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Yes. That was not quite correctly worded. I will think about how to revise that. They start remembering “getting together and enjoying the company of others.”
- It is not the same as the desire for sensory pleasures or kama raga.
- The desire for sensory pleasures comes gradually after they are reborn on the newly-formed Earth.
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The following draft is an introduction to the Aggañña Sutta. It should appear before the previous post. I will write another post to be the third post on the Aggañña Sutta. Such a three-part series should provide enough information. Please free to ask questions. I hope to post the final version as a regular post over the weekend.
Aggañña Sutta Discussion – Introduction
Introduction
1. In a previous post, “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27),” I discussed the salient aspects of Buddha’s explanation of our physical universe. That post raises many questions in the minds of those who read it for the first time because Buddha’s answer is drastically different from the picture proposed by modern science.
- Modern science’s current theory is that the universe started with a “Big Bang” out of nothing about 15 billion years ago, i.e., the universe did not exist before that.
- In contrast, the Buddha taught that each of us is going through a rebirth process with “no discernible beginning,” i.e., the universe has existed forever!
- Those are two very different “worldviews.”
2. In the “Aggañña Sutta (DN 270)” the Buddha explained that the universe is not static, i.e., it does not remain the same over time. He taught that Earth — with its Sun and other planets — (called a cakkavāla) is one of the uncountable such systems in the universe.
- A cluster of 10,000 such cakkavāla constitutes a “loka dhātu,” and there could be an uncountable number of them in the universe.
- Such a “loka dhātu” undergoes a cyclic process of destruction and re-formation over billions of years, i.e., it is destroyed and then re-formed over many billions of years. However, only a few are in the “destruction phase” at a given time.
- Every year, scientists observe a few such destructions with their telescopes. There must also be a few “re-formations,” but scientists cannot observe them. All scientific observations of the universe are based on detecting light emitted by the stars. For example, the destruction of a “loka dhātu” is due to the “blowing-up” of a star in that cluster, and scientists can easily observe that intense light from such a supernova explosion.
- However, there is no available mechanism to observe re-formation of a cakkavāla, which happens over billions of years (as pointed in “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”)
3. Even though the “dense matter” (including the human realm) in all of those 10,000 cakkavāla disappear (destroyed), the living beings in them survive in higher-lying realms that are not destroyed. Thus, “destruction” means only the destruction of the “realms of living beings with dense bodies,” and living beings there would have moved up to higher “less-dense realms” (at or above the Ābhassara Brahma realm) well before the destruction takes place.
- All cakkavāla in a loka dhātu remain in that state for billions of years. Toward the latter half of that phase, all those Brahmas start “missing their sensual pleasures” they enjoyed while in the lower dense realms. Their desire to go back to such a way of living creates suddhāṭṭhaka (the fundamental particle in Buddha Dhamma; see below) in abundance; the accumulation of them over billions of years lead to the re-formation of the Sun, Earth, and other planets (cakkavāla.) It happens to all cakkavāla in that loka dhātu.
- When each cakkavāla is re-formed, those lower-lying realms are re-populated over billions of years. See the introduction in “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” for details.
- A critical point is that only a tiny fraction of the universe is destroyed periodically, not the whole universe.
Scientific Theories about the Universe Have Evolved
4. Even a few hundred years ago, scientists (or, more accurately, philosophers and religions, because no actual science existed before Galileo’s generation) believed our Earth was at the center of the universe: “Geocentric model.” They thought “Gods” resided in the “heavenly sphere” with the stars above the Earth.
- Only after Galileo invented the telescope (in the late 1500s) did true science emerge, and it was realized that the Earth (and other planets) orbited around the Sun. Even as recently as at the beginning of the 1900s, Lord Kelvin (one of the top scientists of the day) estimated that the age of the Sun was less than 40 million years. Our knowledge of the universe was also pretty much limited to the Solar system. So, this meant the age of our “known universe” was very short.
- Thus, the Buddha’s teachings on a universe filled with an uncountable number of cakkavāla going through a cyclic “destruction/re-formation” process lasting billions of years seemed preposterous even in the year 1900!
