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“If Nibbana was created due to the eightfold path or some practise it would be conditioned.”
It is essential to realize the following:
– Nibbana is NOT CREATED.
– Nibbana is ATTAINED when all defilements or CAUSES (greed, anger, ignorance) are REMOVED from one’s mind.
– The Eightfold Path is the WAY TO REMOVE defilements.When one removes ALL CAUSES then one ends up with the UNCAUSED (i.e., no causes remain) and UNCONDITIONED (Nibbana).
The CAUSES are greed, anger, ignorance.
P.S. We do accumulate punna kamma (and cultivate the three good roots of alobha, adosa, amoha) while we are on the Path. But at the end, at the Arahant stage, all those are also given up when wisdom (panna) reaches its peak.
– Therefore, the net result is that when panna is at peak, one sees the futility of even a trace of anything to do with the 31 realms. That is the “full Nibbana”.Siebe’s questions:
“Yesterday on tv was the case of a mother who killed her two children. She was always very caring. But some day developed a depression and took medicine, a antidepressend. Probably these medicine have triggered agression and her violence against her own children.”If someone commits an immoral deed while not been aware of it (say, becoming insane or while sleepwalking), then the Buddha had said that there are no kammic consequences.
“What about children getting brainwashed by IS ideology or sektarian ways of thinking?”
Unfortunately, the Buddha did not set these kammic laws. Those are Nature’s laws.
– It is parents’ responsibility to make sure that children are not influenced by “bad influences” whether it is friends or via the internet. They will suffer their own kammic consequences.“How can people be held responsible for such when there has not even yet developed a personal conscience, or right view? How can one say the blind are responsible? The blind cannot be held responsible.”
Nothing happens without causes. One is born blind, born with “less wisdom”, or even born into conditions where one does not even get an opportunity to learn Dhamma,these are all due to one’s previous kamma (actions).
– This is not any different from being born an animal or peta. Is it “fair” for one to be born an animal? It is not matter of fairness; it is just cause and effect.
– Again, these are Nature’s laws. A Buddha only discovers them.“To think we are so free and wise is a big mistake…”
No one said that. Think about what is stated above.
– Whatever the condition that each of us are at, those have arisen due to our own past actions. We have no idea when we did them, could be many lives back.
– However, with the development of panna, we can overcome tanha and be free of all suffering, EVEN IF we have done many bad kamma.
– This is why the life story of Ven. Angulimala is so important. He had killed almost thousand people, but was able to avoid all that bad kamma.
“Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma”
– Of course, he must have done very strong good kamma too, to be able to comprehend the deep Dhamma so quickly.All we can do is to make sure to not accumulate anymore bad kamma and to cultivate good kamma, and make our utmost effort to learn Dhamma to make those tasks easier. That effort will not go to waste.
1 user thanked author for this post.
Siebe wrote: “This unconditioned element is, i belief, the stable element present in any living being”
For the last time, what it is?
If you cannot say what it is, I will have no more comments.
The only “unconditioned element” is Nibbana. One needs to follow the Noble Eightfold Path to get to Nibbana.
upekkha100 raises some interesting and complex issues.
I have revised an old post, that may help answer some of those questions raised. If more questions remain, we can discuss:
“What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?“
Siebe wrote: “I think: There must be a stable element to be found in a living being”
What would that “stable element” be? Do you mean “something that is fixed, permanent”? Be specific.
This is a serious issue, and gets to the heart of Buddha Dhamma.
NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
“Now, recently I notice that I’ve been shifting through three of these states within about 15-20 minutes. This is very new to me and I’m not sure if the quick shifting through the jhanas are even relevant. I recognize the qualities of each shift very easily as, previously, I would spend hours and days in some of these states”.One can go through jhana very quickly with practice.
It is said that Ven. Sariputta could go through all 8 jhana, attain Nirodha Samapatti, and “get back” within a brief moment.Yes. One could also stay in a given jhana for hours.
Regarding: “I seem to end on the third where there is intense awareness of the space in-between objects of the world. I don’t ‘see’ objects directly but the space around them seems to have much more relevance – the paradox being that there is nothing there”
The jhanic experiences in the first four jhana are clearly described by the Buddha in the “Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)“.
