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Dhamma123 said: “He (Buddha) never said evil should defeat good, thus he never declared violence must always be avoided for lay people. I hope this is clear.”
It is not clear at all.
You are thinking in mundane terms, trying to overcome evil by more evil. Like : “If someone hits you, you have a right to hit back; may be even you can get rid of his threats by just killing him” sort of an attitude.
This is a hard point for many people to understand. The “time lag” involved in results (kamma vipaka) for one’s actions (kamma); see, “Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination“. At least read starting from #14.
One may be able to “solve the problem” of being threatened by someone by just killing him. That is the mundane solution. But one will be paying for that immoral act by suffering for a long time in an apaya.
– That is what one should really fear.
– And that fear can be removed by getting to the Sotapanna stage. One will never do such acts and thus one will never be born in an apaya.The kind of pain and fear that you are experiencing is at the next level. That pain and fear will be removed at the Anagami stage. Then one would never embrace even “moral sense pleasures” because one could see the drawbacks (and dangers) of those too.
– This may be a harder point to comprehend. The closest analogy is that of a fish biting into a “tasty bait”. The fish is not doing anything immoral per se. But it does not see the “hidden suffering” and excruciating pain that would result if it bites that bait. That is called avijja or ignorance.
– In the same way, most people don’t the see the pain and suffering that they experience is due to their actions based on cravings. This is hard to see for an ordinary human, just like a fish cannot see the suffering hidden in the tasty bait. Even Sotapannas have difficulty with that.That is why one needs to proceed step-by-step. First learn more TRUE Dhamma and try to remove future suffering in the apayas by getting to the Sotapanna stage.
– But one must first get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi one has (which you obviously have, because your understanding of kamma and kamma vipaka is poor).
– I would recommend to you or anyone interested the following sections;
“Moral Living and Fundamentals” and first subsections in:
“Living Dhamma“Dhamma123: There is nothing there to backup your claim: ““Which is why Lord Buddha never said his lay followers must always avoid violence, in fact he did advice Kings to have armies and police personnel.”
In any case, in your first post on this topic you said: “I have some sense of fear when it comes to pain, I pressume it has to do with aversion to pain.”
Everyone is afraid of pain. No one likes the pain and tries to avoid pain.
I am not sure why you think it is just you.The solution is always to live a moral and simple life, avoiding extreme greed and extreme anger first. Our minds are stressed with excess greed and hate that arises due to ignorance of the real nature of this this world.
If you like, you can read some of the posts in this section:
Living Dhamma – FundamentalsDhamma123 said: “I’m sad and disappointed I had to explain that..”
You did not explain anything, according to Buddha Dhamma.
You said: “Which is why Lord Buddha never said his lay followers must always avoid violence, in fact he did advice Kings to have armies and police personnel.”
Again, when you make statements like this, please give a reference in the Tipitaka. Buddha NEVER gave such advice. Where did you learn this “Dhamma”?
It is definitely not Buddha Dhamma.“I hope this isn’t another westernized hippie forum.”
I don’t know what you mean by a “hippie forum”. This is a forum on Buddha Dhamma.
“Lord Buddha never said violence must ALWAYS be rejected by lay people.”
I am not sure what you mean by that. If someone is being beaten, he/she should not give-in to that beating willingly.
– There are ways to avoid beating in the first place (by not doing harm to others.
– Getting beaten up could be unavoidable kamma vipaka (having beaten someone previously in a vicious way) or by making conditions suitable for a kamma vipaka to come to fruition.You may want to read the post: “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.
Dhamma123 said: ” I live in a world where violence in speech/body can be useful for self defense.”
It is up to each person to decide how to live one’s life. The Buddha only pointed out the consequences of violent acts against others. It does not matter whether one is a bhikkhu or not.
You said: “Lord Buddha said it is impossible to live in this world without harming anybody..”.
That did not include violence. That meant, for example, in following cases:
When one walks on grass, one may be killing a lot of small insects. When one applies medicine to a wound, one may be killing a lot of microscopic living beings. Those are not intentional and cannot be avoided.But hitting someone, just because that person hit you, can be avoided. And it will save a lot of suffering in the future for oneself (and for the other person too, since if you hit him he may hit back again). By the way, this is what is really meant by being mindful (Anapana/Satipatthana).