- Vindication of the Buddha’s teachings started in the 1900s with the advent of quantum mechanics and relativity. Becquerel’s Discovery of radioactivity in 1898 and Einstein’s explanation of the photoelectric effect in 1905 led to the quantum theory of atomic structure. That, in turn, led to the correct picture of nuclear fusion as the source of solar energy.
- By 1956, the solar system’s age was more than 4 billion years, and the universe’s age was estimated to be around 14 billion years. Yet, even billions of years are hardly the same as “beginning-less time”!
5. Then, scientists discovered that our Solar system was just one of billions of such “star systems” in the Milky Way galaxy and that there were other such galaxies in the universe.
- By 1929, Edwin Hubble proved that distant galaxies were moving away from each other and that our galaxy was but one of many galaxies. That was a vast understatement since now we know that there are well over 100 billion galaxies in our observable universe!
- So, the “scientific view” of the universe is much closer to the Buddha’s worldview now regarding its vastness (the uncountable number of stars) and the basic structure of planets around each star (cakkavāla). Therefore, it is clear that, at least in that respect, science has gradually proved the validity of Buddha’s explanations about the universe.
- The remaining significant difference is regarding the universe’s age, as discussed in #1 above. Scientists say the universe was “born out of nothing” about 15 billion years ago. The Buddha taught that only tiny sections (loka dhātu with 10,000 cakkavāla) go through a cyclic “destruction/re-formation” process over many billions of years and that there is no traceable beginning to that process.
The Immensity of the Universe
6. At this point, it is worthwhile to pause and consider how incredible it is that a single human could “see” the universe’s structure using only his mind 2600 years ago. It took 400 years for modern science to reach this level of understanding after 400 years of effort by many generations of scientists.
- The following is a high-resolution image of our Milky Way galaxy. We can see only a couple of thousand stars with our naked eyes, as indicated by the “red dot” in the image. But there are hundreds of BILLIONS of stars in our galaxy. Furthermore, there are about an equal number of GALAXIES in our universe. Thus, there is a whole galaxy for each star in our galaxy. It is truly mind-boggling.
- Even a few hundred years ago, it was believed our Earth was at the center of the universe; see #4 above.
- Therefore, Buddha’s view of the universe as consisting of innumerable “world systems” was not looked at favorably even a few hundred years ago. Of course, that has changed now.
Our “Mundane Knowledge Base”
7. Humans have developed many “theories” or “views” about the world. Those who focus on this issue fall into two categories: scientists and philosophers.
- Both scientists and philosophers come to conclusions based on their observations of the external world, i.e., their sensory experiences.
- However, our sensory experiences are limited. In particular, we can “see” the world only through a narrow wavelength range, and even then, we can see only a limited distance.
- As we discussed above, Galileo’s discovery of the telescope enhanced that capability, i.e., our sensory experience. Subsequently, scientists have improved their ability to see through vast distances in space.
- The image in #6 above provides a good visualization of this capability. Even though all our telescopes are within the “red dot,” we can deduce details of the structures of galaxies even outside our galaxy!
Limitations of Scientific Techniques
8. However, we should not be fooled into thinking that those measurements provide the “whole picture.”
- As I mentioned above, all those images are based on light emitted by stars!
- We (I mean the scientists) can only indirectly infer things about planets around other stars. For example, they deduce the number of plants around a star by monitoring the shadow cast on that star’s light by the movements of those planets. Incredibly, they have enough precision in their measurements to accomplish that.
- However, scientists are genuinely blind to whether there is life on those planets! Biological activities do not generate light.
9. Some say we should be able to detect emissions (light or radio signals) from highly advanced living beings on some of those faraway planets. Would that be possible?
- The closest star (cakkavāla) in our loka dhātu is about four light years away (and thousands of such stars are within the “red dot” in the image above!
- That means a rocket ship traveling at the speed of light will take four years to reach the closest star. For comparison, the distance from the Earth to our Moon would take only 1.25 SECONDS. Therefore, a rocket ship traveling at the speed of light will take only 1.25 SECONDS to arrive at the Moon! But our rocketships take about three days to get to the Moon. Therefore, a modern rocketship would take about 800 thousand years (depending on the speed attained in interstellar space) to reach the NEAREST star. See “Pāṭihāriya (Supernormal Abilities) of a Buddha – Part I.”