The relevant section from the English translation at that site is given below, which is fairly good (It seems to me that jhanic experiences may be the same for Ariya and anariya jhanas; these jhanas correspond to mental states of rupavacara brahma realms. Also note that while abandonment of the 10 types of miccha ditthi is needed for anariya jhanas, Ariya jhanas require a level of comprehension of Tilakkhana):
The First Jhāna
“Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states (my comment: these are greed, hate/anger, and 10 types of miccha ditthi), he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.“Great king, suppose a skilled bath attendant or his apprentice were to pour soap-powder into a metal basin, sprinkle it with water, and knead it into a ball, so that the ball of soap-powder be pervaded by moisture, encompassed by moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out, yet would not trickle. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
The Second Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the subsiding of applied and sustained thought (my comment: i.e., vitakka/vicara are lost, but savitakka/savicara remain), the bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is without applied and sustained thought, and is filled with the rapture and happiness born of concentration. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of concentration, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.“Great king, suppose there were a deep lake whose waters welled up from below. It would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south, nor would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; yet a current of cool water, welling up from within the lake, would drench, steep, saturate and suffuse the whole lake, so that there would be no part of that entire lake which is not suffused with the cool water. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of concentration, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
The Third Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the fading away of rapture (my comment: i.e., piti or joy is lost), the bhikkhu dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and experiences happiness with the body. Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: ‘He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness.’ He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness.“Great king, suppose in a lotus pond there were blue, white, or red lotuses that have been born in the water, grow in the water, and never rise up above the water, but flourish immersed in the water. From their tips to their roots they would be drenched, steeped, saturated, and suffused with cool water, so that there would be no part of those lotuses not suffused with cool water. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates and suffuses his body with the happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
The Fourth Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain (my comment: there was no pain in the third jhana, just the sukha that was in the third jhana also abandoned), and with the previous passing away of joy and grief, the bhikkhu enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna, which is neither pleasant nor painful and contains mindfulness fully purified by equanimity. He sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind (my comment: one’s physical body no longer is felt, and only a “white light” is discerned; that white light is the only “rupa” left to be cognized), so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind.“Great king, suppose a man were to be sitting covered from the head down by a white cloth, so that there would be no part of his entire body not suffused by the white cloth. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
y not wrote: “Is it not that once on the Path, one needs no external help until one reaches Arahanthood?”
Yes. But causes are not enough in Buddha Dhamma; suitable conditions must be there too.
– However, suitable conditions will appear in due time. That is called the “nature of things” or “dhammatā”.
– For example, a Sotapanna (or a Sakadagami anugami) may not make any progress in a particular human birth (due to unfavorable conditions), but will catch in future births in due time.“so progress will be made even outside of a Buddha sasana.”
No progress can be made outside the Buddha Sasana.
– It must be noted that the time limit for Buddha Sasana of 5000 years or so holds only in this “human world”. That limit is not there in deva and brahma worlds.
– Buddha Sasana in the human world ends when the last Sotapanna (and of course any other with magga phala) have all passed away. But they may be reborn in higher realms and can take a much longer time to get to the Arahanthood.
– For example, a Sotapanna deva may attain the next stage much later than 5000 years.
– There are brahmas in higher brahma realms who had attained the Anagami stage during the time of a previous Buddha who lives several maha kappas earlier.That is a good discussion. Thank you Dr. Chakma, Tobias, and upekkha100.
We should also be thankful to modern science for making this possible. Four people with very different backgrounds to come together and have a discussion on Buddha Dhamma!
– Thanks also to Seng Kiat for updating and keeping track of the corrections I make to the posts. It is to be noted for those who read the eBook that I revise a couple of old posts on average each week. Please make sure you have the updated version of a given post. Revision dates are there on those posts that have been revised.Yes. Abhidhamma describes basically all processes. It is amazing how much details one can get. But we need to keep in mind that our main goal is to understand enough Dhamma to overcome suffering.
The following is a viewpoint from another angle.
Those who object to the concept of the mind being at the forefront, object that mind does not generate enough power to do bodily work (kamma).
The mind (power of the javana citta) only gets the process started. Those mind-made decisions are carried out by the brain (which is inert, just like a computer), and the energy for brain function and to move body parts come from the energy generated by the food we eat.
For example, when we wash dishes, those actions are initiated by the mind. The brain (acting like an advanced computer) gets the arms and hands and other body parts to move. It is the same with a laborer who works in a field. After few hours, he would get tried and hungry, and would need more food to continue.
It is amazing to see, how a gandhabba (mental body) that is smaller than a single cell in the body controls everything.
I have discussed this in several posts (not possible to do in a single post), and a couple are below:
Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)- IntroductionCitta and Cetasika – How Vinnana (Consciousness) Arises
When we really understand the importance of the mental body (gandhabba) our attachment to the physical body will fade. This physical body lasts only about 100 years, but the human gadnhabba may last thousands of years (of course will keep changing during that time).
– Once the gandhabba comes out, the physical body is pretty much like a log of wood.
