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y not: From that sutta: “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.”.
It says a Sakadagami will come back just once to THIS LOKA (meaning kama loka. Anagami is never coming back to kama loka). However, a Sakadagami has much less kama raga/patigha compared to a Sotapanna, and thus is expected to be reborn only in a deva realm.
– A Sakadagami has removed vatthu kama (the desire to OWN things that give sense pleasures).
– An Anagami has removed both vatthu kama and kilesa kama (any desire for sense pleasures).
– A Sotapanna has both vatthu kama and kilesa kama.All three categories of Sotapanna will be born in the human world (manussa loka) one or more times.
The rebirth for a Sakadagami is also explained in, “The Way to Nibbana – Removal of Asavas” (see #2). I am sure I talked about this other posts, but do not remember offhand what those are.
To add to what SengKiat stated, we can see it from another way.
The ultimate truths are in the Four Noble Truths. The First Noble Truth says: As long as one is in this world, one will be subjected to suffering. The cause for that suffering is in the Second Noble Truth (cravings due to avijja), and the Third Noble Truth says that suffering can be ended by removing that cause (getting rid of both cravings and avijja), and the Forth Noble Truth explains the way to get there (the Noble Eightfold Path).
Let us look at how the Buddha summarized the First Noble Truth about suffering in his first sutta: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:
Idam kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkham ariyasaccam:
jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhāṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ—saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.
Translated: Bhikkhus, What is the Noble Truth of Suffering?
“Birth is suffering, getting old is suffering, getting sick is suffering, dying is suffering. Having to associate with things that one does not like is suffering and having to separate from those things one likes is suffering. If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering – Doing worldly activities (samkittena) to get all those things one craves for (pancupadanakkhandha) is suffering.”
When one attains Nibbana, all future suffering will be stopped.
After explaining the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha declared that he has indeed attained that “ultimate unconditioned state of happiness” and the present life will be his last life:
In the middle of the sutta: “Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
Translated: “The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘unshakable is the liberation of my mind. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence.’”
That statement says the outcome of the discovery of that knowledge. The solution to future suffering. It is the ending of the rebirth process.
In the next regular post, I will explain the importance of understanding pancupadanakkhandha (panca upadana khandha). When we crave for things in this world, that is pancupadanakkhandha. That is different from pancakkhandha.
Of course, attaining Nibbana (Arahanthood) is not easy, and in fact sounds scary at the beginning (to stop existence?). But the point is that existence IN THIS WORLD is filled with suffering. Even if one get births in deva/brahma realms with mostly happiness, that will not last, and one WILL be born in the apayas filled with suffering. One needs to get to the unconditioned state (that without causes) in order to attain the ultimate death-less state. All four thing that are stated as suffering in the verse above (birth, getting old, diseases, and death) are not there; see, “Nibbana“.
However, one needs to get there in a step-by-step way: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“. Even though we should keep the ultimate goal in the back of our minds, our focus should be on making the next step in the Path. With each step in the right direction, we are getting closer to the ultimate happiness (and we can experience that too with niramisa sukha).
“From a teacher i understood Nibbana may not be called nicca, sukha and atta as opposed to anicca, dukkha and anatta..”
We have discussed this many times, and it is fully explained here:”Nibbana“.
If you agree with that teacher, that is fine with me. Please don’t raise this again in this forum, unless you have evidence from the Tipitaka that anything in those posts in the link above is not correct. If you have such evidence, you are welcome to present them. Just refer to the specific post and bullet # where I have stated something that is not correct.
It is irrelevant what any teacher or anyone says, unless evidence from the Tipitaka is presented.
To summarize what y not said (or the summary of the sutta) is to indicate the nine type of persons who are free of the apayas, but have not attained the Arahant stage yet:
There are five types of Anagamis, Sakadagami, and three types of Sotapanna.
So, the question is what are the differences among the five types of Anagamis and the three types of Sotapannas.
Those are just differences in understanding of the true nature of this world (anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, rogata,etc, where the most important first three are called Tilakkhana). I don’t think it is worthwhile to analyze in detail (even if possible) what those differences are.
