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Just published a new post “Ānantariya Kamma – Connection to Gandhabba“, which elaborates on my comments above.
Akvan said: “According to this sutta, the bodily pain is referred to as duka vedana. Both the ariya and anariya will feel this duka vedana. But there is second duka that an anariya will feel, and that I think is the dukka dukka.”
The sutta says that a normal human will feel both bodily and mental suffering, and that a Noble Person will only the bodily suffering (of course, the mental suffering gradually reduces with higher magga phala and is totally eliminated only at the Arahant stage).
So, the suffering that is common to both is the bodily suffering and that is the dukkha dukkha. For an Arahant, that also is stopped at Parinibbana.
This is very clear in the sutta in the verse that comes right after the last verse you quoted, which says: “Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, purisaṃ sallena vijjheyya. Tamenaṃ dutiyena sallena anuvedhaṃ na vijjheyya. Evañhi so, bhikkhave, puriso ekasallena vedanaṃ vedayati. Evameva kho, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati, na kilamati, na paridevati, na urattāḷiṃ kandati, na sammohaṃ āpajjati. So ekaṃ vedanaṃ vedayati—kāyikaṃ, na cetasikaṃ“.
Translated, not word by word, but to give the idea: “Bhikkhus, Suppose a man were to be shot with a spear. In addition to the physical pain, he would become distraught by the injury and suffer mentally too. That is like being pierced by the spear twice. A Noble Person pierced by the same spear will have only that bodily suffering, and no mental suffering”.
The difference is that the Noble Person would realize that the bodily injury is due to a kamma vipaka, and there is nothing one can do, but to take steps to heal it. There is no point in worrying about it.
The mental suffering that will be stopped totally at the Arahant phala moment is also called “samphassa ja vedana“; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
Hi Eric,
Thank you for sharing your diary with us. It may help you get things off your chest, and hopefully we can see improvement over time.
However, don’t expect quick results. Keep taking the medication and hopefully you can reduce the dose over time, and eventually become free of medication.
As I mentioned before, each one of has health or other personal issues that are due to kamma done in previous lives. Once those kamma vipaka start, all we can do is to try to deal with their effects. Yours is something that actually can be overcome, since the actual abuse was in the past. The mind CAN heal.
By the way, I am not sure whether you the post by Donna where she recommended the book: The Brain’s Way of Healing: Remarkable Discoveries and Recoveries from the Frontiers of Neuroplasticity, by Norman Doidge. You may want to read that. It is compatible with some things that we have discussed based on Buddha Dhamma. After all these years, psychologists are re-discovering some key issues on how the human mind works.
Firewns said: “When we think of an enduring ‘X’ which is still ever-changing, we risk conceptualising the self-identity as having a permanent core with only its outer aspects or manifestations changing.”
You are correct that, in the ABSOLUTE sense, there is no “permanent core”.
But ALL humans below the Arahant stage are operating AS IF there is a “permanent core”.We can look at it this way: The sense of having a “permanent core” (which is best to be called “sense of me or self”) is very strong for a normal human. If one is not even aware of/ does not believe in laws of kamma, one could do strong immoral acts for the benefit of “me”.
By the time one gets to the Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna stages, one realizes that it is not worthwhile AND dangerous to do such “apayagami immoral actions” for the benefit of “me” (mostly for sense pleasures).
Then when one goes through the Sakadagami/Anagami stages, one realizes that even engaging in “harmless sense pleasures” is dangerous. By the Anagami stage, one AUTOMATICALLY loses craving for ALL sense pleasures.
– For a normal human, even this stage is hard to fathom, i.e., one cannot even believe that such a state will be possible. For many people, the question could be: “why would one want to lose craving for sense pleasures?”.However, even an Anagami has the “sense of me”, and thus could be offended or at least perturbed (but not generate anger) by harsh criticism. One still wants to live in this world of 31 realms (actually only in mental states corresponding to those realms above the kama loka).
The fruitlessness AND danger in even that will only be realized at the Arahant stage. That is when one finally gives up the “sense of me” or the “permanent core”. This is even more worse situation than the Anagami stage in the minds of most humans: “Why would I want to do that? I always want to live”.
This is why I say that one needs to go step-by-step. Don’t even contemplate on the Anagami stage, until getting to the Sotapanna stage. It is likely that some of you CAN imagine the benefits of the Anagami stage, and may be getting there (or already there). In any case, one will KNOW when one gets there; no one else can know that.
Therefore, the bottom line is that we are far from actually BELIEVING that there is no “permanent core”. It is truly comprehended ONLY at the Arahant stage.
Put it in another way: Both views that “there is an unchanging self” and “there is no self” are wrong for any human who has not yet attained the Arahanthood. Only at the Arahant stage, that one truly realizes that “there is no point (and one will be subjected much suffering) in having a sense of self”. That “self” who undergoes suffering will cease to exist in this suffering-filled world of 31 realms at Parinibbana. Then that particular “self” will no longer exist in this world; he/she would be merged with Nibbana, which is permanent and without suffering.
