the 10 types of micca ditthi is, “paralowa does not exist”. This paralowa or the “nether world” is the world of gandhabbas. Even many Theravadins today do not believe that gandhabba concept is correct: “Hidden World of the Gandhabba: Netherworld (Paralowa)“.
Tobias said: “Why should one not work as a healer? If understanding of the Buddha Dhamma is established and good deeds by healing people can be done, why not do that?”
- The part of the verse he quoted is, “Or [earn money] as a healer”. The Pali verse is, “Tikicchaṃ māmako na seveyya”. Here, mamaka means “devoted to”, and tikiccaha is the art of healing or how to practice medicine. So, a better translation is, “should not get into practicing medicine”.
- I am not familiar with the background for this sutta. But it seems that someone is asking the Buddha how should a bhikkhu live his life to “Mūlaṃ-papañca-saṅ-khāya”, or “to uproot the defilements from his mind”.
- One becomes a bhikkhu to stay away from the need to make a living and to devote most of his/her time to pursue Nibbana. In order to do that, he/she must be supported by lay people. Now the way to “pay back” those lay people is not by doing all those things listed in the sutta, but just by explaining Dhamma to them.
- And in the rest of the sutta, the Buddha describes how a bhikkhu should devote his life for that goal.
- A bhikkhu should not do ANYTHING to earn money, but also AVOID becoming healers (doctors) people or in general helping with their mundane necessities (doing astrology, helping with fertility issues, etc that are listed in the sutta). This may sound contradictory to being compassionate, but it really is not.
- The role of a bhikkhu, as far as lay people are concerned, should be to explain Dhamma and help them attain Nibbana.
- If bhikkhus start helping out lay people with their mundane necessities that will be a HUGE distraction. Furthermore, helping someone to attain Nibbana will save one from unimaginable suffering in the future.
- By helping one to recover from an illness is be just to be healthy in this life. There are doctors available for that task, and that was true even at the time of the Buddha. All other “mundane tasks” that could be helpful can be done by people in those professions.
- In fact, it is good to keep this “big picture” in mind for lay people too. Helping one learn Dhamma, and thus getting them close to Nibbana, will help remove so much FUTURE SUFFERING, compared to any temporary relief by any mundane actions.
- But that DOES NOT mean one should stay away from helping others.
- Of course, we should help people at every opportunity. Anyone who comprehends Dhamma will not shy away from helping others even in mundane matters whenever a need arises.
P.S. Thanks and much merits to Donna for sending the code to fix the formatting error numbering!
P.P.S. . There is more information on this topic at, “Abstaining from damaging plants and seeds“.
Embodied asked: “If you were to define a Sotapanna by describing his/her demeanour and mental state in everyday life how would you describe it ?”
I have changed the title of the topic to state clearly what the topic is about: “Mental State/Demeanor of a Sotapanna”.
It is a good question, but always try to make the title meaningful and descriptive too.
Sotapanna is the first stage of Nibbana, which by definition is “ragakkhaya, dosakkhya, mohakkhaya” or “removal of greed, hate, ignorance from one’s mind”.
– At the first stage of Sotapanna, one would removed the panca nivarana: kamaccanda, vyapda, thinamiddha, uddacca kukkucca, vicikicca. These are what “covers” one’s mid and makes one CAPABLE of doing apayagami actions under extreme conditions.
– When pancanivarana are removed PERMANENTLY, one starts experiencing a change at least over time, lessening of the burden on the mind. Desire to enjoy sense pleasure is likely to continue unless one makes rapid progress. Stopping the rebirth process does not happen until the Arahant stage, but the sense of well-being starts actually at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.The main thing that happens is a drastic change in one’s world view. Even though one may still enjoy sense pleasures, one has clearly seen the fruitlessness and even dangers in attaching to sense pleasures. One will definitely not do any apayagami actions even spontaneously (and that is the key). So, the first thing is a change of mindset.
Outward appearances is more tricky.
Akvan said: “There were sotapannas who were married and had 5-7 kids, some married to hunters, others who were kings, princes, princesses, millionaires, businessmen and even prostitutes.”That is correct. One cannot recognize a Sotapanna by his/her outward appearance. However, what Akvan cited above were the exceptions rather than the norm. They of course make a point: One’s outward appearances could be deceiving.