Even if one does not know any of these details (even what Tilakkhana are in words), one may be able to make progress and attain magga phala by comprehending the unfruitful AND dangerous nature of this world. That is the critical point: understanding the true nature of this world.
At the time of the Buddha, there was no written material for people to read. Many of them did not even know these terms. They just went to listen to the Buddha and WHILE LISTENING understood these characteristics of nature, and attained magga phala at various levels.
This is a key point that is being discussed at this topic too: “Discourse 1 – Nicca, Sukha, Atta“.
P.S. Of course, it is always good to have more details. If someone can explain those nine stages in more detail, that would be appreciated.
Sorry. I had been busy and did not upekkha100’s latest comment.
Tilakkhana (ti + lakkhana) are three major CHARACTERISTICS or properties of the real nature of this world. There are several other characteristics too: asubha (not beneficial), rogato (subject to disease), etc.
These characteristics are understood gradually when one starts on the Path. Significant improvements (or jumps) in understanding happens at the stages of magga phala.
– For example, at the Anagami stage one realizes Tilakkhana to a more deeper level where one’s mind has realized that engaging in activities for sense pleasures is meaningless.
– However, one cannot get there without understanding Tilakkhana at a lower level at the Sotapanna stage.This is what was discussed in the recent post: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”
Another point is that there are many ways to describe each of anicca, dukkha, anatta characteristics. For a given person, one aspect of anatta may be easily understood than another aspect.
– For example, “atta” can mean a state that is “unchanging (no death), no unexpected change (no viparinama), and is the ultimate happiness”. What the Buddha is said such a state DOES NOT EXIST in this world. Thus as long as one is bound to this world of 31 realms, one BECOMES “anatta” (helpless or subject to suffering).
– Nibbana is THAT STATE and one needs to overcome the sansaric bonds to this world (ten samyojana) in order to get there. That is real “atta” state and one who gets there becomes a true “attā”.This post discusses that aspect: “Anatta – the Opposite of Which Atta?“.
Akvan summarized what I said above: “2) When it is said that anatta becomes completely true for an arahanth, I think it means that only when a person reaches the arahanth stage does one fully comprehend anatta.”
“The way I see it, is that a puthujjana needs pariyatti and paṭipatti to get to paṭivedha(magga phala, the Sotapanna stage).”
That is right. I mentioned this in the second part of my reply. Both learning AND discipline (with a significant effort) are needed to progress in the mundane eightfold path (i.e., for a puthujjana).
But once one gets to the Sotapanna stage, discipline comes (to an extent) AUTOMATICALLY with the grasping of the Tilakkhana (but he/she still has not craving for sense pleasures). One does not need to think about the bad consequences of such highly immoral actions (births in the apayas). One simply would not be able to do such immoral actions. One does not have think: “If I do this I might be born in the apayas”.
It is sort of like the following. A child sees a red hot iron rod as a beautiful thing and may think about touching it. The child has to keep reminding him/herself that Mom has said not to touch it, because it can burn.
– But an adult knows that it can burn, and would not even think about touching it.“My confusion is in regards to the similar meanings given for both sankhara and dhamma. If I remember correctly, some of the descriptions like “without substance, no safety, meatless bones” for all sankhara, were also given for all dhamma. ”
Hopefully, the confusion can be resolved with the following example.
Apple trees are also trees. But only an apple tree can produce apples. Just because apple trees belong to the category of trees, any other tree cannot produce apples.
In the same way, sankhara are part of dhamma. But just because sankhara are of anicca nature (cannot be maintained to one’s satisfaction, like a meat-less bone, etc), other dhammas do not have such anicca nature. But sankhara also have anatta nature (without essence), because they are also included in Dhammas.
In set theory, apple trees are a “subset” or “a part of” of the set of trees. The set of trees is the bigger set. The set of apple trees is a smaller set that is within the larger set of trees. Only apple trees can produce apples. But apple trees also have other characteristics of trees: roots, trunk, leaves, etc.
