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Dhamma123, Welcome to the forum!
You said: “Of course jhanas are necessary to become an ahrant. It’s in the eightfold path and it is explained so in the suttanta.”
Please explain. We just don’t make statements here. One needs to provide evidence from the Tipitaka. Where are jhanas mentioned in the Eightfold Path?
Think of it this way:
Two apple seeds are not the same. They both will yield apple trees. But one may yield a lot of fruit and another may yield less, even if planted under the same conditions (or one may wither and die early, catch a disease, etc etc).
These are very complex issues.
upekkha100 said: “What instructions did the Buddha recommend for anariyas who are following the mundane Path to cultivate the jhanas?”
None.
“If not through breathing, what was the method he approved of?”
Mundane eightfold path first and then the Noble Eightfold Path. Samadhi (and jhanas whenever possible) will come automatically. Jhansa are not necessary even for the Arahanthood:
“Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, Sīla, Samādhi”“I feel I can’t focus on a concept for that long, nor on metta.”
That could be because you may not have fulfilled enough sila or not gotten rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi:
“Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)”A final word:
I personally know people who are addicted to “jhanic pleasures”. They have stopped pursuing Dhamma any further and are stuck now.
– In fact there are people who are addicted to just a “calm state of mind” that they get when doing breath meditation, especially at retreats. So, they just keep going back to retreats to get another dose once in a while.
– I think that is a pathetic situation. Getting rid of greed, hate, and ignorance requires an effort: lead a moral life cultivating true Anapana/Satipatthana (see the Meditation section), and learn true and pure dhamma.Here is what I said in an earlier post on this topic:
When one does insight mediation, one first gets to samadhi, and eventually gets to the Arahanthood, as described in the Upanisa Sutta (SN 12.23):“..With the comprehension of suffering (i.e., the First Noble Truth via Tilakkhana) faith results; with the growth of faith, lightness of mind (pāmojjaṃ) arises; with increasing lightness of mind, joy (piti) arises; with increasing joy, lightness of the body (passaddhi) arises; with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises; with increasing bodily sukha, samādhi arises; with samādhi, yathābhūtañāṇadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they really are) arises; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, one loses attachment to worldly things (nibbidā), followed by losing cravings for sense pleasures (viragā), and liberation (vimutti), and to the destruction of all defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ)”.
Now, jhana may be attained anytime around the step, “with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises“.
– One may proceed all the way to Arahanthood without getting to jhanas.
That is from my earlier post.Ariya jhanas start with the Anagami stage (kama raga not merely suppressed but removed). So, they are unlikely to get “hooked to” jhanic pleasures. Even if they do, it will not matter much because they will not come back from the brahma realms to the lower realms.
January 15, 2019:
Just posted: “Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run“.I don’t think there is any benefit in discussing in great detail a process that happens within a billionth of a second.
Such processes are discernible only to the mind of a Buddha. It is good know that he has described the mind processes in such detail. But I don’t think what cetasika are incorporated at what stage has been discussed in Tipitaka. That would serve not much added benefit.
Nibbana is attained via getting rid of greed, hate, and ignorance from our minds. It is better to focus on that primary goal.
In order to get rid of ignorance, we DO NEED TO see some of these details (some of it to realize that the Buddha really did know these processes inside out, so that we can faith in his Dhamma). But there is a limit to such probing. There is no need to know such details as what cetasika are incorporated at what stage.
January 15, 2019:
Just posted “Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run“.“Respecting and making offerings to those with higher virtues has no merits”.
For example, bhikkhus belong to this category. They are the ones who mainly sustain the Buddha Sasana (especially in the old days, where there was no printed material available).
– Other than that bhikkhus are the symbols of Buddha Sasana. I pay respects to any bhikkhu because he represents Buddha Sasana.
– The Buddha has said, there will be a time towards the end of the Buddha Sasana, where a bhikkhu will not be wearing the yellow robe, but just having a yellow band around his wrist. He said that one would still get full benefits (merits) by making offerings to that “bhikkhu”.Another aspect is that one should also respect those who teach moral values, even outside the Buddha Sasana. They COULD BE Bodhisattvas too. As a Bodhisattva, our Buddha had taught moral values to people many, many times in his past lives.
Happy New Year to you too, Lang!
Yes. As I mentioned in one of those two posts, each quality of a Buddha can be described in many ways.
– The qualities of a Buddha cannot really described in a limited way. They are infinite. I have not seen a reference to a sutta, but Waharaka Thero has mentioned that there is a sutta that states so. And I have no doubt about that.
– The point is that each one of us starts with that set of nine described in a way we can understand (and each of us may be described differently by differently people; I have a book in Sinhala on the 24 supreme qualities of the Tiratana or Three Jewels: Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha).
– As our understanding grows, we can see that those nine are inadequate, even if we stick to just nine.
– One’s faith grows too, and that is all that matters. That mindset is important, since it allows one to comprehend deeper Dhamma. Some people disregard these chantings as “ritualistic”, but they are not, if one does that with understanding. Of course, chanting the verses like a parrot will be of no use.upekkha100 said: ” So at the early stage of a citta, is the cetana cetasika neutral too like phassa/sanna/vedana/and the rest of the universal cetasika?”
The cetana cetasika is ALWAYS neutral. It just combines the universal cetasika with a set of sobhana or asobhana cetasika that arises due to one’s gati.