– One would normally become more “settled down” and “more responsible”. That could be sensed by one’s close family/friends. Certainly, the person him/her self would realize the change at least over time.@Embodied:
Love is a complex word. It can have sexual connotations or just caring for another person, like one’s children. So, kammic effects always depends on the context.Learn to use Pali words, so that there will be no confusion.
Kama is attachment to sensual desires.
Kamaccanda (kama + icca+ anda) is the worst, being blinded by sense desires and committing immoral acts like rape or sex out-of-marriage. Such acts can lead to birth in apayas.Kama raga is the next level, where one may enjoy “accepted” sense pleasures, including sex in marriage. A Sotapanna belongs to this category.
Kama raga is reduced at the Sakadagami stage and is eliminated at Anagami stage. Then one does not have desire for sex or “tasty stuff”, even though one will still taste things the same way as any other. It is important to realize that forcefully avoiding such sense pleasures DOES NOT make one an Anagami. One just loses the desire when one comprehends the anicca nature better.
Metta is compassion for all beings, not necessarily for a given person (even though that is fine too). And it has the mundane version (“may all beings be healthy and happy”) and the Ariya version (“may all beings be free of suffering in the rebirth process”). That is a very short description.
ALWAYS try to learn the basics. Once one understand the basic concept, it is easy to remember. Good knowledge of dasa akusala and the concept of “san” is important. Make use of the links in a given post to read related material, as time permits. The post, “User’s Guide to Pure Dhamma Website” and “Pure Dhamma – Sitemap” could be useful in addition to the “Search box”.
I just realized that one issue with new people who come to the website is that these days I am writing mostly advanced posts. So, they may not even realize that material in the older posts and sections have some of these explanations.
These are general remarks that are not directed at Embodied.
Then again, the question about anussati and anupassana had not been discussed earlier. So, I don’t want to discourage asking questions either. Just make some effort to see whether the answer to the question is already there at the website.
@y not:
There are many levels of micca ditthi or wrong views.- The 10 types of micca ditthi must be removed to become a Sotapanna Anugami, i.e., to be able to comprehend Tilakkhana.
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At that point, one still has micca ditthi (wrong views) because one still has not grasped the Three Characteristics of Nature, i.e, Tilakkhana.
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The Tilakkhana are comprehended in stages of Nibbana, starting with the Sotapanna stage. Thus, one gets rid of all wrong views only at Arahanthood.
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Kama raga comes under kamaccanda. See the post on dasa akualsa.: “Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)“.
The main menu at the top of the site is pretty good. But if you are just using a phone, use the “Search” box on the top to find relevant posts or scan through “Pure Dhamma – Sitemap“.
y not said: “This person’who has wrong views. What about a person who does not have wrong views? Will THIS person’s attachment and yearning to be with them in his last moments still be a hindrance?”
A person with no wrong views will not yearn to be with them.
Always think about whether a dasa akusala involved (and which one it is) in the mind of the person in question. That is the easiest way to figure out.
New post published: “Anussati and Anupassanā – Being Mindful and Removing Defilements“.
Discussion at: “Anussati and Anupassanā – Being Mindful and Removing Defilements“.
“I feel (vedana touch) the ground under my soles (touch) but only for a short time, not more than 3/5 secs thus preventing the formation of ayatana.
I see a “beautiful” building but only for a short time, not more than 3/5 secs, thus preventing the formation of ayatana.”
I am not sure what you mean by above. Are you trying to suppress all sensations?
We should not make things hard. All one needs to do is to be aware of whether greed or hate arise in one’s mind, and to suppress those. It is very simple. The hard thing is to catch it quickly. But with practice, it becomes easier.
An indriya becomes an ayatana only when the sense experience taken in by the indriya (say eyes), make one’s mind form greedy or hateful thoughts. If what is seen makes one greedy or hateful, stop looking at it, and focus attention on something different.
On the other hand, if it makes one’s mind calmer by keeping a Buddha statue in the meditation room, that helps train the mind to use that image as one to focus on. Then, if even one does not have the Buddha Statue when one sees a tempting figure, one can bring the image of the Buddha statue the mind and thus help take the mind away from that tempting figure. That is just an example. Each person need to come up with ways on how to take one’s mind away from greedy or hateful thoughts when they arise.