Does that help?
Upekkha100: Yes. You have grasped it well.
However, regarding the last paragraph, this is not true: “Everything that can be attributed to sabbe sankhara(no substance,bone without meat, no safety, no predictability/stability) can also be attributed to sabbe dhamma as well.”
- It is only “sabbe sankhara anicca”. Sankhara are like meat-less bones, only lead to suffering.
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But nama gotta, which are not sankhara but are Dhamma, do not lead to any suffering. However, one can get to suffering by generating sankhara about nama gotta.
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Sankhara are all mental. Nama gotta are memory records, and exist independent of one’s mind. Of course one can recall nama gotta.
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Nama gotta are of course stable. But they are also of no use eventually, just as even Buddha Dhamma (which also does not change) needs to be given up to attain Nibbana (after the Anagami stage, in order to get to the Arahant stage).
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On the other hand, all dhamma are not permanent. It just says, “Sabbe Dhamma anatta”; they are all of no use, ultimately, at the Arahant stage. But we do need nama gotta, as well as Buddha Dhamma, to get there.
May be I did not fully understand that last part of your question?
You are right. Those words are not found commonly in the suttas, at least to my knowledge.
May be the reason is that when one truly understands Dhamma (basically the unfruitful nature of this world) or pariyatti, one will automatically gets into practice (patipatti), and one will inevitably realize the fruits (pativedha).
Most of the time is spent in learning the background material, getting rid of the 10 types of mica ditthi, and then truly understanding Tilakkhana: the unfruitful, suffering-filled, nature that tends to make one become helpless in the rebirth process.
When one gets to that stage, all three are fulfilled to some extent. It is just a matter of time (relatively speaking), when they are fully completed.
However, there is another way of looking at this: In order to understand Tilakkhana (and to get to pariyatti), one must first follow the mundane eightfold path and get rid of the 10 types of mica ditthi. That goes hand-in-hand with living a moral life. So, at that level, pariyatti and patipatti can be said to go together first.
Then when one starts on the Noble Path by almost simultaneously getting to fulfilling all three to some extent.
Just my initial thoughts. I had never thought about it much before you asked the question.
Siebe said: “I believe the unconditioned is the stable.”
That is exactly right. But only an Arahant is at the unconditioned state. The question is how does one get to that stage: step-by-step. See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“.
A related point:
When Siebe says he cannot see a difference from day-to-day (in the first post), that is because he is not “seeing it with panna”. This is actually what most of us perceive.
– We don’t see a change from day-to-day, but the change is apparent to the “physical eyes” only over a relatively long time. Same with the mind: Our minds do not see any change from day to day (that is because our gati do not change that fast).We need to learn to “see” with wisdom (panna).
We know that we have changed physically over the past 10 years, say. We can even look at a picture taken 10 years ago and even see with our own eyes.
However, we may or may not be able to see the change over even a year by looking at an year-old picture.
– But if we think about it, we will realize that we much have changed somewhat over a year, because a few years more and we will be able to see the change.We can keep doing this division to shorter and shorter times. Logically, even over a second, we would have changed at least a minute fraction.
– That is how one “sees” the change with wisdom. The change is incessant, it never stops. We just don’t “see it”.If we don’t make an effort, the change is to the down side.
– If we don’t exercise or eat well, our physical bodies will degrade over a year. In the same way, if we don’t make an effort to be “more moral”, the natural tendency is to “enjoy the moment” and the consequence will be to “worse gati” over a year for sure.Of course, in order to see a “big improvement” of our gati, we must comprehend the anicca nature. That will help us stay away from unwise immoral actions (and more importantly immoral thoughts).
As we discussed in “Sankhāra – What It Really Means“, our conscious thoughts (vaci sankhara) play a huge role here, in helping comprehend the anicca nature, and thus in changing one’s gati.
P.S. The book “The Power of Your Subconscious Mind” by Joseph Murphy gives a mundane version of how our thoughts (the way we think) can make a huge difference. The more we think in a certain way (good or bad), our subconscious mind changes accordingly. This is another way of saying that our gati change according to the way we think.
