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sumbodhi asked: “Regarding the experiments – since phenomena are conditioned does that mean that we actually create the conditions for the results to manifest rather than ‘magically’ make them happen?”
“Magic” implies things can happen without causes and conditions. For anything to happen there must be CAUSES and CONDITIONS.
– For example, for a tree to come to exist there must be a seed AND there must be suitable conditions (like good soil, water, and sunlight) for the seed to germinate and grow.sumbodhi asked: “I read the mind actually creates suddhātthakā in minute quantities, but do they pop into existence just like that and not as a result of conditions? Would our mind be the direct ‘condition’ then? Would the results in the experiments be related to the experimenter’s creating suddhātthakā?”
Yes. Our minds do create suddhātthakā in minute quantities.
– There are always six root causes: lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha.
– The conditions are per Paticca Samuppada. That is why Paticca Samuppada is sometimes translated as “Conditional Arising.”
– However, there is no simple explanation.That is why I started the “Origin of Life” series. It will also address your other question under the other topic of consciousness and matter.
– Both questions involve getting to the heart of the Buddha Dhamma.
– It may take some time to go through the required steps. But both those questions will be answered at the end.This hypothesis says that the mind arises out of matter. It is captured clearly in the following paragraph from the article:
“This means that mind is matter, and that even elementary particles exhibit incredibly basic forms of consciousness. Before you write that off, consider this. Consciousness can vary in complexity. We have good reason to think that the conscious experiences of a horse are much less complex than those of a human being, and that the conscious experiences of a rabbit are less sophisticated than those of a horse. As organisms become simpler, there may be a point where consciousness suddenly switches off – but it’s also possible that it just fades but never disappears completely, meaning even an electron has a tiny element of consciousness.”
That is complete nonsense.
Matter can NEVER give rise to consciousness. The matter is inert. How can joy and sadness arise in the matter?
– Consciousness in an electron? How do these people come up with such crazy ideas?This is also why it will NEVER be possible to make a “conscious robot” or any type of artificial intelligence.
– Any machine, no matter how sophisticated, is nothing more than a fancy computer. A computer is as good as its parts and the human designer who programmed it.If anyone can refute those facts, I would be interested in discussing further.
1 user thanked author for this post.
I do not get into discussing other people’s mindsets. That is because of the limited power of words.
– When someone tries to explain their experience, it may be hard to put into words.
– Then the one who is listening may not get the same idea. The worst is, when that second person tries to give his/her opinion, that has the same problem of expressing their own thoughts.I will think about this a little bit more, Christian. But my inclination is that it is not fruitful to “analyze” someone else’s reporting of their experiences. Of course, we can point out major issues.
– For example, we know how to differentiate an Ariya jhana from an anariya jhana, as I discussed above. But it is only that person who would really know which one it is. There is no point in either denying or confirming their statements. It does not serve any real purpose.When I started the website, I used to discuss a few of my experiences. Then I realized that it may not be a good idea.
– Rather, I try to point out examples from the Tipitaka. That way, I don’t need to get involved.
– What is really important is to discuss the concepts, not so much one’s own experience. Of course, it is fine to report one’s progress, if one thinks that it will be beneficial in motivating others. But that should be done with restraint.That is a good question, sumbodhi.
Such effects require at least a “focused mind.” The more concentrated or focused the mind is, it gets easier for such phenomena to materialize.
This is why faith or saddha (a genuine belief) in whatever one is thinking about matters.
The person who reported this experiment is likely to have had a real determination to see the effect. Therefore, his/her javana power would be intense.
– On the other hand, one who does not believe in such an effect may conduct the same experiment, and his/her GOAL is to show that it is a foolish idea. So, they do not “put a real effort” into their thoughts while doing the experiment.We can confirm this by thinking about our own experiences. Think about two different cases. In one, we really want to get something done. In the other, we just want to get something done because a parent is asking to do it and we had no choice.
– In the first case, we are enthusiastic and our minds work at “full potential.” In the latter, we just “go through the motions” without any real effort.Of course, someone who can get into jhana samapatti (Ariya or anariya) would have “more javana power” in their thoughts (citta). In a jhana samapatti, citta with the “same focus” or “arammana” can flow uninterrupted. Thus the “intention” is fully focused.
– That is why such yogis can even do “supernormal” things, like making a flower with their mind power.
– An analogy, in this case, is comparing an oil lamp to a laser beam. An oil lamp just put out a little light. In a laser beam, light energy concentrated. It can cut a metal sheet. The mind power of an average person (even when focused) is like that of the oil lamp. That of one in a jhana samapatti is like a laser beam.“After many of such occurrences, I feel like I’m receiving too much from whatever force there might be, so I ask them to just let me do my own practice. Then from that day, surely enough those convenient coincidences have stopped.”
I think you made the right decision, Tien.
I am not sure whether you really saw devas or not. But there are “well-intentioned beings” who do help out those who live moral lives. We don’t need to ask for their help.