- No matter how intense a light beam (like a laser), it will fade away at distances of the order of light years. Scientists can monitor only light from stars at such distances, and no artificial light source can match a star.
The Universe Is Unfathomably Enormous and Complex
10. Even the “range of a Buddha” is limited to a loka dhātu with 10,000 cakkavāla.
- Since the Milky Way galaxy has roughly 100 billion stars, it contains 100 million loka dhātu!
- This is why the Buddha admonished us not to probe the details of the universe. It is an impossible task, and it will consume precious time that could be used to reach the end of suffering!
11. From the Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77):
“There are four things that are not to be conjectured about, which could make one go mad (become a mental patient). Which four?
(i). “Buddha’s knowledge is unconjecturable and not to be conjectured about.
(ii). The details of jhāna (including kinds of supernormal powers that one can attain).
(iii). The precise workings of the results of kamma, i.e., kamma vipāka.
(iv). Origins/details about the external world, i.e., the universe.”- These are the four incomprehensible things that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness and confusion to anyone who tries to find everything about them.
Basic Knowledge Necessary to “End the Suffering”
12. However, getting SOME IDEA about the broader world of 31 realms is good. No single sutta or a chapter on Abhidhamma is focused on that.
- I have collected bits and pieces of information in many places in the Tipiṭaka and tried to form a crude picture. We will never be able to go into fine details. Even if the Buddha wanted to, he would not have been able to provide such a vast amount of information. People kept asking him questions about the universe, and in most cases, he refused. Agganna Sutta is an exception.
- He said he does not want people to get distracted from the main goal: to end future suffering in the rebirth process.
- I will discuss some critical issues relevant to understanding the fundamental principles of Buddha’s teachings in the next post, “Aggañña Sutta Discussion – Part 2.”
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It seems that Dosakkhayo and Pathfinder are deeply thinking about this issue. Of course, Taryal started this discussion with a similar mindset and curiosity.
- These are all good questions. As a physicist, these questions also came up when I started learning Dhamma seriously after retirement.
- It is probably time to write a sequence to the post on the Agganna sutta, which I revised a couple of days ago: “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
- I will write a draft and post it here first. It may take a day or two.
- However, a critical point to remember is that all these questions are based on our “mundane knowledge base,” primarily on (i) modern science and (ii) our own sensory experiences (“sañjānāti and vijānāti“). It helps to do an overview of how the predictions of the Buddha have compared to those of science over the years. Science has discarded several earlier “theories” over time to be compatible with Buddha’s teachings. It is a good idea to read “Dhamma and Science – Introduction” and “Cognition Modes – Sañjānāti, Vijānāti, Pajānāti, Abhijānāti” about those two issues. Buddha’s teachings are based on a completely different worldview (pajānāti and abhijānāti.)
- If anyone has other questions on the subject, please feel free to ask. I can also try to address those.
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The critical point is that suddhāṭṭhaka formation takes place in minds!
- Anything created by the mind cannot last forever. The lifetime of a set of suddhāṭṭhaka depends on the level of raga, dosa, and moha involved in the mind.
- Thus, a set of suddhāṭṭhaka created by a human while hitting/killing another human arises with dosa and moha. They will bring harsh outcomes, but those outcomes will deplete their energy relatively quickly. In contrast, a human cultivating a jhana seeking birth in a Brahma realm is mainly associated with rupa raga and moha. They bring results that are much less stressful and also last longer.
- Dosa brings the most suffering; kama raga, rupa raga, and arupa raga are less potent in that order. Of course, moha is associated with decreasing levels there, too. Dosa causes fires and other punishments in niraya (hell), the environment that a hell-being is subjected to. Kama loka, rupa loka, and arupa loka have decreasing levels of suffering.
- Thus, both sensory faculties for a given existence and the environment in that existence are created by the mental energy in javana cittas. That is one version of the “previously unheard teachings of a Buddha.”
A post discusses this to some extent: “Ye Dhammā Hetuppabhavā.. and Yam Kiñci Samudaya Dhammam..“
- More relevant posts: “Search Results for: dhammā hetuppabhavā“
- This is a deep subject and may not be suitable/understandable for those without sufficient background.