Good observation. I had not seen that. Thank you!
Yes. There are many short suttas in the Sutta Nipatha and Anguttara Nikāya, that summarize key concepts.
” Is there a real basis for this, is there something that does not change?”
There is NOTHING in this world that does not change.
It depends on exactly what you are trying to change.
Once you figure that out, you need to figure out what MUST BE changed in your THOUGHTS, SPEECH, and ACTIONS that could lead to the change you are seeking.
If you found out the right causes, AND if you follow through what MUST BE done, then the change will happen OVER TIME.
P.S. I was thinking about this a bit more.
- A material thing like our body can be “improved” to some extent only up to the middle age. After that one cannot reverse the inevitable decay with time.
– Basically everyone knows what to do to make a physical body “better”: exercise and eating well. - Our minds (and thus the progress on the Path) can be changed for the better for a longer time. But when one gets to really old age, the brain (which is physical) starts decaying and that will make any more progress impossible.
– The basic suggestion by the Buddha to make one’s mind better is to remove lobha, dosa, moha from one’s mind.
Y not said: “If only we were able to always put ourselves in the shoes of ‘that other’ most of these questions would not even arise.”
That is really the bottom line. In fact, that was Buddha’s advise to the people of Kalama in the Kalama Sutta.
Put it in another way: Nibbana (cooling down), starting from the very basic level is to remove greed, hate, and ignorance (greed and hate arise due to ignorance).
- So, if a given action causes one to be uncomfortable that is due to greed, hate, ignorance arising. This is what is called “taapa” (or “heat”) in Satipatthana. One should avoid such actions.
- On the other hand, returning a lost item to the owner (whenever possible) is a non-greed, non-hate action done without ignorance. That always lead to joy in the heart in both people, opposite of taapa.
Both actions lead to cooling down of the mind.
Hi Akvan,
Of course, I knew that and I said so.
You said: “I was just trying to explain how in an ultimate (pramaththa) sense the ownership of things work. And also trying to explain how the ultimate (pramaththa) laws may defer from conventional and legal rules. .”
The conventional laws do not need to be different from ultimate (pramaththa) sense, especially in cases like ownership. If conventional law and order breaks down, we will have a chaotic situation. If one can just grab something from another, would not that lead to chaos?
The point is that when one makes progress on the Path, he/she will not care much if someone else takes things from him/her. The “sense of ownership” goes down. That is true. But we cannot impose that on the whole society, because law and order will break down.
I can see that the precept about “musavada” (making “adhamma as dhamma”) is different from “conventional lying”. But I don’t see how stealing can be justified in any way.
Because this involves breaking a very fundamental precept of not hurting another person: “In a similar way, if B steals something from A, say by grabbing his bag and running off, in the ultimate sense the ownership of that bag changes from A to B after the point that B takes hold of the bag. ”
“Panca upadanakhanda being compared to drinking the poison, seems to imply that suffering begins at the upadana stage(pulling object of greed/hatred closer), rather than beginning at the tanha stage(getting attached).”
- Yes. That is correct.
“Is there a deliberate reason why the Buddha called it “panca upadanakhanda” instead of “panca tanhakhanda?”
- The reason is in the above statement.
It is the upadana that we have control over, not tanha.
If it was tanha that leads to “bhava” WITHOUT having the upadana step in between, then no one will be able to attain Nibbana.
This is a VERY IMPORTANT point. If this is not clear to anyone: Please read the thread from the beginning and ask questions. Be specific what the sticking point is.
To put it in another way, attaining Nibbana is really about getting rid all gati, especially the “bad gati” in the beginning.
– When we get rid of a certain gati over time (by controlling upadana via controlling vaci and kaya sankhara), tanha associated with that gati will be removed eventually.
– One becomes free of the apayas by removing “apayagami gati” or “those gati that makes one do bad kamma that can lead to rebirth in the apayas”. That is the way to the Sotapanna stage. It becomes easier to get rid of”apayagami gati” when one starts grasping the anicca nature.