There is a deeper aspect to this. As I have discussed in many posts, people with similar “gati” (character/habits) tend to associate with each other. That holds for all living beings.
The down-side of this is that there are beings out there (below the deva level) who have “bad gati” and they tend to try to influence those people with similar bad gati.
– Such bad beings also tend to be attracted to physically dirty environments too. That is why we need to keep living spaces clean.
– I discussed a little bit about that in, “What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?.”
– A basic discussion on gati at, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas).”2 users thanked author for this post.
y not: “But if a person hates someone, it is not because he loves somebody else.”
If you trace back to the root cause of why one hates another, you will be able to see that it was greed and/or avijja. Hate does not arise by itself. All attachments arise due to the wrong views and wrong perceptions that things in this world lead to happiness. But it is, of course, not easy to “see”.
Siebe: “In that sense i think craving is not bad as cause. Craving as in delight seeking.”
Yes. That is because of what I mentioned above too.
– The Buddha said, “My Dhamma is hard to “see”. It takes a real effort.One way is to comprehend Paticca Samuppada. “Tanha paccaya upadana” ends up in “jati paccaya jara, marana, soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa..” or the “whole mass of suffering.”
Good point, Siebe.
The confusion arises because of the wrong translation of taṇhā as “craving.”
In SN 56.11, the Pali verse is: “Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ—yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ
—kāma taṇhā, bhava taṇhā, vibhava taṇhā.As you point out, the translation you quote is “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering:
it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination. SN56.11″As I have pointed out in recent posts, taṇhā is “getting attached” to something. One could get attached via anger too. One gets attached via greed (craving) or anger because of the ignorance of the Noble Truths. The first stage of understanding those truths is to get rid of sakkāya ditthi.
P.S. Yes. I am glad to see that Johnny has the right idea. I will write more about it in the next post.
OK, Christian.
The “very advanced testimonial” that you posted is interesting. I have seen many similar accounts. But the problem is, those experiences do not say anything about Nibbana. They are jhanic experiences.
Now if they are Ariya jhanas, then it has to do with Nibbana.
– It is very easy to determine (for oneself) whether they are Ariya jhanas. If one does not generate ANY kama raga (say even while watching an X-rated movie), then those are likely to be Ariya jhana.Even the first Ariya jhana REQUIRES ELIMINATION (not just suppression) of kama raga.
If you can post a video of someone saying that they have such jhanic experiences AND also do not have have any kama raga left, please do so. (But again, there are people who have declared themselves to be Arahants. So, I am not sure whether we can take anyone’s word. This is why declaring these accomplishments do not serve benefits to others.)
– Other than Ariya jhana, it is not a big deal to get into a jhana, even the arupa jhana (for those who had cultivated jhana in recent previous lives).
– However, I am not saying that getting to jhana is bad. I am just saying that getting to jhana is more like a habit from previous lives. It is easy for those who had cultivated jhanas in recent previous lives, to get into jhana.
– It is like someone who learned to ride a bike as a child. Even if that child did not get to ride a bike for many years, he could easily remember how to ride it later on as an adult. But it would be hard for an adult to learn to ride a bike if he had never ridden one.This is why I believe putting emphasis on jhanas is a bad idea. There could be people who even get to magga phala but cannot cultivate jhana. They could be discouraged because they may be under the impression that it is essential to cultivate jhana to attain magga phala.
We need to remember that Devadatta attained all those jhanas, and was also able to perform “miracles”, like appearing on the lap of Prince Ajasattu in the form of a baby (or a snake?.) But he ended up in the apayas.
I have explained this in many posts. The bottom line is that jhanas and magga phala are two different things. We should not confuse jhanic experiences having anything to do with magga phala.
– Furthermore, the Buddha himself practiced the highest jhana soon after he gave up the “householder life.” It took him six years to get to the Buddhahood.Good question.
Yes. Tanha (getting attached to an arammanna) happens instantaneously. That is what is discussed in the first half of the Chacakka Sutta.
One starts thinking about that arammana only after that in the “tanha paccaya upadana” step in Paticca Samuppada.
– Once one is attached, one starts thinking about it and those are vaci sankhara. The one may do bodily actions with kaya sankhara too. That is “avijja paccaya sankhara”, which then leads to ALL the remaining steps in Paticca Samuppada. That ends up in “jati paccaya jara, marana, etc..” or the “whole mass of suffering”.
– Therefore, “tanha paccaya upadana” is really the INITIATION of the Paticca Samuppada process.I will discuss that in detail in the next post.
Christian wrote: “I can not explain how Nibbana can be just Nibbana without consciousness etc. but this is how it is.”
What needs to be explained is how to get to Nibbana.
By the way, one cannot experience ultimate Nibbana (the status after Parinibbana) without getting to Nirodha Samapatti. Are you saying that you can get to Nirodha Samapatti?
Nibbana itself is very easy to DEFINE.
It is in many many suttas: “rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo— idaṃ vuccati nibbānan”ti.
