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Hello Alvino,
What you initially stated is true. One cannot possibly attain the Arahantohhod in just one lifetime.
– However, the rebirth process is so long that each and every living being existing now MUST have started on following Buddha Dhamma long ago.
– The Buddha said each living being’s existence can be traced backward for many, many eons, and he could not see a “beginning.” It extends to an infinite amount of time back.
– See, “Sansaric Time Scale, Buddhist Cosmology, and the Big Bang Theory”Therefore, the following in your statement is NOT correct: “If the above underlined statement is true, then Angulimala must have started on the path long ago before this lifetime, so that he at least are in Sotapanna stage when born as Angulimala.”
Angulimala most definitely followed the Path in previous lives.
– However, if he had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life, he would not be capable of killing 999 people.The important thing to realize is that we all must have done both good and bad deeds in previous lives.
– We are born now due to the results of a good kamma.
– One COULD be born in an apaya when a bad kamma re-surfaces unless one attains at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– That is what is meant by “one is not released from the apayas until one attains at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage.Upekkha wrote: “Before I had thought “sabbe sankhara dukkha” was a very deep verse with many implications, including bad kamma vipaka, rebirth process and the apayas. But now it seems it just means the effort/striving needed for thinking a thought is suffering.”
It seems that the “big picture” got lost while discussing finer aspects.
Here is the “Big Picture.”
1. There are two ways that sankhara are associated with suffering.
– ONE: Most sufferings arise LATER. One cultivates sankhara over a period of time and thus cultivate “patisandhi vinnana” for future rebirths.
– TWO: There is also suffering associated in real-time, as one is generating sankhara. Those can be both “mental stress” and associated physical work (effort involved in speaking and doing things). Even when an Arahant does sankhara (not abhisankhara) to engage in daily activities, they are suffering (i.e., some effort is associated with ANY activity). It seems that Upekkha has been mostly focused on this type.Now, let us focus on the sufferings that arise later, which are the most important.
2. Of the sufferings that arise later, worse sufferings are associated with “apunnabhisankhara” associated with immoral deeds (dasa akusala.) Patisandhi vinnana for such “bad rebirths” are generated via akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS). Here, “avijja paccaya sankhara” specifically refers to “apunnabhisankhara“.
3. Even “good rebirth” in higher realms result due to punnabhisankhara result from akusala-mula PS process. Here “avijja paccaya sankhara” refers to punnabhisankhara done WITHOUT the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
– However, one MUST DO punnabhisankhara. One MUST AVOID apunnabhisankhara, in order to avoid rebirths in the apayas. That way, one will at least be born in good realms so that one can continue on the Path.4. However, there will be no end to the rebirth process UNTIL one starts doing punnabhisankhara WITH the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
– In this case, one’s actions that are done with the comprehension of Tilakkhana will fall under the “kusala-mula PS” process.
– That is what leads to various stages of magga phala and eventually to the Arahanthood.
– It is to be noted that one at lower stages of magga phala will be doing some akusala-mula PS processes and some others with the kusala-mula PS process.
– When one reaches the Arahanthood, one’s actions will be just actions (without kammic consequences) because those actions WILL NOT fall under either PS process. These are still called sankhara (but not abhisankhara). Since they do not have kammic consequences, they are called “punna kriya” (an Arahant would not do immoral deeds). Those sankhara are still “mildly stressful” and that is why “sabbe sankhara dukkha.” All sufferings end with the death of an Arahant (i.e., Parinibbana.)I have discussed all this in previous replies above. But I did not realize that Upekkha was focused on just the “real-time suffering” due to sankhara.
– Hopefully, this “big picture” will help.Per Upekkha’s statement above, “Before I had thought “sabbe sankhara dukkha” was a very deep verse with many implications, including bad kamma vipaka, rebirth process and the apayas…”
Hopefully, it is clear why “sabbe sankhara dukkha” IS a very deep verse with many implications, including bad kamma vipaka, rebirth process, and the apayas.
