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Please use a free word-processing program like Word or Google Docs to submit a lengthy comment like this one.
- I started correcting a few things, but I did not want to inadvertently change your meanings, so I stopped. In the future, please take the time to prepare a lengthy comment using a word processor. That will help me and others understand the questions and reply correctly.
I will read the comment and reply later. I hope others will comment in the meantime.
Thank you! Much merits!
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I think you meant to ask, ” Does this mean that one does not need to be listening to a discourse by a Noble Person (an Ariya) to attain the Sotapanna phala moment?“
- Yes. There is no need to be listening to an Ariya to attain the Sotapanna phala moment.
- The requirement is to learn from an Ariya and understand the “previously unknown teachings of a Buddha.”
- When that happens, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami, who is either a dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī.
- A dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī WILL attain the Sotapanna phala moment during that life. That can happen any time, anywhere, while contemplating what they have superficially understood.
- That is what happened to Ven. Cittahattha. He had learned from Ariyas while a bhikkhu and had attained the Sotapanna Anugami stage before he had disrobed for the last time. Then, he attained Sotapanna phala while returning to the monastery to become a bhikkhu for the final time.
I had not made that clear in the following post: “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās.” See #4 and #5 there, which I just revised to make this point clear.
- I think Gad commented on Ven. Cittahattha in another thread. I don’t remember which forum thread it was. The above was discussed there, but I had forgotten to update the above post.
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Of course. Even a Sotapanna may follow rituals they are used to unless it involves immoral deeds. It is likely that some practices did not make sense but were not immoral.
- I don’t know the details of what types of procedures were involved.
- But I think the sutta explains how to engage in Uposata correctly.
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Yes. I think it is important to have a separate post on it. I will try to make it the next post.
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“Uposata” is to dedicate a day once a week or once a month (usually a full Moon day) to try to live like an Arahant, i.e., to abstain from immoral deeds or even engage in “sensual/pleasurable activities,” including sex.
- This is a common practice in Asian Buddhist countries. People spend the whole day in a temple, although it can also be done at home.
Such a practice existed even before Prince Siddhartha attained Buddhahood. It is stated that Queen Mahamaya Devi (Prince Siddhartha’s mother) regularly practiced it.
- It is clear that such a practice originated with Buddha Kassapa, the Buddha before Buddha Gotama.
- Just like concepts like kamma/kamma vipaka also propagated with mundane meanings, that practice was performed with different variations/adoptions by various groups when Prince Siddhartha was born. For example, “nigaṇṭhuposatho” was the practice/rituals adopted by the Jains (followers of Nigaṇṭanathaputta) at that time.
- Apparently, Lady Visākhā followed an incorrect version, and the Buddha explained to her the correct way to practice Uposata in this sutta.
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The sutta doesn’t say not to teach Dhamma; it just says to avoid useless debates.
The English translation is good. There are no “deep concepts” here, and it is straightforward.
“Bhikkhus, don’t get into arguments, such as:
“You don’t understand this teaching and training. I understand this teaching and training. What, you understand this teaching and training? You’re practicing wrong. I’m practicing right. I stay on topic, you don’t. You said last what you should have said first. You said first what you should have said last. What you’ve thought so much about has been disproved. Your doctrine is refuted. Go on, save your doctrine! You’re trapped; get yourself out of this—if you can!”
- Those types of “debates” are the ones to avoid.
- Just saying, “Your argument is wrong. Mine is correct,” etc., is not beneficial. You only need to present your arguments with evidence from the Tipitaka. There is no need to engage in debates.
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Taryal: “Or could it be that the Buddha was referring to visible expansions of the nearest stars?”
- Yes. It is possible that the Buddha was referring to visible expansions of a nearest star that eventually “blew up” as a supernova.
- The Sun’s mass is too small to become a supernova, but it can become a “red giant,” according to modern science.
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Taryal: “It is interesting because there is a Hindu text which also refers to the seven suns…”
- Many concepts in Vedic literature, including karma (for kamma) got into the Vedas from Buddha Kassapa, who was on Earth before Buddha Gotama. I briefly discussed that in #15 and #16 in “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“ which I will quote below.
“15. In the Vepullapabbatta Sutta (SN 15.20), the Buddha provides the names of the three Buddhas on this Earth (in this mahā kappa) before him: Kakusandha, Koṇāgama, and Kassapa. He describes how a particular mountain had three different names and heights during those Buddha’s times.