– Removing greed, anger, and ignorance (about the Four Noble Truths) will get one to Nibbana.In order to get there, one needs to realize that there no real “experiencer.”
1. Things happen due to past causes. Life is a series of events. One has control over SOME kamma vipaka, by paying attention and by avoiding conditions for them to appear. But some kamma vipaka cannot be avoided (strong ones) UNTIL one attains Parinibbana.
– When one has sakkāya diṭṭhi, one keeps accumulating causes (hetu or kamma bija) for future existences. Under highly-tempting conditions, one may even do apāyagāmi deeds. That possibility WILL BE there UNTIL one gets rid of sakkāya diṭṭhi.P.S. When quoting others, please say who said what.
P.P.S. To add to #1 above:
2. Taking control over those CONDITIONS is the key to stop making NEW CAUSES for future suffering. That is what is discussed in the Paticca Samuppada.
– Once the main result has arisen (like our present human body), it HAS TO run its course.
– But we can STOP such future existence from arising by comprehending Paticca Samuppada.
– This is why Paticca Samuppada is sometimes translated as “Conditional Arising” or “Dependent Origination.” Results can be STOPPED from appearing by either removing causes OR conditions. Thus even if kamma bija are there, they can be PREVENTED from “germinating” by removing the conditions for them to appear. For future existences, that is done by stopping the “tanha paccaya upadana” step.
– That cannot be done by sheer will-power. It comes through Samma Diṭṭhi, the correct world view (anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.)
– That is what we will be discussing in the upcoming posts.Cristian wrote: “f you ask me, this forum topic has come to appear more like a Mahāyāna inquiry into emptiness, nothingness, sunnyata: no experiencer? The same old questions about Nibbana come up. Who is it, apart from the pancakkhandhas, that experiences? The manomayakaya shorn of all that is positive and negative, with only what is neutral remaining”
Are you quoting someone else or are you saying that?
Yes. That is correct, Siebe.
Regarding the first part, the following explanation by Ven. Nagasena (to King Milinda) gives the idea too.
“The chariot simile” from Sutta Central.I only recently found that Sutta Central has the full English translation of “Milinda Panha”
– King Milinda was a Greek King who ruled part of India about 200 years after the Buddha. He was a Buddhist. He had frequent conversations with an Arahant, Ven. Nagasena. This Milinda Panha (Questions of Milinda) captures those questions by Milinda and answers by Ven. Nagasena.Of course, some Pali words are translated incorrectly. But one can get a good idea.
I have done some significant revisions to the post in question: “An Apparent “Self” Is Involved in Kamma Generation.”
Those interested should re-read the revised post.
One major change was to add #5 under a new heading, as follows:
Attā Translated as “Self” Is Not Correct
5. The Pāli word “attā” does not really mean “self” even though I used that translation above. That translation is quite common these days. We will go with that until we finish discussing Paticca Samuppāda. If I try to discuss the real meaning of attā right now, that could lead to confusion.
That is in fact why the Buddha refused to answer Vaccagotta’s question about whether or not there is an “attā.” See, “Ānanda Sutta (SN 44.10).”
Vacchagotta comes to the Buddha asked “kiṃ nu kho, bho gotama, atthattā” ti?” OR “Master Gotama, is it correct to say that there is an “attā”?”.
Note that “atthattā” is “atthi attā” where “atthi” means “exists.” Vaccagotta meant in this case “attā” to be “self.” Thus, Vacchagotta meant: “Is it correct to say that a “self” exists?”
The Buddha remained silent, and Vacchagotta asked the question again in the negative form. The second time, he asked: “Kiṃ pana, bho gotama, natthattā” ti?” or, “Master Gotama, is it not correct to say that there is a “self”?”.
– Seeing that the Buddha is refusing to answer his question, Vacchagotta got up and left.Note that “natthattā” is made up of three words: “naatthi attā,” which negates “atthattā.”Just as these days, many people were confused about the Pali word “attā” and the Sanskrit word “ātma.” The latter meaning is closer to a “soul.”
I will discuss this sutta when I will come back to discuss “attā” in detail, after discussing Paticca Samuppāda.
Those two posts that I referred to above are very important. I hope everyone will take the time to read them carefully.
The first post explains that tanha is not craving: “Tanhā – How We Attach Via Greed, Hate, and Ignorance.”
It is a common mistake to translate “tanhā” as “craving.” The translation that Johnny referred to translates tanhā as craving.
– Tanhā means “getting attached to” sensory input and that happens within a FRACTION OF A SECOND.
– That is a key message of the Chachakka Sutta that we have been discussing recently: “Worldview of the Buddha.”I have revised the second post mentioned above:
“Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna”These are important concepts to understand. But it requires spending time to think, not merely to read.
P.S. The key point is that “tanhā” happens instantly, the moment you see, hear,..something. Then one thinks, speaks, and takes actions based on “craving” for it. That second step happens over time. That is the “upādāna” step.