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Dosakkhayo’s description is not quite right.
- I suggest carefully reading the post “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
- I just revised it to address some of those points and made some revisions, too.
For example, it is incorrect to say the following. “2. Therefore, there is always ‘pre-existing matter.’”
- All dense matter will be destroyed when the Solar system and Earth are destroyed. The re-formation of the Solar system occurs over many billions of years. That has origins in suddhāṭṭhaka formation by an uncountable number of Brahmas in the Ābhassara Brahma realm over billions of years.
Please feel free to ask questions. It is impossible to cover this complex subject in a single post.
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Yes. “Buddha could recall past lives and see many formations and destructions of star systems.”
- See an introduction in “Dhamma and Science – Introduction.”
It is only the mundane version of “samma samadhi.”
- Getting rid of 10 types of miccha ditthi (the focus in the sutta) helps avoid rebirth in an apaya in the short term.
- To reach “lokuttara Samma Samadhi,” one needs to comprehend the Four Noble Truths/PS/Tilakkhana.
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Yes. The translation could be better. That is another example of translating “word-by-word” without understanding the meaning.
A better translation is: “Even if what this good teacher says is true, it’s a safe bet for me to not hurt any creature firm or frail.”
- I suggest reading the English translation starting @22.3 in this link; “Pāṭaliya Sutta (SN 42.13).”
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Thank you, Pathfinder, for the information you uncovered.
- Another relevant sutta: “Ujjaya Sutta (AN 8.55)“
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I think the Buddha pointed out a list of livelihoods (jobs) one must avoid; those include selling meat and alcohol, the slave trade, etc., as I remember. I don’t have the time to look into it today. If someone knows a sutta, please post.
- Singapore is mostly a “neutral” country, so the chances of you engaging in a war are small.
- However, moving to less controversial employment is wise, if possible. It would be difficult to avoid killing if a war starts.
Hopefully, the following description will give you a good idea. But feel free to ask questions.
1. Pancupadanakkhandha (PUK) accumulation occurs when a mind attaches to a sensory input (arammana.)
- For example, PUK accumulation does not occur while we are in sleep.
- Furthermore, the process never starts at the pancakkhandha state. Our minds attach to PUK and keep on adding to it.
2. The following figure shows the accumulation of PUK in kama loka (i.e., applicable to humans). The figure shows the expansion of vinnana, i.e., the build-up of vinnanakkhandha.
- It starts with a sensory input (arammana) leading to the registration of a rupa (six types: vanna rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, pottabbha, dhamma) in mind. Those are NOT external rupa. Those mental rupas arise simultaneously with vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana in mind.
- The chart below shows how a cakkhu viññāṇa starts with a rupa (visual) as a sensory input. A sensory event starts on the left at the “dhātu stage.” While the mind of an Arahant stops there, that of a puthujjana keeps evolving to the right, becoming increasingly defiled.
3. As we can see from the figure, a vinnana starts as a “bahidda vinnana” and immediately becomes an “ajjhatta vinnana” for a puthujjana.
- Rupa (that arises in mind), vedana, sanna, and sankhara associated with bahidda and ajjhatta vinnana also fall into those two categories. For example, the rupa also transitions from a bahidda rupa to an ajjhatta rupa.
- That is the beginning of the development of the 11 types.
4. Vinnana (and PUK) expand as the mind gets increasingly attached to the arammana. The expansion of vinnana (in two stages of purana kamma and nava kamma) is shown in the figure.
- That is a highly complex process. During both stages, the mind recalls similar previous events (atita vinnana) and also generates expectations of similar vinnana in the future (anagata vinnana). They have associated rupa (that arises in mind), vedana, sanna, and sankhara. Of course, paccuppanna vinnana arises at each moment.
- Those are the atita, anagata, and paccuppanna components of PUK.
5. So far, we have discussed five of the 11 components. To get an idea of the rest, we need to look at the “bigger picture,” including rupa and arupa loka relative to Nibbana (or the pabhassara mind). That figure is shown below.