Violence CANNOT be stopped by more violence. That is what y not explained above.
Yeos: “As they did in Japan i.e. see Takuan’s and the samurais.”
Let us not get to these weird topics on samurai. This is a forum on Buddha Dhamma. I am just going to delete any such future posts.
Buddha Dhamma is based on non-violence. One has to understand that first.
Retaliating likewise may seem rational, but it is not. One will pay the consequences in future lives. This is what is so hard for many people to understand. There is a time lag of doing bad deeds and reaping their benefits. I discussed this in the most recent post,”Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination“.
Dhamma123, Welcome to the forum!
You said: “Of course jhanas are necessary to become an ahrant. It’s in the eightfold path and it is explained so in the suttanta.”
Please explain. We just don’t make statements here. One needs to provide evidence from the Tipitaka. Where are jhanas mentioned in the Eightfold Path?
Think of it this way:
Two apple seeds are not the same. They both will yield apple trees. But one may yield a lot of fruit and another may yield less, even if planted under the same conditions (or one may wither and die early, catch a disease, etc etc).
These are very complex issues.
upekkha100 said: “What instructions did the Buddha recommend for anariyas who are following the mundane Path to cultivate the jhanas?”
None.
“If not through breathing, what was the method he approved of?”
Mundane eightfold path first and then the Noble Eightfold Path. Samadhi (and jhanas whenever possible) will come automatically. Jhansa are not necessary even for the Arahanthood:
“Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, Sīla, Samādhi”“I feel I can’t focus on a concept for that long, nor on metta.”
That could be because you may not have fulfilled enough sila or not gotten rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi:
“Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)”A final word:
I personally know people who are addicted to “jhanic pleasures”. They have stopped pursuing Dhamma any further and are stuck now.
– In fact there are people who are addicted to just a “calm state of mind” that they get when doing breath meditation, especially at retreats. So, they just keep going back to retreats to get another dose once in a while.
– I think that is a pathetic situation. Getting rid of greed, hate, and ignorance requires an effort: lead a moral life cultivating true Anapana/Satipatthana (see the Meditation section), and learn true and pure dhamma.Here is what I said in an earlier post on this topic:
When one does insight mediation, one first gets to samadhi, and eventually gets to the Arahanthood, as described in the Upanisa Sutta (SN 12.23):“..With the comprehension of suffering (i.e., the First Noble Truth via Tilakkhana) faith results; with the growth of faith, lightness of mind (pāmojjaṃ) arises; with increasing lightness of mind, joy (piti) arises; with increasing joy, lightness of the body (passaddhi) arises; with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises; with increasing bodily sukha, samādhi arises; with samādhi, yathābhūtañāṇadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they really are) arises; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, one loses attachment to worldly things (nibbidā), followed by losing cravings for sense pleasures (viragā), and liberation (vimutti), and to the destruction of all defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ)”.
Now, jhana may be attained anytime around the step, “with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises“.
– One may proceed all the way to Arahanthood without getting to jhanas.
That is from my earlier post.Ariya jhanas start with the Anagami stage (kama raga not merely suppressed but removed). So, they are unlikely to get “hooked to” jhanic pleasures. Even if they do, it will not matter much because they will not come back from the brahma realms to the lower realms.
January 15, 2019:
Just posted: “Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run“.I don’t think there is any benefit in discussing in great detail a process that happens within a billionth of a second.
Such processes are discernible only to the mind of a Buddha. It is good know that he has described the mind processes in such detail. But I don’t think what cetasika are incorporated at what stage has been discussed in Tipitaka. That would serve not much added benefit.
Nibbana is attained via getting rid of greed, hate, and ignorance from our minds. It is better to focus on that primary goal.
In order to get rid of ignorance, we DO NEED TO see some of these details (some of it to realize that the Buddha really did know these processes inside out, so that we can faith in his Dhamma). But there is a limit to such probing. There is no need to know such details as what cetasika are incorporated at what stage.
