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Welcome to the forum, Ashok!
Each human life is a different gandhabba.
But in the case of twins, the zygote splits into two and effectively become two.Even if the two split cells are identical, there are no two gandhabbas that would be identical (no two humans are the same). Gandhabbas are “selected for a given zygote” based on how well gandhabba’s gati match the gati of the mother and father. That “matching process” selects the “best matching gandhabba” available at the time. This is why there are instances where a child may grow up to have very different gati compared to either parent.
In the case of two gandhabbas taking possession of the split zygote, while they are likely to have similar gati, they can never have exactly the same gati.
As the twins grow, they will start exhibiting their own “inherent gati”, and in some cases they may be quite different. Of course, their “original gati” will change towards some common gati too, since they will be brought up in the same environment.
The conception process is discussed in the post,”What does Buddha Dhamma (Buddhism) say about Birth Control?“.
1. This world of 31 realms is very complex. While most of us are not exposed to beings in other realms, there are some who can communicate with beings in other realms. See the post:”What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?”
In most cases, it is better to avoid communicating with such beings. They may have their own agenda, and may try to steer one in a path they want to. When one firmly gets on the Noble Path, no such being can influence. Usually, when “good beings” want to help, they do that to the best their ability without trying to communicate.
As with people, it is always beings with similar “gati” that are attracted to people. So, when one’s gati change for the better, they automatically move away. But before that, they might try to influence one not to steer away from them.
2. Sometimes people do “no thought meditation” based on even instructions from other humans. I know that some people in Sri Lanka believe that Nibbana means getting rid of thoughts. They try remove all thought objects (arammana) that come to the mind. This is dangerous, because one can become “asanna”, i.e., lose “sanna” or perception.
If one has been doing such meditations, one’s brain could be wired for that. It is possible to re-wire the neurons by staying away from such types of meditations and doing it the right way. See the posts: “Truine Brain: How the Mind Rewires the Brain via Meditation/Habits” and “How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View“.
All these problems will go away slowly once one is firmly on the Path. Best to keep in mind that no one else (or no other being) can influence you if you know you are on the right Path.
1. First of all, Kamma is one of those things that the Buddha categorized as “acinteyya”, not fully graspable by a human other than a Buddha.
2. There are two key factors to be remembered in evaluating how to assess a kamma vipaka:
–which of the dasa akusala is the intention? That is the “cetana” in “cetana ham bhikkhave kamman vadami”.
– then the strength of the kamma vipaka is based on the “level of consciousness” or “qualities” of the living beings affected by that kamma.
-That is the clearest way to analyze any given situation.
3. For example, in the recent second desana on Tilakkhana, I discussed the case of a person killing a bunch of people with a bomb. His intention (cetana) was to kill. Thus the dasa akusala involved is “panatipata”, that of taking a life.
-Now to the second step. He may not even know who was killed. By some coincidence if a parent of the killer was killed by the bomb, then he would have done an anantariya papa kamma. If an Arahant was killed, the same. If a Sotapanna was killed, then it would not be a anantariya kamma, but still equivalent to killing thousands of normal humans.
-So, it is important to understand that “cetana” is which of dasa sakusala are in one’s mind when a kamma is committed. It could be more than one. In the case of the bomber, there is micca ditthi, and likely greed also, in addition to “panatipata”.
-So, it is good to analyze various situations with the above two steps.
4. In the particular example discussed, it is not necessary that person A had to have killed B in a previous life. It is just that person A had a previous kamma vipaka waiting to bear fruit and he himself made the conditions right by going to a bad neighborhood, possibly at a bad time.
Person B could have been just happened to be there with the appropriate mindset to do the killing. It is also possible that there could have been some connection between the two in the past, but that is not necessary.
We all have done innumerable kamma in the deep past and when suitable conditions appear they are brought to fruition.-But there are some accounts in the Tipitaka, where a person “avenges” a previous death by killing. But in those cases, person A would have killed person B in a previous life by beating him, for example. Then person B would have made a determination, “I will kill you in the future in return”.
-But if person B in the given case kills A by shooting from a distance, A would even not know who killed him. He may die instantly, not even being aware that he was shot by someone. Of course, the “nature” would know (we are all connected), and therefore, that could act as an additional factor.
– This point of “we are all inter-connected” is now proven by quantum mechanics: “Quantum Entanglement – We Are All Connected“.
– This is a key factor in understanding kamma/vipaka, and is my next project. I believe that quantum mechanics can show this at an even deeper level.
Hi Akvan, Johnny,
Actually, anicca nature is INHERENT in the things in our world. It is rooted in the udaya (arising), vaya (destruction) of a sankata, and also the viparinama nature of a sankata in between udaya and vaya.
This is why Udayavaya Nana is of importance for the Sotapanna stage; see, “Udayavaya Nana“. Those can be called characteristics of nature or marks of existence or Tilakkhana.
Understanding those characteristics of all sankata are helpful in cultivating the anicca sanna. Reading about the anicca nature may help remove the ditthi vipallasa about anicca. But cultivating the anicca sanna needs a bit more work. This is what I will be discussing in the next desana.