I hope everyone will read the above carefully.
OK, y not. It seems that you don’t have further questions on this issue. I am glad to hear that. It is not always clear to me exactly what a given person is asking.
I am sure it works the other way too, i.e., my explanations may not be clear (or I am not really addressing the specific question/comment of a given person).
Hi Akvan,
The full sutta that quoted is: “Tisso imā, bhikkhave, dukkhatā. Katamā tisso? Dukkhadukkhatā, saṅkhāradukkhatā, vipariṇāmadukkhatā—imā kho, bhikkhave, tisso dukkhatā. Imāsaṃ kho, bhikkhave, tissannaṃ dukkhatānaṃ abhiññāya pariññāya parikkhayāya pahānāya … pe … ayaṃ ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvetabbo”ti.”
Translated: “Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of suffering. What three? Dukkhadukkhatā, saṅkhāradukkhatā, vipariṇāmadukkhatā, which are the three kinds of suffering. The Noble Eightfold Path is to be developed for comprehending of these three kinds of suffering, for their utter destruction, for their removal.”
That does not mean ALL THREE types of sufferings are stopped at the Arahanthood.
Didn’t the Buddha get injured (by Devadatta)? Didn’t he have back pains? Didn’t he have a painful episode after the last meal? Therefore, even the Buddha was subjected to dukkha dukkha UNTIL Parinibbana.
The sutta means stopping of all three sufferings are at Parinibbana.
I discussed this in detail on May 30, 2018 under the topic, “Anantariya Kamma, Euthanasia and Assisted Suicides“. Please read that carefully.
– To make a connection to that post: Both sankhara dukkha (suffering associated with “effort and suffering associated with trying to get long-lasting happiness in this world”) and viparinama dukkha (being subjected to mental suffering when that does not work), are BOTH stopped at the Arahant phala moment. Thus, a living Buddha or an Arahant would NOT have those TWO.
– But dukkha dukkha is due to kamma vipaka, and as long as the physical body is alive, those could bring BODILY suffering.If you have further questions, we can discuss it here or there.
Hi Johnny,
Yes to those questions. As I understand, there are no living Arahants in Pure Abodes. If one does not attain Arahanthood prior to the end of the lifespan there, one would automatically attain Parinibbana at the moment of cuti.There seems to be two issues that may be difficult to grasp.
1. A LIVING Arahant is subjected to kamma vipaka DURING his/her life.
2. No kamma vipaka will come to an Arahant AFTER his/her death.When we clarify some basic and fundamental issues, hopefully the answers will become clear.
FIRST is the definition of an anantariya kamma vipaka. As I explained above, such a kamma vipaka should bring results “without a gap”, immediately.
However, a “complication” arises due to a SECOND key factor. The primary “body” that is directly subjected to anantariya kamma vipaka is the “mental body” consisting of the kammaja kaya, cittaja kaya, and utuja kaya. All living beings have this “mental body” and in human and animal realms it is given a special name “gandhabba”.
– The gandhabba or the mental body is trapped inside a solid physical body, and thus is “shielded” form those anantariya kamma vipaka.THIRDLY, in addition to the five “bad” anantariya kamma that I mentioned earlier, there are several “good” anantariya kamma: magga phala (stages of Nibbana) and attainment of (Ariya or anariya) jhanas. Of course these apply to only humans.
If one did not have a solid body, one attaining the Anagami stage would be instantaneously born in the rupavacara realms reserved for the Anagamis, and one attaining the Arahant stage would immediately undergo Parinibbana (i.e., cease to exist in the 31 realms and immediately get to Nibbana). Furthermore, one attaining a jhana would immediately be born in a brahma realm.
However, since the mental body is “shielded” by the solid physical body, any type of anantariya kamma vipaka will have to wait until the mental body comes out of the physical body AFTER the natural death of the physical body (In the case of an Arahant/yogi coming out of the physical body to perform supernormal powers, this does not apply since the two bodies have not been “kammically separated”).
Those are THREE factors that we need to keep in mind.
Now we can see why 1 and 2 above hold. An Arahant HAS TO live with the physical body that he/she was born with until the death of the physical body. At death, the gandhabba comes out and immediately undergoes Parinibbana. Until then, the physical body would have to bear many good and bad kamma vipaka.
There is actually a FOURTH issue that completes this analysis. One attains the final stage of Nibbana (Arahanthood), not by removing or exhausting all kamma vipaka from the past.
– One attains the Arahanthood by cultivating one’s panna (wisdom) to the level where one truly understands the real nature of this world. At that point one’s mind will not be tempted by ANY desire to born ANYWHERE in the 31 realms. That is a CRITICAL POINT to understand.
– Now when the gandhabba comes out of the dead body of an Arahant, it immediately undergoes the cuti (separation from the human bhava), due to the anantariya kamma vipaka associated with the Arahant phala.
– But now, that lifestream CANNOT grasp a new bhava anywhere in the 31 realms since there is no “upadana” in the step of “upadana paccaya bhava” in the Paticca Samuppada process.