– When the Buddha said, “cetanaham Bhikkhave kammam vadami“, he meant when the cetana cetasika combined a set of cetasika, the mind will then act accordingly (moral or immoral kamma could be done).upekkha100 said:” at the very early initial stage, is it correct to say that cetana does not incorporate any of the kamma generating cetasikas(neither asobhana cetasika nor sobhana cetasika)?”
Yes. At the citta stage, cetana has only combined the 7 universal cetasika.
The 9 stages are discussed in a simple way at: “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Stages of a Thought“.
Tobias said: ” How can the gatis of the parents get matched in that case? Where is the “mind-component” stored all this time?”
Those gatis were frozen in the sperm and the egg, just like the “properties of a plant to be arisen” are encoded in a seed. Of course, the gati would be mainly those that the mother and father had at that time.
However, the gati of the mother and father at the current time may have an effect too, especially if they are very different. Everything in this world is inter-connected in a subtle way:”Quantum Entanglement – We Are All Connected“.
y not said: ” It is of more concern what the state of a frozen EMBRYO is , that is, once the gandhabba has entered. Will the ‘mind-component’, as you have it, that is, the gandhabba ,frozen for all that time?”
Gandhabba would enter the zygote created by the union of the egg and sperm after the egg and sperm are unfrozen and combined. I think they are kept frozen separately. I am not sure.
– If they are combined before freezing, but right after combining, there may or may not have enough time for the gandhabba to “take possession” of the zygote created.
– If there is indeed a “frozen gandhabba”, it could come out or stay frozen. But that is getting into speculation.“So how can an Arahant have vinnana?”
I can explain this only so many times. I have said so many times that an Arahant has “undefiled vinnana”. If you try to be a lawyer and not willing to understand Dhamma, there is not much I can do.
When the Buddha said, “I was born such and such a person” long time ago, he did not literally mean that. There is no “I” going from one birth to another. It is just continuing “lifestream” filled with suffering, that will end upon Parinibbana.
Somethings need to be just understood. There is simply no assigned special name for the vinnana of an Arahant. Those who understand what is meant by vinnana KNOW that vinnana of an Arahant is undefiled.
I will have no more comments on this issue.
I doubt whether kama guna have anything to do with citta types.
Kama guna are associated with bhava. For example, humans have a distaste for feces, but pigs enjoy it. Cows like grass but lions would not, etc.
upekkha said: “Recalling past memories: is that not done with the manasikara cetasika? Manasikara cetasika is part of the 7 universal cetasika that make up a pure citta before it degrades to vinnana..”
It is true that the manasikara cetasika “takes memories into account” during the arising of a citta. But those memories come from one’s five aggregates (rupakkhandha,….vinnanakkhandha).
Therefore, all five aggregates, including the vinnanakkhandha, remain with an Arahant. There is no special name assigned to the vinnanakkhandha of an Arahant.
– It is understood that the vinnana of an Arahant is pure or undefiled.
– To say it differently, there is no upadana (or cravings) for any of the five aggregates for an Arahant. Pancakkhandha is there, but no pancaupadanakkhandha.Tobias: You are right in the sense that one needs to go beyond mere “amoha” to have a tihetuka patisandhi. One needs to go to Abhidhamma to clarify this point.
I have not done a post on the eight types of kusala citta (I have done one on the 12 types of akusala citta in the Abhidhamma section).
In order to have a tihetuka patisandhi, one needs to do a kusala kamma with the first four types of kusala citta, which are “nanasampayutta” or “with knowledge”. Here with knowledge means “with the understanding that good kamma are bound to have good vipaka”.
This is discussed Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” starting at p. 46.
– Similar explanation is likely to be in the pdf of Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.Obviously, an understanding of Tilakkhana is not necessary here to be “nanasampayutta”.
– One first gets a tihetuka patisandhi by doing a kusala kamma with that “basic understanding”. Then once born with that tihetuka birth, one would be able to comprehend Tilakkhana.Yes. aparapariyavedaniya basically means to be experienced in future lives. But it does not mean “forever”.
firewrns is right. Upon the death of an Arahant, he/she is not born in this world of 31 realms. He/she merges with Nibbana. Qualities of Nibbana cannot be explained in terms of our vocabulary because IT DOES NOT belong to this world. But it is a permanent state without any suffering.
Suffering is present in each and every realm in this world, but it is hard for normal humans to understand. That is why the Path has to be followed step-by-step without getting hang up in definitions. Just try to understand concepts at ones’ own level. I have no idea what level of understanding each person is at.
Here is the step-by-step process:
One needs to get rid of the 10 types miccha ditthi first. Then one needs to start comprehending Tilakkhana, and when one starts seeing “the futilty of existence in any realm” one attains the Sotapanna stage. Only after that one can see overcome the desries for sense pleasures and get to the Sakadagami/Anagami stages. Only at that time, one can fully comprehend that even those higher realms are filled with suffering.I suggest carefully reading the following two posts:
“Nibbāna – Is it Difficult to Understand?” (Especially see #7)
Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?
More posts on Nibbana at:
“Nibbana“I received an email about amoha and panna requesting further clarification.
Amoha means “without moha”, and moha is a mind that is covered for one with 10 types of miccha ditthi; see, “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā“.
So, there is a huge difference between amoha and panna. Panna requires comprehension of Tilakkhana.