Pancakkhandha are mainly mental; see “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)“.
But those mental impressions arise from our interaction with those material things (sankata) out there in the world. Those material things (or each person’s pancakkhandha) do not have dukha in them. It is only when we make cravings (or upadana) those things (panca upadanakkhandha) that we become subjected to dukha (suffering). It is helpful to comprehend the udaya, vaya, and viparinama nature of sankata, in order to see the root causes of anicca nature.
Pancakkhandha is like a bottle of poison sitting on a table. One gets into trouble only if one takes it and drinks from it (panca upadanakkhandha). An Arahant has pancakkhandha, but no panca upadanakkhandha.
This is a deeper aspect of anicca that I will discussing in a future desana.
Now, I do not want to scare people by saying that all these are requirements for the Sotapanna stage. These are just different ways of looking at the anicca nature. One may “see” anicca nature in many different ways, and understanding more ways is better to remove the sanna vipallasa of a nicca nature. it is also true that one can become a Sotapanna without even having read about Udayavaya Nana. But it depends on whether one has done those investigations in past lives. It is similar to the case where jhanas come easily to those who had cultivated them in previous lives.
Thanks, Johnny.
Your second reference is good, and I have just revised the post again to include that with another bullet added.
I normally do not give references to English translations of a sutta, but this one good. So, here is the second reference from Johnny: “Pañcakanga Sutta“.
Nibbanic bliss (and the bliss in saññāvedayita nirōdha samāpatti) is not a cetasika vedana, which would belong to this world. I have compared it to the relief one feels when a long-experienced migraine headache finally goes away (in the “Nibbana” subsetion). The above sutta explains too that it is not a cetasika vedana.
However, the first reference does not give a Tipitaka reference. It just makes a statement, which seems to be incorrect based on the Mahāvedalla Sutta (MN 43) as I described in the revised post.
Hi Johnny. You said: “I came across 2 Pali words: Vedayita-sukha (happiness based on feeling); Avedayita-sukha (happiness without feeling)”
I just revised the post to include two Tipitaka references.
Under new #12, “This also clarifies that saññāvedayita means without any saññā or vedana.” Also, #13 is revised.So, it is possible that avedayita sukha means with saññā or vedana.
Can you provide a reference where those two words are described/mentioned?
I just published a new post “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“, that would hopefully address more remaining questions.
This post should cover the questions raised in the discussion forum under the topics:” Nirōdha Samāpatti”, “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”, and “Nirōdha Samāpatti and Amoha”.
If there are more questions on this and related issues, please ask them here. I am going to close the other two topics, in order to not have too many parallel and related discussions.
I just published a new post “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“, that would hopefully address some of the questions one may still have.
This post should cover the questions raised in the discussion forum under the topics:” Nirōdha Samāpatti”, “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”, and “Nirōdha Samāpatti and Amoha”.
If there are more questions on this and related issues, please ask them under the topic “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”. I am going to close the other two topics, in order to not have too many parallel and related discussions.
I just published a new post “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“, that would hopefully address your question.
This post should cover the questions raised in the discussion forum under the topics:” Nirōdha Samāpatti”, “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”, and “Nirōdha Samāpatti and Amoha”.
If there are more questions on this and related issues, please ask them under the topic “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”. I am going to close the other two topics, in order to not have too many parallel and related discussions.
Akvan said: “So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati. Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati.“
This is part of the quote that I gave from the sutta in my response. I have highlighted that and its translation there too. That means “He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there—fixed on that, dwelling there often, not losing the jhana—then when he dies he is born with the devas of Brahma’s retinue.”
You also said, “All explanations of first jhana (ariya or anariya) mention viviccha kamehi, viviccha akusalehi dhammehi, which means abstaining from kama.” That is correct too. It just says one has “withdrawn from sensuality (kāma), withdrawn from akusala”, and leaves it open whether it is just suppression (vikkhambana pahana) or permanent removal (ucceda pahana).
So when you said, “This rebirth in the Brahma realm (for an ariya or anariya) is due to the gathi of the person and not due to a magga pala. yadidaṃ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.”, that is correct. Both are born in that brahma realm.
But in the same verse below that (which I also highlighted in my earlier response) explains what happens to a normal human and an Araiya after that life in the brahma realm comes to an end. The anariya, who had only suppressed kama raga (vikkhambana pahana) to get to the first jhana, comes back and may be born in apayas. But the Ariya (disciple of the Blessed One), who had removed kama raga (ucceda pahana), attains Parinibbana without coming back to kama loka.
So, when you said, “For an ariya, he does not return to this world and therefore could be called an anagami, however it does not necessarily mean that he has attained anagami pala.”, that is NOT correct. It is effectively the same, since he will get the phala moment there and then be reborn in a suddhavasa reserved for Anagamis. Anagami means “na agami” or not coming back to the kama loka. For that, he would have removed (ucceda pahana) kama raga.
