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@upekkha100:
Can there be a difference between spoken words and written words if they have the same words?
– This is the point that we seem to have finally converged to.There could be a big difference. Let me give an example.
Suppose a little child is about to touch a red-hot cooking surface, because it looks attractive. If the mother sees that, how would she say, “Don’t touch it!”?.
– The tone of her voice will tell the child it would be dangerous to touch it. The child would immediately pull back.On the other hand, if someone watching just said, “Don’t touch it!” without any emotion in the voice, the child may not even hear that. Even if she hears it, she may not pay any attention to it.
– But those are exactly the same words!That “tone of voice” is captured in a recording.
Vince asked: “Could the fact that I was ordained during the time I absorbed all of this information be another factor to consider? How significant of a role would it play in accelerating one’s progress and also, is it possible to bypass that need to physically hear a sound to attain magga phala if one is absorbing Dhamma while one is ordained?”
Yes. It would definitely play a role in making understanding concepts easier. When one is living the life of a bhikkhu, there are less things to worry about, and one’s mind could expected to be relatively more calm. Furthermore, the environment is more peaceful and calm too.
– However, per that sutta that I quoted earlier, attaining Sotapanna phala happens only while listening to an Ariya, whether one is a bhikkhu or not.It is also important to note that this listening requirement is not there for higher magga phala. The help of an Ariya is needed only for the attainment of Sotapanna phala.
You can read the following post and see whether it answers your questions. I just revised it:
Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?Johnny_Lim said: “A fighter pilot is a soldier. A soldier’s job is to defend his own country against enemy’s threat, which implies destroying enemy forces – taking lives. Deliberate attempt to destroying lives is very bad kamma. We are talking about human lives here. Interestingly, we do not see immediate rebirth of these people into hell for performing such unwholesome acts. Instead, they are reborn as human beings.”
As discussed in the post, “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein“, a human bhava can last thousands of years, and one could be born many times with a human body during that time. Johnny probably knew, but forgot about that.
Only if one does an anantairya kamma (like killing parent or attaining a jhanic state, for example) that this rule will be broken.
– Someone who has killed a parent will be born in an apaya when this physical body dies, even if there is kammic energy for the human bhava remains.
– In the same way, one who has attained a (anariya/Ariya) jhana, will break the human bhava and will be born in the corresponding brahma realm at death.The fighter pilot did not commit an anantariya kamma, even though it was a strong bad kamma. The rebirth process as a human will continue for him until the kammic energy for the human bhava runs out.
– But at the end the end of this human bhava, the next bhava will be determined by which past kamma (including those killings a soldier) will be the strongest. Cuti-patisandhi or the “grasping of a new bhava happens at that time.“As I understand javana is part of citta. But is javana also part of the physical sound or the sadda rupa?”
I think we can say that there are two possible contributions from one’s speech.
- The actual javana power is emitted when one speaks (or even consciously thinks). These are the real “sadda rupa” or suddhashtaka that are emitted due to the citta generated in one’s mind.
- However, the “message” embedded in spoken words can be reproduced in a recording. Again, I explained this in the previous post.
– These are part of the “aura” emitted by our bodies.
– As I said before, it is likely that these “citta kirana” that are emitted by citta (also called “cittaja rupa”) could affect the listener.
– We do not know what fraction of the “total effect” comes from this.The relative contributions of the two effects may not be quantified. It probably depends on the speaker/listener combination too.
Even if the speaker is the same, two people even listening at the same time may not get the same benefits. It will depend on the listener ability grasp material as well as the listener’s state of mind (even a person with a sharp mind may not be able to grasp the message, if the mind was agitated at that time).
An idea about the complexity of this issue can be seen by listening to Dhammaruwan’s recitals in the post, “Boy Who Remembered Pāli Suttas for 1500 Years“.
– I added a recording from him as an adult in #6; some of you may not have seen that if you read the original post. I made the addition later.
– It is very clear that the chantings of Dhammaruwan as a child is much more powerful than his recital as an adult. Therefore, that “effect” had been captured in the recording.In other words, even though the javana power emitted only during the time one’s conscious thoughts are generated, a significant part of the “effect” of the actual speech is captured in a recording.
The actual “sound wave” can be repeated in a recording, as I explained in the previous post. The sound wave hitting the ear drum of a listener is pretty much the same.
We can also see this when we think about the fact that millions of people can learn about a given subject by listening to a tape of recorded instructions these days.
Magga phala citta (attaining the Sotapanna stage) happens DURING listening to a desana.
However, one may not realize it until even a few weeks later, when one starts realizing that some of one’s gathi have changed.
“What I don’t understand is, how sukha vedana can arise while eating tasty food or smelling a nice odor.”
That is a good observation. Here is another thing to think about: kama guna that are based on one’s bhava:
Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda
Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.
Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.
– However, since “somanassa” is defined as a “mental construction”, sweetness of sugar would not count as a somanassa vedana either!