– The only thing that may not be clear could be that the sankhara generated by an Arahant would also be “mildly stressful”. There will be “an effort” associated with any kind of activity. Furthermore, an Arahant is also subjected to kamma vipaka and thus may suffer via old age, diseases, etc. All suffering ends only at Parinibbana.The sutta that Chaminda referring to is “Cūḷasaccaka Sutta (MN 35)”. It was Brahmin Saccaka (not a Brahma) who argued with the Buddha on whether a “self” (with full control) exists.
There is a reply from Chaminda (author of the video) to Sybe’s original question, under Sybe’s question.
– I thought to mention that in case someone did not see that.Upekkha wrote: ” It was only a reaction, the Arahant did not even do anything for the handicap person.”
Why wouldn’t the Arahant do anything? He/she would help out that person.
As I previously explained, that would only be a kriya without any kammic consequences.
Anyway, I do not think it would be beneficial to anyone at this forum to try to explain “sabbe sankhara dukkha” etc beyond what I have discussed.
Upekkha asked:” 1) If sobhana cetasika cools down the mind, then can punnabhisankhara be considered as stressful?”
No. Punnabhisankhara are not stressful. They help reduce stress, as I mentioned.
– The suffering associated with kaya sankhara involve “bodily work.”
– It is that “physical work” that makes even punna kamma stressful.For example, when you help an elderly person to cross the street, that takes some effort. Of course, sobhana cetasika that arise in the mind makes that less stressful.
The key point is that “sabbe sankhara anicca”, “sabbe sankhara dukkha” etc can be clearly seen as one proceeds to higher levels on the Path.
First one needs to realize the dangers of APUNNA ABHI SANKHARA and the need to engage in PUNNA ABHI SANKHARA.
– Then, as one starts to comprehend Tilakkhana, SOME of those APUNNA ABHI SANKHARA will automatically become KUSALA KAMMA.
– At that stage, one would be able to start seeing the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of ALL SANKHARA.I think it is good to try to clarify the following in a bit more detail.
Upekkha wrote: “Sabbe sankhara dukkha=all sankhara ARE suffering.
So does that mean bad kamma vipaka and rebirths in the apayas is NOT implied in the verse “all sankhara are suffering” then?”Yes. I clearly stated in previous replies that all sankhara are suffering.
This suffering comes in two ways.
– There is suffering (at least striving) while doing the deed. That is the sankhara stage.
– For apunnabhisankhara, the stronger suffering is in the future, as a kamma vipaka, per Paticca Samuppada.So, those who are suffering in the apayas NOW, are suffering due to the PREVIOUS sankhara. The current suffering in the apayas is due to vipaka.
We can take three examples to clarify.
1. Suppose X kills another person by stabbing.
– That killing ORIGINATED due to kaya sankhara that arose in X’s mind. Those thoughts then were translated to the action of killing (kaya kamma) that REQUIRED an effort. Furthermore, those thoughts also were not good thoughts and made X’s mind very agitated, which is also a part of the suffering at the moment of doing the bad deed.
– However, much worse suffering comes in a future rebirth in an apaya DUE TO that bad kamma. That future rebirth results from the uppatti PS process.2. Now let us take an example of X doing a good deed (say building a hospital) with punnabhisankhara, but without comprehension of Tilakkhana.
– That effort of building the hospital and related planning etc is the “suffering” at that moment. Some of that “suffering” will be counter-balanced by the “good state of mind.”
– But the kamma vipaka that come in the future could lead to a birth in a Deva realm.
– Yet, that return is “temporary.” After “getting paid” for the good deed, X will be back to where he was on the rebirth process.3. On the other hand, if X was a Sotapanna (and built that hospital with some comprehension of Tilakkhana), that will help X to advance to the next stage of Nibbana. Then there is progress towards ending future suffering.
In ALL three cases, there was suffering (striving) at the time of doing the deeds (i.e., at the time of GENERATING sankhara.)
– That is what is meant by “sabbe sankhara dukkha”
– After Parinibbana, no more “sankhara” and no more suffering.
– By the way, that is the other part, “sabbe sankhara anicca.” All “good and bad sankhara” come to an end with Parinibbana.Yes. You are right, y not. I was thinking about Sakadagami removing all desires for human birth. I just revised my above reply to be consistent.