– Another way is to think about the harmful consequences of focusing on that tempting (or hateful) visual. This is what the Buddha recommended as a general solution.y not said, “If A hurts B, then it would be B’s turn to hurt A in this life or in a future one.”
It does not normally work that way, even though it can happen in some specific cases.
Especially in “samphassa ja vedana”, it is not due to a specific kamma. As the name says (“san” + “phassa” rhymes as samphassa), it arises due to “san” (lobha, dosa, moha) that is in one’s mind as one’s gati.
“Samphassa ja vedana” is explained in the post, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“, as I mentioned earlier in the discussion.
It is imperative that one must understand the key concepts:
“Key Dhamma Concepts“. This is a general comment, not directed at anyone in particular. I have no way of knowing who knows how much.Johnny quoted from someone else: ““I dont understand how cravings or desires are evil..”
This is why it is important to learn and UNDERSTAND the meaning of Pali words and not just use English words.
The word “craving” is used inappropriately to translate Pali words like tanha, chanda, and kamaccanda.
What is bad is tanha: To get “attached” something bad via lobha, dosa, and moha.
On the other hand, chanda (which translated as craving and sometimes liking) is one of the satara iddhipada: chanda, citta, viriya, vimansa. In order to seek Nibbana, one needs to have chanda (liking or desire) for it. Again, one must see that this “desire” for Nibana is without lobha, dosa, moha.
Kamaccanda is “kama” + “icca” “anda” or becoming blind due to desire for sense pleasures (and thus tempted to do immoral things). The word “desire” is used commonly to translate kamaccanda and that could be problematic. “Defiled desire” is a better translation, but it may be awkward to use.
This is why it is better to just use the Pali word, especially if there is a possibility of ambiguity. The key is to see whether asobhana cetasika (bad mental factors) are involved, especially lobha, dosa, moha.
So, one must be able to know the meaning of the Pali word, and not just use apparent meaning of English words that are being used indiscriminately today.
@y not: “Lal said: ‘The mental pain that you talk about in the fourth paragraph is “samphassa ja vedana”. That is not due to previous causes’.”
I was talking in the context of kamma vipaka, meaning kamma done in previous lives. In particular, the physical body that arises due to kamma vipaka from previous lives.
Nothing happens without a cause. “Samphassa ja vedana” arises due to one’s defiled gati, and that did not just materialize at that moment. But if one can get rid of all defilements (i.e., become an Arahant), those “samphassa ja vedana” will stop arising from that moment. But an Arahant cannot get rid of the physical suffering due to one’s body until the death of the physical body. That is what I meant.
Y not said: “Why should someone suffer for so long, millions of years, and in intense, unimaginable agony for just one act, however odious, and however many and full of hatred in the mind the days that led to the crime.”
This is an important point: Kamma vipaka that can be experienced once born in a certain realm, is almost never due to just one act, even though one act is likely to act as the primary cause at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
When one is born in a certain realm due to a given primary kamma, that body can now receive many more kamma vipaka appropriate for that body.
We get this human body due to a good kamma done in a previous life. But once born a human, this human body is able to receive many other good and bad kamma vipaka that this physical body can “cope with” (. For example, a human body cannot experience good kamma vipaka that can be experienced with a finer deva body. It also cannot experience the harsh vipaka that can only be experienced with a body of a “hell being”. We may have both those kinds form the past. Unless one attains a magga phala all those can bring vipaka in the future when born in the appropriate realm. This is what is important to understand.
For those who like to dig deeper: samanantara determines what vipaka can be extracted from anantara: “Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya“.
P.S. Another important point: It is true that the kamma beeja grasped at the cuti-patisandhi moment determines the DURATION of the particular bhava. But we need to realize that a kamma beeja is almost never due to just one act, even though one act could act as the primary cause, for example an anantariya kamma. Usually, a kamma beeja has contributions from many similar kamma. One does an exceptionally bad act because, in general, one has such gati that have been cultivated over many lives. Kamma is complex. The Buddha said not to try analyze it in detail, because other than a Buddha cannot.