- The point here is that those Buddhas had been on this Earth at times far apart from each other. Considering that the age of the Earth is about 4.5 billion years, it is reasonable to assume that they were about a billion years apart.
- One piece of evidence in the Tipiṭaka for material from previous Buddhas transmitted via Vedic teachings (with superficial meanings) is given in the post, “Arōgyā Paramā Lābhā..” (see #8 there).
16. By the way, the existence of Buddha Kassapa before the Buddha Gōtama helps explain many questions about the connection between Vedic terms and Buddhist terms. Some examples are kamma (karma), Bhikkhu (Bhikshu), paññā (pragnā), jhāna (dhyāna), Nibbāna (Nirvāna), and so on.
- After the end of the Kassapa Buddha Sāsana, his teachings were transmitted as Vedic teachings without deeper meanings. I will need to write some posts just on this issue.
- A good example is the Ānāpāna bhāvanā, which got transmitted as “breath meditation.”
- After re-gaining Buddha Kassapa’s interpretation during our Buddha’s time, the Vedic description has been retaken hold by the current time. The correct version will be fully restored in the coming years. But, of course, it will again disappear to be rediscovered by the Maitreya Buddha in the future.”
On that, also see #8 of “Arogya Parama Labha..” which I quote below:
8. It is interesting to note that this verse was a popular one among the Vedic brahmins of the day of the Buddha. In the Māgandhiya Sutta (MN 75), it is described how Māgandhiya brahmin tells the Buddha that his teacher also taught him the same verse. When the Buddha asked him to explain the meaning that his teacher taught him, Māgandhiya gave the same interpretation that was given in #1 above.
- The Buddha told Māgandhiya that this gāthā (verse) came to the Vedic literature from the previous Buddha (Buddha Kassapa), whose Buddha Sāsana had since disappeared: “Pubbakehesā, māgaṇḍiya, arahantehi sammāsambuddhehi gāthā bhāsitā.“
- (It is important to note that there had been three Buddhas before Buddha Gotama in this mahā kappa, and there will be another, Maithree Buddha, in the future after the present Buddha Sāsana disappears in about 2500 years).
- This is why only “conventional meanings” of pure Dhamma survive when Ariyā (Noble Persons) can correctly interpret the deep meanings in the suttā and verses like this are absent for a long time in this world. Either a Noble Person or a Buddha has to be born to bring back the true meanings.
- This is exactly what has happened during the past hundreds of years, where true meanings of many keywords like anicca, dukkha, anatta, Paṭicca Samuppāda, and Ānāpānasati bhāvanā, have been not known. See, “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – Wrong Interpretations“.
I have pointed out more evidence in other posts. The following is from #7 of “Buddhahood Controversies – Introduction.”
“For example, “Brahmāyu Sutta (MN 91)” provides a detailed account of brahmin Brahmāyu, who was well-versed in the three Vedā (tiṇṇaṃ vedānaṃ pāragū). At the beginning of the sutta, brahmin Brahmāyu recites the qualities of a Buddha: ‘itipi so bhagavā arahaṃ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavā’ti. Then he sends his pupil to the Gotama Buddha to check whether he has the “thirty-two marks of a great man (dvattiṃsamahāpurisalakkhaṇāni).” How would brahmin Brahmāyu know about the qualities of a Buddha? It had come down in Vedic teachings! It is good to read the English translation: “With Brahmāyu.”
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1. In other suttas, it is explained that 10,000 world systems (or “star systems” like our Solar system) will be destroyed together with the Solar system. The Pali word for such a “star system” is “cakkavāla.”
2. Such a destruction of a cluster of “star systems” is called a supernova in modern science.
3. Since people were unaware of such details then, the Buddha probably provided that analogy with the appearance of “seven Suns.”
- The point is that either the Sun or one of the 10,000 stars will blow up when our “star cluster” is destroyed in a supernova event in the future.
- The Buddha likely used an analogy of the appearance of seven Suns (one by one) to describe the temperature increase that eventually will lead to the destruction of the 10,000 world systems.
4. This feature of the Buddha’s model has been PROVEN by science. The destruction of a whole cluster of stars (together with their planetary systems) does happen in the universe. Such an event is a supernova. There are a few such supernovae in our Milky Way galaxy each year.
- The “re-formation” of star systems has also been confirmed.
- The periodic destruction and re-formation of Earth are discussed in the “Aggañña Sutta (DN 27),” and I have provided a summary in the post “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).“
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Grasping of a new existence (bhava) is explained in the following post:
“Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava.”
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Yes. That principle holds for all magga phala, not only for Sotapannas.