– Therefore, even though there are many good and bad kamma vipaka may be associated with that Arahant (the case of Angulimala is a good example), those all will become “ahosi kamma” (are not able to bring out vipaka), simply because one is not born in any of the 31 realms to experience them.In the case of the death of an Anagami, the gandhabba comes out, undergoes cuti, but can grasp a bhava in the rupavacara brahma realms reserved for the Anagamis. Therefore, a cuti-patisandhi transition takes place leading to the rebirth in such a realm. But an Anagami‘s mind would not grasp a bhava anywhere in the kamavacara realms, since he/she has lost all “upadana” (loosely tied to cravings) for such realms.
In the same way, a Sotapannas’ mind would not grasp a bhava in the apayas. Any “apayagami kamma” he/she had done have now become “ahosi kamma“.
Even though one who attained an anariya jhana would grasp a bhava in the appropriate brahma realm, that is just for that particular cuti-patisandhi transition. Since he/she had not attained a magga phala (and thus has not “seen” the futility/danger of “apayagami actions”), a birth in the apayas can happen in the future.
Please feel free to ask questions if something is not clear. These are important issues to be resolved.
Finally, I would like to point out the following about taking part in the discussion forum. I have seen many discussion forums where people use them to “show off” their knowledge. Here we are trying to learn true and pure Buddha Dhamma to seek relief from future suffering. This needs to be taken seriously, and I do not want this forum to become a philosophical-type forum where people write whatever comes to their minds.
First thing in serious learning is to be able to admit that one does not know something, if that is the case. One should not try to explain things that one is not comfortable with. I do not try to explain things that I am confident of. If I do not have a comfortable understanding, I just say so. I am willing to change my interpretation of even those things that I feel comfortable about, if good evidence to the contrary is shown.
Here are the rules advocated by the Buddha (for speech, but these discussions belong to the same category):
-If you know something that is not helpful and is untrue, then do not say it
-If you know something that might be helpful, but is untrue, do not say it
-If you know something that is not helpful and is true, do not speak about it
-If you know something that is helpful and is true, then find the right time to say it.In other words, state things that you know to be true AND only if that helps the topic of discussion. That will reduce a lot clutter in the discussion forum. Many people read these discussions, and we do not want them to waste their time reading unnecessary rantings.
Please be to the point if you are confident about the material and be grammatical as much as possible. We want this website and the discussion forum to be a source of good information.
On the other hand, I do not want to discourage useful discussions, so I hope I am not sending the wrong message.
– One good practice that could help is not to post a reply right away in response to a new comment/question, but hold off at least an hour; give it more thought and formulate a response methodically.The reference given by SengKiat is not that good, and could lead to confusion in some cases. The three types of sufferings are discussed at:
Introduction – What is Suffering?
Introduction -2 – The Three Characteristics of Nature
Those are the first two posts in the subsection: “Paticca Samuppada in Plain English“.
@Embodied: No need to do that.
I will explain those two issues below.Yes. Vipaka of non-ananatariya kamma may also be applied repeatedly if the kammic energy is not used up entirely.
Yes. As long as there are causes (hetu), there will be effects (phala). But with time some of those kammic energies wear out and could be totally exhausted after long times. Then they will not bring vipaka; they become ahosi kamma.
@Embodied: Whether it vanishes or disappears, it is the same thing.
Let me repeat the two important questions that I raised above. Do you understand why:
1. A LIVING Arahant is subjected to kamma vipaka DURING his/her life.
2. No kamma vipaka will come to an Arahant AT or AFTER his/her death.This is done not to embarrass you or anyone else, but to get to the right question and then to answer. This could be the same issue that “y not” asking about. I am not sure. I just want to clarify the question before answering.
Embodied said: “So my question “why is that?” relates to Parinibanna, meaning why is that all kamma vipaka vanishes when Parinibanna takes place.”
Why would not all kamma vipaka vanish for an Arahant when that Arahant attains Parinibbana?
Welcome to the discussion forum, ashish.gohel!
It will take some effort to get an answer to your question. The Buddha said that both views that “there is a self” and “there is no-self” are wrong.
You may want to read in the following order:
What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“Self” and “no-self”: A Simple Analysis – Do We Always Act with Avijja?
Anatta and Dukkha – True Meanings
A “lifestream” per first post above can be thought of the following way too. One has a set of gati (soemtimes spelled as gathi). These are character qualities/habits that change from life-to-life and even during a given life. One attains Nibbana when one gets rid of all gati. You can learn about gati by starting with the following post: “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gathi), and Cravings (Asavas)”
Then you can use the “Search” box at top right to find more posts on gati. Please feel free to ask questions (and refer to the posts in question) as you proceed.
@Alay: Anantariya kamma vipaka may not be exhausted by a birth in the apayas. There could be “leftover kammic energy” that can come back in later lives, as happened to Ven. Moggallana. He had been born in the apayas previously due that anantariya kamma of killing both his parents, but there was still left over kammic energy.