– May be it is a “mental construction” that happens AUTOMATICALLY based on bhava.
– For example, humans like the taste of sugar, but a pig does not, which likes the taste of feces. So, just being a human one feels sugar as likable or tasty.What Vince said is true for making general progress.
Upekkha100’s question is specifically on attaining the Sotapanna stage. In the Sotāpattiphala Sutta (SN 55.55) it says: “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sappurisasaṃsevo, saddhammassavanaṃ, yonisomanasikāro, dhammānudhammappaṭipatti..”
So, “saddhamma savanaṃ” or “listening to correct Dhamma” is one of the 4 requirements to attain the Sotapanna stage.
Now, as upekkha says: “I would think that the energy that was emanating from the Ariya’s mind(as the desana was being delivered) would be able to reach the mind of X.” is likely to play a role.
The question is whether that “live listening” is necessary or whether a recorded desana is sufficient.
We may never get a conclusive answer, but Waharaka Thero probably had some valid reasons to say that it would be sufficient to listen to a recorded desana by an Ariya.
Here is another thing to think about:
As I explained in an answer to another question today, we need to think about how the “sota indriya” (which is not the same as the physical ear) works.Sound waves are transmitted through air as waves of air compressions, just like water wave that propagate outwards when a stone is dropped in water.
– Air compressions hit the ear drum inside “the physical ear”, and makes it vibrate.
– Those vibrations are sent to the brain and the brain converts them to a “sound signal” (this is how a microphone converts spoken words to an electric signal too) which it then transmits to the “sota pasada rupa” located close to the hadaya vatthu in the mental body (gandhabba); see, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.Now, when a recorded signal is played back, it re-creates that same sound wave propagating through air. Therefore, whether listening alive or via listening to a recording, one’s ear drums will generate the same signal.
Therefore, other than effect of being exposed to the “javana energy of cittas” while listening to a live desana (mentioned above), the actual sound reaching the sota pasada rupa will be the same.
So, while it could be better to listen directly, listening to a recorded desana is likely to be enough.
From the accounts of some people at this forum, and also according to those who have listened to Abhaya Thero’s desanas on internet, listening to a recorded desana seems to be sufficient.
The post being discussed is: “Feelings: Sukha, Dukha, Somanassa, and Domanassa”
One way to separate domanassa and somanassa vedana from sukha and dukha vedana is that the former two have associated “mental factors (cetasika)” generated.
So, they are also called “cetasika sukha or cetasika dukha”. Those do not arise in Arahants and arise due to one’s defilements (getting attached to it becoming joyful or being repelled by it and becoming irritated).
The ear-piercing sound is really a dukha vedana (due to vipaka) that is associated with kaya, not the ears (sota indriya).
– Here we need to think about how the “sota indriya” (which is not the same as the physical ear) works. Air compressions hit the ear drum inside “the physical ear”, and makes it vibrate. Those vibrations are sent to the brain and the brain converts them to a “sound signal” which it then transmits to the “sota pasada rupa” located close to the hadaya vatthu in the mental body (gandhabba); see, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.- So, the dukha vedana created by an “ear-piercing sound” is actually due to the high perturbation of the ear drum (part of the physical body), a physical sensation. If it is really strong, the ear drum may be damaged and one could feel pain just like due to a wound.
- Of course, one could also generate domanassa vedana due to being irritated by that.
An Arahant would feel the first (physical), but not the second (mental) due to that “ear-piercing sound”.
I see a lot of good advice. Here are a few more.
Merit giving is always good. You can “give” only after “gaining”. But that “gain” could come in many ways: when one gives to the poor, animals, and especially to bhikkhus, one “gains” merits for oneself, which one can the share with all beings, in one’s mid. One can also gain by doing satipatthana (being mindful). When one has avoided a bad kamma by being mindful, one will feel the “joy”, which again one share, etc. One can also gain by doing vipassana (insight meditation) by contemplating on Dhamma concepts (dasa akusala, five precepts, anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticca samuppada, etc).
One can gain “niramisa sukha” or “cooling down” just living a simple life. When we try to accumulate too many material things (thinking that they will provide us with pleasures), they only increase the burdens that we are already carrying. That does not mean one should give up everything. One needs certain things live this life. But the minimum one can live is the best. One has to be wise in making decisions though. For example, there is no point in paying for a “high end car” costing a lot money, but one should not buy a cheap car that breaks down often too (if one can afford); buying a “really cheap” car would only add more problems to handle, when it starts breaking down.
By the way, I would not worry about whether devas exist or not. We can see the suffering of humans and especially animals. Think about the pain suffered by an animal while being eaten alive or an old person without anyone to help. When I see those old people begging, I wonder what they would do when they get sick. That generates a lot of compassion. Then it is only natural to give merits to all such beings in this world. There are countless beings in much worse conditions.