6. Similar processes occur for rupa loka and arupa loka Brahmas (details not shown). While the mind of a being (say a human) in kama loka falls on “kama dhatu” and proceeds to the bahiddha vinnana stage, a rupa loka Brahma‘s mind would fall on “rupa dhatu” and proceed to the bahidda vinnana stage (and go through the subsequent similar steps).
- All five entities in PUK proceed the same way in rupa and arupa loka.
7. As we can see from the second figure, kama loka is the furthest from Nibbana. Rupa loka is next, and arupa loka is the closest to Nibbana.
- Thus, the five entities associated with the kama loka are labeled “dure” (far away), and the other two are closer (santike).
- In the same way, the five entities associated with the kama loka are labeled coarse (olārika), and the other two are finer (sukuma).
- In the same way, the five entities associated with the kama loka are labeled inferior (hīna), and the other two superior (paṇīta).
8. That is a brief description of the 11 types of PUK.
Note: The top figure is from “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” and the second figure from “Vipariṇāma – Two Meanings.”
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I decided to start explaining saññā vipallāsa (or “distorted/false saññā” ) from another perspective in a series of posts. Hopefully, that would help convey the basic idea before we use an Abhidhamma analysis to get into details.
- That should help explain the connection to suddhāṭṭhaka (pure octad) formation, giving rise to a “distorted/false saññā” of a sweet taste in honey or sugar, for example.
- The first post on that series was posted today: “Attaining Nibbāna Requires Understanding Buddha’s Worldview.”
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@Saurabh:
To become a Sotapanna, it is essential to understand Paticca Samuppada. You may want to peruse this section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English“
- Another approach is to get an idea about anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). You could start here: “Anicca – True Meaning.” The following section has audio files I recorded some time back: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“
- OR, you may already have an idea of where to start.
- The key is to start from a point with some definite traction. You can feel that instinctively when you encounter the right “area.” Once you get some traction, there is no stopping!
1. I started thinking about what I wrote above. It may not be possible to write a post like that immediately. A bit more background is necessary.
- We are discussing an issue at the heart of Buddha’s teachings.
- It may not be possible with even a couple of posts. This is about trying to explain the complex world with a brand-new approach.
- Imagine someone trying to explain nuclear physics with a few lectures or posts. That requires learning the background material first.
2. I have learned Abhidhamma from my school days. I think Seng Kiat has done the same. I don’t know of anyone else with such a background on this forum. There could be none. If anyone has such a background, I would appreciate knowing who it is and their opinions on these recent posts on suddhatthaka and also saññā vipallāsa.
- It is good to get feedback from those who are at least familiar with Abhidhamma.
3. For others, I recommend reading through the posts I suggested above. Seng Kiat has also provided a helpful reference (I have not read that). I offered a couple more in “Abhidhamma – Introduction.”
- Reading the “Abhidhamma” section could be a helpful first step.
4. However, it is a good idea to continue this discussion by asking specific questions about the posts I referred to or other suggested references.
- Those questions should not be on the endpoint (e.g., how the “sweetness of sugar” gets embedded in sugar).
- That requires a lengthy explanation, which can be given only to someone familiar with the basic concepts of Abhidhamma.
- Many of my old posts assumed that background, and I now realize that many people found them too difficult to comprehend.
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Hello Hugo,
No. I don’t get mad at any comment or commenter. I try to respond in detail to questions that can help the questioner and the wider audience. I try to avoid issues that do not benefit anyone (in my opinion).
- I think Waisaka made some wise comments above.
You wrote: “Question 12: Have you ever seen a video of Ramana Maharshi? He looks like an Arahant, doesn’t he? No will, no desire, no motivation… no clothes! Yet, the people who stood around him would feel their minds calming and being able to realize the nature of reality. My simple mind cannot imagine anything more “Arahant” than that.”
- I can only say, “Don’t judge a book by its cover.”
- That is a commonly used phrase. It means one should not judge the worth or value of something or someone solely by their outward appearance.
P.S. To judge the usefulness of a book, one must read the book. In the same way, one must listen (or read) what someone says to understand its value.
- For example, consider a beautifully decorated bowl. We don’t know what is inside until we open its lid and examine the content. If it contains feces (or urine), it is worthless. On the other hand, a rusted bowl is valuable if it contains a gem.