Anyway, I cannot understand what you are trying to ask about a Sakadagami. Just send me an email detailing fully what you are asking. Please do not post here until I understand your question.
y not wrote: “-3. with both at once: ”
That is not possible.
– Comprehension of Tilakkha at the level of a Sakadagami will lose ANY and ALL cravings for a human existence.y not: Now I am totally lost. What SANNA are you talking about?
Is this regarding my post of January 7, 2020 at 4:50 pm?
Please quote the whole paragraph that I wrote (that is not clear) and re-phrase the question as if it is a new question. Do not refer to any back and forth above. Let us start afresh. Take time and formulate the question.
y not: I just revised the “could” to “can” in #2 that you referred to.
I did not mean any uncertainty there.
– That was an unintentional error on my part.By the way, when you ask a question, try to focus on the issue. If you just quoted what I wrote and asked for clarification, that is all you had to do. When you write a whole paragraph, the point can get lost.
– Make it a habit to quote from what I write (just the relevant part.) Then it is easier for me to see what the issue is.Upekkha: “So does that mean bad kamma vipaka and rebirths in the apayas is NOT implied in the verse “all sankhara are suffering” then?”
This does not make sense. Vipaka are not sankhara.
Hello Aniduan,
The following could be his youtube channel:
Path to NibbhanaIf not, let me know. I can check with him and find the right one.
y not, answers to your questions (as I understand) could be in the following explanation.
1. Once one becomes an Ariya by comprehending Tilakkhana to SOME EXTENT, one would not do any apunnabhisankhara that can lead to rebirths in the apayas.
– That is the base level of comprehending anicca nature, which convinces that mind of the dangers of such apayagami sankhara.2. Then the next level is a bit deeper. That convinces one of the dangers in the attachment to sensual pleasures.
– Attachment to sensual pleasures is lost in two stages of Sakadagami and Anagami.
– Then one would do punnabhisankhara that can lead to rebirths in the human and deva realms ONLY with a higher level of comprehension of Tilakkhana.3. The final stage is Arahanthood.
– At that point, one would have seen the futility of rupavacara and arupavacara jhana (i.e., the futility of such “jhanic pleasures” or the temporary existences that result from them.)
– Thus, an Arahant would do any punnabhisankhara or anenjabhisankhara only with FULL COMPREHENSION of Tilakkhana.4. Finally, either akusala-mula OR kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) would not be applicable to any actions by an Arahant.
– There is no avijja left to initiate akusala-mula PS starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– There are no akusala to be removed via the kusala-mula PS starting with “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara.”
– Whatever sankhara by an Arahant involve only kammically neutral deeds (walking, eating, etc) and also punnabhisankhara/anenjabhisankhara (good deeds and cultivation of Ariya jhana) with the FULL COMPREHENSION of Tilakkhana. Those latter are called punna kriya, not punna kamma.If it is still not clear, you may want to go back and read my previous comments.
– They explain the same in different ways.Of course, you can re-phrase any un-answered questions.
– This is a good conversation to have in order to clarify these critical points.1. Not all sankhara lead to dukkha.
– The Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada” that leads to Nibbana starts with “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara“.
– So, there are sankhara that DO NOT lead to suffering. In fact, those above lead to stop suffering.
– Specifically, those “good sankhara” are “punnabhisankhara done with comprehension of Tilakkhana.”2. Of course, suffering arises due to many types of sankhara. Those are apunnabhisankhara, anenjabhi sankhara, and punnabhisankhara (done without comprehension of Tilakkhana).
– Apunnabhisankhara lead to rebirths in the apayas.
– Anenjabhi sankhara (arupavacara jhana) lead to rebirths in arupavacara Brahma realms.
– Punnabhisankhara (done without comprehension of Tilakkhana) lead to rebirths in “other good realms” (human, deva realms, and rupavacara brahma realms.) Good, moral deeds lead to rebirths in the human and deva realms. Rupavacara jhana lead to rebirths in the rupavacara brahma realms.
– The last two (Anenjabhi sankhara and Punnabhisankhara) also DO NOT lead to the end of suffering.