- The ultimate example is an Arahant, who will not be subject to any vipaka after the death of the physical body.
- As an example, Angulimala killed almost a thousand people but did not have to “pay for it” by being reborn in an apaya because he attained Arahanthood.
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Yes. The “phantom limb” is a manifestation of gandhabba, the “mental body.”
- The following is another of many videos on YouTube on “phantom limb.”
“Can you still feel a limb that’s gone?“
- As this video says, “We are born with a full map of the physical body.” That blueprint is gandhabba.
- But there is no “map in the brain,” as the video says. The hadaya vatthu (“seat of the mind”) in the gandhabba is where our thoughts arise.
V. S. Ramachandran, a neurologist, has written a book titled “Phantoms in the Brain: Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind.” He has also conducted extensive studies in this area of research. The following is a video of an interview with him:
“V.S. Ramachandran – Does Brain Make Mind?“
P.S. The experience of an amputee:
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The “Gihi Sutta (AN 5.179)” does not say that a Sotappanna cannot break the five precepts.
1. I have linked to the marker @2.1: “Katamesu pañcasu sikkhāpadesu saṁvutakammanto hoti?” It is CORRECTLY translated into English as “And what are the five precepts in which their actions are restrained?”
- Thus, a Sotapanna is only restrained (i.e., their actions are automatically controlled) not to engage in an apayagami kamma.
2. The verse @2.2: “Idha, sāriputta, ariyasāvako pāṇātipātā paṭivirato hoti, adinnādānā paṭivirato hoti, kāmesumicchācārā paṭivirato hoti, musāvādā paṭivirato hoti, surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā paṭivirato hoti” is INCOREECTLY translated as “It’s when a noble disciple doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, commit sexual misconduct, lie, or use alcoholic drinks that cause negligence.”
- There, “pāṇātipātā paṭivirato” does not mean “doesn’t kill living creatures.”
- For example, it is quite possible for a Sotapanna to kill an animal if that becomes necessary, for example, to save a life of a human. However, they would not do that with any liking; that is what paṭivirato means, i.e., they may be forced to kill an animal but not for the sake of killing.
3. It is only an Arahant who is incapable of taking any life.
- The same applies to all five precepts. Only an Arahant can abstain from the precepts in an absolute way, without exception.
Be careful when reading English translations of suttas. I have provided numerous examples.
P.S. “saṁvutakammanto” ( saṁvuta kammanto) means “restrained actions.” The word “saṁvuta” is realetd to “saṁvara” or “restraint.” See “Saṁvara Sutta (AN 4.14).”
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Yes.
- Here, “nama” refers to the “impression of an external rupa” that one likes/dislikes. That is what the mind is focused on at that moment.
- “Namarupa” is the “rupa” created by the mind with that kamma vinnana per that impression. Essentially, that is the kammic energy generated to give rise to such a namarupa in the future.
- The more one does mano, vaci, and kaya (abhi)sankhara (with avijja), the stronger kammic energy becomes.
- That happens because the mind craves (or despises) such a namarupa. This is based on “distorted sanna,” which gives the impression that some things are valuable and can bring happiness: “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā)“
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I slightly revised it as follows:
9. Based on ANY sensory input and the uppatti bhavaṅga, a mind will start at a particular DEFILED STATE (with mano saṅkhāra) unless one is an Arahant. Even if an average human may not strongly attach to a sense input, “distorted saññā” is automatically generated; the reason is not realizing the anicca nature, but we will discuss that later.
The point is the following. Following is #1 in that post.
1. The Buddha described this difference in the “Sanidāna Sutta (SN 14.12)“: “Kāmadhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaññā, kāmasaññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaṅkappo, kāmasaṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando, kāmacchandaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmapariḷāho, kāmapariḷāhaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmapariyesanā.” OR “Attachment to kāma dhātu leads to kāma saññā, attachment to kāma saññā leads to kāma saṅkappa, attachment to kāma saṅkappa leads to kāmacchanda..and so on to kāma pariyesanā.“
- The first step, “Kāmadhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaññā” happens to all, including Arahants.
- The second step, “kāmasaññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaṅkappo,” DOES NOT happen to an Arahant or Anagami (who have eliminated kama raga).
- The subsequent step, ” kāmasaṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando” happens ONLY IF one gets strongly attached to the arammana. That leads to “tanha paccaya upadana” step in PS. That is when the “pancupadanakkhandha” starts. Thus, not all arammana lead to pancupadanakkhandha even for a puthujjana.
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