So, we must not be depressed even if we do have problems. Everyone does. We just need to try to minimize the suffering by acting mindfully. Most of the things that we can do are not that hard to do. We just need to slowly start seeing the “hidden suffering” in things that we perceive to provide pleasure. Just like a fish bites into a “tasty looking” worm on a hook, we tend to overlook the suffering hidden in sense pleasures. Simple life is a happy life.
It may be a good idea to read of the posts in the following sections. Each person’s level of understanding is different. So, one can read different sections and see which ones resonate with oneself.
“Moral Living and Fundamentals”
“Living Dhamma““Speaking of that, AN 10.63 Nitthangatasutta opens with: all those who have come to a conclusion about me are accomplished in view. (“Ye keci, bhikkhave, mayi niṭṭhaṃ gatā sabbe te diṭṭhisampannā.) The two single words’mayi. and ‘nittham’ are not translated into English, only a ? is supplied. By ‘“all those who have come to a conclusion about me” I felt a surge of joy in the heart, taking that to mean ‘those whose confidence and faith in the Buddha has become well-grounded, unshakable , the very basis of their lives – and so they have come to hold right view” Does the original Pali justify this rendering?”
Yes. Very good. Now you can see why I say this Dhamma has been hidden all these years.
Regarding AN 4.34:
Pasāda is the key word in the sutta. It means a combination of confidence/faith/reverence/joy all combined.One who has pasāda about something becomes pasannā.
“Ye, bhikkhave, buddhe pasannā, agge te pasannā” means one who has developed pasāda for the Buddha has attained the foremost pasāda.
– “agga” means foremost or best.
– So, the sutta lists four things that belong to “foremost pasāda”: Buddha, ariya aṭṭhaṅgika magga, virāga dhamma, saṅgha.Then, “Agge kho pana pasannānaṃ aggo vipāko hoti“, means “(having) foremost pasāda leads to foremost (best) results (vipaka)”.
So, your translation was good there too.
This is a sutta with a deep meaning that needs to be translated carefully. This is why I keep saying that one needs to be careful when reading English translations of suttas.
- While existing English translations of many suttas are OK, there are exceptions like this one (and of course those to do with anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc).
The key (and starting verse) is: “Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi, tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā dukkhassantakiriyaṃ vadāmi.”
I have not had much time to think about it. But I think this is the key idea in that verse:
“Bhikkhus, as long as one does kamma without understanding “san” (how defilements are associated with their certain actions or “appaṭisaṃveditvā”), they will never be able to bring existence to an end (byantibhavama), either in this life, the next life or in any future life. Therefore, they will not be able to bring suffering to an end (dukkhassantakiriyaṃ).When one comprehends Tilakkhana, AND becomes good at being mindful (Satipatthana), one can quickly figure out whether an action that one is about to take is a bad one. One becomes “patisamvedi” and is called “sampajanno” when one gets good at it.
– That means one can “feel” automatically whether a given action that one is about to take is a good or bad one.This is explained in detail in “Kāyānupassanā – The Section on Habits (Sampajānapabba)“.
– It may be a good idea to read the sections before that too: “Maha Satipatthana Sutta“.Note that there is no mention of “vipaka” in that verse. The translation is completely wrong.
y not said: “In short it says that getting rid of desire and ill-will and practicing Metta to all beings makes one an Anagami.” AND
“Of course, the first three fetters are not mentioned, i.e.they are taken as already destroyed, so this must be referring to Sakadagamis here (ABSENCE of desire and ill-will)..”
Those two statements summarize the situation:
In order to get the Anagami stage via metta bhavana, one must have comprehended Tilakkhana at least to the level of a Sotapanna (Sakadagami stage is not necessary, even though better).
– Absence of desire and lii-will need only to be suppressed while doing the metta bhavana (i.e., absent during the bhavana); if they have been removed, then one is already an Anagami.Yes. Welcome to the forum, Lvalio!
I have been travelling today.
Thanks to upekkha for providing the information for Lvalio.
” whether listening is a requirement in attaining the Sotapanna
Stage.”Yes. It is.
I have mentioned is in a post. I am travelling today.Hello Lang,
Yes. You are doing the right things. Let us know your progress and if you have questions on the way.
May the Blessings of the Triple Gem be with you in your efforts!
As I said in a different post, it is not possible to quantify the “strengths” of different types of kamma. Some of what you stated do make sense, though.
Furthermore,when they bring vipaka normally many past kamma are combined, so it is not at all possible to sort things out.
It is enough to know the general trends. We should abstain from all four of those things to do with akusala kamma.
To repeat what I had stated earlier:
From the Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77):“There are these four things that are not to be conjectured about, that could make one go mad (become a mental patient). Which four?
- The Buddha-range (i.e., Buddha’s knowledge) is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about.
- The jhana-range of a person in jhana (including kinds of supernormal powers that one can attain).
- The precise workings of kamma.
- Origins of the world.
These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness and confusion to anyone who tries to find everything about them.”