This is a grave error made by even some followers of Waharaka Thero in Sri Lanka these days, even though Waharaka Thero has clarified this in his dessnas. The following is such a desna, and of course it is in Sinhala: “Ariya and Anariya Jhana“.
That is why I am emphasizing this. But of course, it is up to each individual to decide for oneself.
Y not said: “..What I meant was unselfishness in all its aspects..”.
One’s intention is ALWAYS contaminated to some level unless Tilakkhana are FULLY comprehended, which happens only at the Arahant stage.
And that level of ignorance is embedded in sanna at ALL times. One may think that one is giving without any expectations of getting something in return, but that is not correct. However, that is how one makes progress. That act of giving has merits; it will make it easier for one to comprehend Tilakkhana. That is a part of completing the mundane eightfold path.
You may be able to get a better idea when you listen to the second discourse. If not, I can incorporate more on this issue at the next discourse. This is an important but a deeper point.
y not said: ” Are you sure you do not meean ‘It does not explain how giving dana by itself CAN lead to the Anagami stage.’?”
No. I meant the opposite.
This is a VERY IMPORTANT point. In fact, grasping anicca nature is very much related to it.
One would NOT really have the mindset to give “without expecting something in return” at least in the “subconscious” if one does not have some understanding of Tilakkhana. Otherwise, attaining Nibbana would be much easier, and a Buddha would not be needed.
This is why I said that from the English or Sinhala translations at Sutta Central do not really explain the difference between the last category where one gets to the Anagami stage, and all other categories where one is born in a higher realm due to giving, but would end up in the apayas in the future.
One ALWAYS has “sanna vipallasa“, unless one comprehends Tilakkhana to some extent. That understanding increasing with higher magga phala, and “sanna vipallasa” completely goes away only at the Arahant stage.
I just published the second discourse on Tilakkhana at “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
Anyone interested should listen to that and it is better to move this discussion to the forum for discourse 2 that I just opened. Those two desanas (and the relevant posts mentioned there) need to be listened to (and read) carefully in order to comprehend this point, and in essence, Tilakkhana.
We can come back to this discussion later if needed. But for now, it is essential to understand those two discourses.
I am glad that you brought up this sutta at the right time.
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@y not: You are right. The English version has the full description. But the Pali and the Sinhala versions, which I looked at, do not. I normally look at those two versions, and not the English version. In this case I should have.
As far as the English translation: Translation is good for the most part, except for where it really counts. It does not explain how giving dana by itself cannot lead to the Anagami stage.
Yes. Your point that one does not need to attain jhanas to get to the Anagami stage was correct. I mentioned that in my first response.
I was not refuting your statement. I was merely pointing out the “meat” in the sutta that most translations miss: Exactly how one can get to the Anagami stage by dana or giving. It is not just the act of giving. One has to have the right mindset, and that comes from grasping Tilakkhana; that last part about the Tilakkhana and “sanna vipallasa“, is the “meat” or the essence.
In most translations, an effort is not made to point out the critical aspect of a sutta. They merely translate “word-to-word”. Most suttas are uddesa (condensed) version. One needs to explain in detail what that condensed version says; see, “Sutta – Introduction“.
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Yes. Sometimes it appears that some ways of detailing things are different from suttas to Abhidhamma. For example, suttas list 4 rupavacara jhanas, and Abhidhamma lists five. It turns out that the first jhana in the suttas can actually split to two, where vitakka and vicara are suppressed in two stages.
But most people do not experience two stages, and that is why the suttas mention 4 instead of five.
Abhidhamma is very refined. So, I expect that we may able to resolve this issue about the samyojana at some point.
I did check and Abhidhamma version is a bit different from the suttas which state the 10 samyojana as: sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, kama raga, patigha as five orambhagiya samyojana (removed by the Anagami stage) and rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja (removed at the Arahant stage).
For Abhidhamma: Khuddhavatthu Vibhanaga, Dasaka Niddesa: “Tattha katamāni dasa saṃyojanāni? ¬Kāmarā¬ga¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, paṭi¬gha¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, mānasaṃyojanaṃ, diṭṭhi¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, vici¬kicchā¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, sīlab¬bata¬parāmā¬sa¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, bhava-rāga¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, issāsaṃyojanaṃ, maccha¬ri¬ya¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, avijjā¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ—imāni dasa saṃyojanāni.”.
Bhavaraga, issa, macchariya instead of rupa raga, arupa raga, uddacca in the suttas. So, these differences are in the higher 5 samyojana.
Now, bhava raga could be the same as rupa raga and arupa raga, since kama raga is already removed by Anagami stage.
Therefore, issa and macchariya seem to represent uddacca. I do not know the answer to why that is. Hopefully, the answer will be found soon.It needs to be kept in mind that all these are highly reduced by the time one gets to the Anagami stage. For example, an Anagami would not have issa (jealousy) at the level of a normal human. So, it could be that whether it is uddacca or a combination of issa and macchariya, that represents the “sense of me” that we have talked a lot about under various topics at this discussion forum.