January 15, 2019:
Just posted “Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run“.“Respecting and making offerings to those with higher virtues has no merits”.
For example, bhikkhus belong to this category. They are the ones who mainly sustain the Buddha Sasana (especially in the old days, where there was no printed material available).
– Other than that bhikkhus are the symbols of Buddha Sasana. I pay respects to any bhikkhu because he represents Buddha Sasana.
– The Buddha has said, there will be a time towards the end of the Buddha Sasana, where a bhikkhu will not be wearing the yellow robe, but just having a yellow band around his wrist. He said that one would still get full benefits (merits) by making offerings to that “bhikkhu”.Another aspect is that one should also respect those who teach moral values, even outside the Buddha Sasana. They COULD BE Bodhisattvas too. As a Bodhisattva, our Buddha had taught moral values to people many, many times in his past lives.
Happy New Year to you too, Lang!
Yes. As I mentioned in one of those two posts, each quality of a Buddha can be described in many ways.
– The qualities of a Buddha cannot really described in a limited way. They are infinite. I have not seen a reference to a sutta, but Waharaka Thero has mentioned that there is a sutta that states so. And I have no doubt about that.
– The point is that each one of us starts with that set of nine described in a way we can understand (and each of us may be described differently by differently people; I have a book in Sinhala on the 24 supreme qualities of the Tiratana or Three Jewels: Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha).
– As our understanding grows, we can see that those nine are inadequate, even if we stick to just nine.
– One’s faith grows too, and that is all that matters. That mindset is important, since it allows one to comprehend deeper Dhamma. Some people disregard these chantings as “ritualistic”, but they are not, if one does that with understanding. Of course, chanting the verses like a parrot will be of no use.upekkha100 said: ” So at the early stage of a citta, is the cetana cetasika neutral too like phassa/sanna/vedana/and the rest of the universal cetasika?”
The cetana cetasika is ALWAYS neutral. It just combines the universal cetasika with a set of sobhana or asobhana cetasika that arises due to one’s gati.
– When the Buddha said, “cetanaham Bhikkhave kammam vadami“, he meant when the cetana cetasika combined a set of cetasika, the mind will then act accordingly (moral or immoral kamma could be done).upekkha100 said:” at the very early initial stage, is it correct to say that cetana does not incorporate any of the kamma generating cetasikas(neither asobhana cetasika nor sobhana cetasika)?”
Yes. At the citta stage, cetana has only combined the 7 universal cetasika.
The 9 stages are discussed in a simple way at: “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Stages of a Thought“.
Tobias said: ” How can the gatis of the parents get matched in that case? Where is the “mind-component” stored all this time?”
Those gatis were frozen in the sperm and the egg, just like the “properties of a plant to be arisen” are encoded in a seed. Of course, the gati would be mainly those that the mother and father had at that time.
However, the gati of the mother and father at the current time may have an effect too, especially if they are very different. Everything in this world is inter-connected in a subtle way:”Quantum Entanglement – We Are All Connected“.
y not said: ” It is of more concern what the state of a frozen EMBRYO is , that is, once the gandhabba has entered. Will the ‘mind-component’, as you have it, that is, the gandhabba ,frozen for all that time?”
Gandhabba would enter the zygote created by the union of the egg and sperm after the egg and sperm are unfrozen and combined. I think they are kept frozen separately. I am not sure.
– If they are combined before freezing, but right after combining, there may or may not have enough time for the gandhabba to “take possession” of the zygote created.
– If there is indeed a “frozen gandhabba”, it could come out or stay frozen. But that is getting into speculation.“So how can an Arahant have vinnana?”
I can explain this only so many times. I have said so many times that an Arahant has “undefiled vinnana”. If you try to be a lawyer and not willing to understand Dhamma, there is not much I can do.
When the Buddha said, “I was born such and such a person” long time ago, he did not literally mean that. There is no “I” going from one birth to another. It is just continuing “lifestream” filled with suffering, that will end upon Parinibbana.
Somethings need to be just understood. There is simply no assigned special name for the vinnana of an Arahant. Those who understand what is meant by vinnana KNOW that vinnana of an Arahant is undefiled.
I will have no more comments on this issue.