– In case of a temporary exit (OBE), that physical body is kept alive by kammic energy, but cannot do any movements (because the brain needs instructions to move body parts).One final simple example. We can warm hands if we want to by rubbing the two hands together. Where is that heat energy coming from? It is from the food we eat. However, without the mind deciding that the hands needs to warmed, that will not happen.
P.S. All sankhara have consequences (outcomes or vipaka).
Punnabhisankhara lead to good results (sense pleasures) and good births.
Apunnabhisankhara lead to bad results (bad sense experiences) and bad births in the apayas.
“Neutral” sankhara get things done (like washing dishes or going to bathroom).Eventually, we need to stop all sankhara from arising (stopping rebirths) by cultivating panna (i.e., comprehending Tilakkhana).
– First task is to stop doing apunnabhisankhara and learn the basics of Buddha Dhamma.
– One also needs to cultivate punnabhisankhara AND learn deeper Dhamma (Paticca Samuppada, Tilakkhana, etc) too.Hi Akvan,
When one becomes a Sotapnna, one does not automatically become a Sakadagami Anugami.
– One needs to keep striving. In most cases that is likely to happen.But there are instances when one attains a magga phala at the dying moment, say the Sotapanna phala.
– But in the next birth that person may be born to a family where Buddha Dhamma may not even be heard about. In that case, one would just be a Sotapanna for the duration of that life.
– Of course, that person will attain the Arahanthood within 7 bhava.Good question.
In a manodvara citta vithi, the vottapana citta is the same as the manodvara citta labelled MD, just before the set of javana citta:
OK. I see the misunderstanding.
I have revised #4, #5, and #9 of the post to make it more clear.
“A saddhānusārī (or dhammānusārī) is incapable of dying (separating) from that Noble birth until he realizes the Sotāpanna stage”. This does not mean a saddhānusārī will attain the Sotāpanna stage within that lifetime. Once “born as a Noble Person” one will not die from that birth, i.e., one WILL get to the Arahant stage without ever getting a birth in the apāyās.
– One gets a “Noble birth” when attaining the Sōtapanna Anugāmi stage. One is now one of the “attha purisa puggalā“.So, basically, a Sōtapanna Anugāmi may be born many times a human until getting to the Sōtapanna stage (may even have many human bhava, each with many human jāti).
– Once getting to the Sōtapanna stage, there would be only seven maximum number of “bhava” left, within which one WILL attain the Arahant stage.I just translated the sutta in #4. It was clear to me, but I realize that it may not be clear to someone just reading the post.
– The post was already a bit long. This is why it is hard to provide a good translation of a sutta without getting into details.
– A given sutta (especially deep ones) need to be discussed in detail.Yes, Siebe. All you say are correct. That sutta is a good reference too.
If sense experiences are not pleasurable, humans will not be tempted by them. When they do immoral things to get those sense pleasures, they commit kamma that lead to rebirth in the apayas.
It is hard for a normal human to avoid such kamma WHEN sense pleasures are HIGHLY attractive, i.e., when temptations become STRONG.
– This is why a permanent change in mindset of at least a Sotapanna Anugami is needed. Such a mindset will automatically reject such bad actions at the vottapana citta (in the Abhidhamma language). So, one will not have to consciously avoid such “apayagami actions”.
– The tendency to have temptations for certain sense attractions are embedded in one’s gati. Those gati need to be reduced by doing real Anapana/Satipatthana. Then it will become easier to grasp the Tilakkhana and get to the Sotapanna stage.“When it turns out to be that recommended practices or contemplations lead to unhappiness, what to do? Does one have to continue?”
Those bhikkhus (and the translator too) misunderstood the instructions given by the Buddha.
– In any case, if a given procedure does not help, there in no point in pursuign that particular approach. There are many different techniques to choose from.“Therefor, i belief, searching happiness in life cannot really be in conflict with buddha-dhamma. Happiness and joy are necessities to practise the buddha-dhamma and make any progress. Ofcourse i understand it is a kind of happiness the sutta’s talk about (piti and sukha). We are not talking about sense-pleasures. But an unhappy mind is a serieus obstacle, at least, this is my own experience.”
That is true.
But the whole point in pursuing Buddha Dhamma is to realize the bad consequences of GETTING ATTACHED TO sense pleasures.
– But that does mean one needs to avoid sense pleasures, and live like those ascetics who endured suffering in hopes of getting rid of sense pleasures.
– That “giving up” HAS TO come through understanding: That in the end such sense pleasures only lead to suffering. That is the hard part.This is why I keep saying that one must follow the Path step-by-step:
“Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“
