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Regarding Lotus’s first question:
“1. Bahiddha Viññāṇa corresponds to Rūpa Paṭisaṁvedī and marks the starting phase of Purāna Kamma. I understand that even for an Arahant, Rūpa Paṭisaṁvedī automatically occurs when experiencing a visual object through distorted Kāma Saññā.
However, in the everyday mind of an Arahant or Anāgāmi, which remains in Kāma Dhātu, when sensory input arises, does their mind still proceed to the first stage of contamination, which is the Bahiddha Viññāṇa state, or does it not?”
- I thought I explained in the revised post clearly that the mind of an Arahant or Anāgāmi does not proceed to the bahiddha viññāṇa.
I just posted the revised version of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- Please feel free to ask questions. These are critical issues to understand.
- Also, I may have made some mistakes in old posts on the “distorted saññā” concept. Please point them out in this thread. This issue is deep enough. I will do whatever it takes to clarify “sticky points” and to get the ideas across.
- Buddha’s teachings are like the deep ocean. It gets more and more difficult as one goes deeper, but the “big picture” becomes much clearer as one goes deeper.
Regarding the comment by Buddhas_disciple above and specifically the following comment:
“What may have Actually Happened?
- The Arahant’s past kamma had ripened, leading to death in that manner.
- The cow was just a medium, not the root cause of the Arahant’s death.
- Since animals lack the ability to consciously create good or bad moral kamma, they cannot commit anantariya kamma.”
Yes. That could be valid.
Please see the following thread by Jittananto: “Bāhiya, Pukkusāti, Tambadathika – All Killed by the Same Cow“
- Since a cow could not have planned and killed all three of them, it is likely that the “cow was just a medium.”
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1. Yes. Christian’s comment above answers Lotus’s second question. We can clarify it further with the following chart:
- Ancient yogis were able to cultivate all the jhanas and arupa samapatti. They realized the dangers of sensual pleasures (kama raga) and avoided most of the dasa akusala. In other words, they did the best they could within the “nava kamma” stage. Even though they were able to temporarily suppress kama raga to attain those jhanas and arupa samapattis, they could not figure out (did not know) how to eliminate it. That can be done only by comprehending the “whole picture” including the “purana kamma” stage.
- They were not aware of the “purana kamma” stage. The initial attachment takes place in the “purana kamma” stage. Until that is stopped, no one can break the sansaric bonds (samyojana). Furthermore, samyojana can be broken/eliminated ONLY by comprehending this complete “kamma accumulation process” in both stages! “Distorted saññā” plays a critical role here.
- We discussed the above chart and its implications in “Sotapanna Stage from Kāma Loka.”
- In fact, one “sees the Dhamma with wisdom” i.e., becomes a “sanditthiko” by “seeing with wisdom” how that initial attachment occurs automatically in the “purana kamma” stage. See “Sandiṭṭhiko – What Does It Mean?.”
2. I realized today that I had made some mistakes in the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- That may have contributed to the first question raised by Lotus above.
- I will rewrite that post within the next two days.
- Until then, please continue discussing the above issue if anyone has questions or comments.
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Good questions.
- I see that I made a mistake in one of the early posts, which could have contributed some confusion. After revising the old post and the chart in that post, I will post a response.
- My apologies for the delayed response. It has been a busy day.
P.S. I think the revisions are important enough that I should publish it as a rewritten post tomorrow or the day after. I need to revise a chart or two as well. This material is complex enough that I must be careful to get it right.
OK. That is enough for this discussion.
- If there are unresolved Dhamma issues, anyone can ask questions.
- But please stop dragging personalities/institutions into the discussion.
I also disagree with the following statements: “as long as you have not renounced the lay life, you are not in a good position to criticize them” AND ““If one is really serious about attaining Nibbāna as quickly as possible one should take the robe immediately”
We can discuss the above statements (and the following statements I make).
- Becoming a bhikkhu is a personal decision. But bhikkhus represent the Buddha and we should respect them.
- “Sangha” does not mean bhikkhus, but Noble Persons with magga phala. Thus, some bhikkhus and some lay people belong to “Sangha.” The best example of a bhikkhu not belonging to Sangha is Devadatta. The majority of bhikkhus today do not belong to the “Sangha” category. “Bhikkhu Sangha” is the category of Noble Persons who are bhikkhus.
- Anyone should be able to criticize anyone else’s statements, but without being disrespectful. We can ask questions about a concept without talking about a person. If I write something wrong, please feel free to point it out. Anyone can make mistakes. Only a Buddha would not make a mistake.
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“I’m not quite sure where I read this..”
“Now, if micca ditthi is a type of mano kamma and mano kamma arises from the first two javana citta in a citta vithi, wouldn’t this be a contradiction?”
- There is no contradiction.
- Mano kamma involves thoughts that arise automatically due to one’s unbroken samyojana. That is why those are the first javana cittas to arise. Thus, they are relatively weak.
- Each javana citta is strengthened by the previous one. Like a runner starting slowly, speeding up, and then slowing down at the end, javana cittas become weaker after the fifth. Thus, sixth and seventh javana cittas are progressively weaker.
- Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
- Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life.
- That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. But it is NOT ENOUGH to bring a rebirth (called “janaka kamma.”) Thus, kammic energy generated in javana citta #2 with mano sankhara can ONLY bring vipaka DURING A LIFE in future lives, i.e., it cannot give rise to a rebirth.
I explained that in a previous comment in the forum: “Reply To: Post on “Saṅkhāra – An Introduction”
P.S. Citta vithi explained in “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs.”
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Revised post: “Assāsa Passāsa – What Do They Mean?“
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This discussion is getting too personal. Our goal is to learn Dhamma. It is better not to put down or promote teachers. Please stop doing either. Different people (including teachers) have different preferences/perspectives and are at varying levels of understanding. Only a Buddha can see anyone else’s level of understanding; we can only make guesses.
- If you have a question you would like to discuss, you can post it. If you can answer or provide helpful information on others’ questions, please do so, too. We all would appreciate that. Let us discuss Dhamma concepts, not teachers.
- If you had a specific experience or issue with a teacher, please don’t post names. If a problem is unresolved, you can ask the question without posting the source. Our goal is to learn Dhamma.
- I encourage everyone to follow teachers/instructors whom they like. There are many teachers out there. I have listed some (not a complete list) in “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro.” You should learn from whoever is providing helpful information. It is a good idea to listen to/read from various teachers. You will automatically spend more time with your preferred teachers because you learn more from them.
- It is better not to be attached to a specific teacher other than the Buddha.
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Jittananto wrote: “It is best to maintain respect for the Maha Sangha. “
- Did anyone do that?
- I may have missed that. Please quote from the above comments and say who it was.
It is good to hear that you are fully recovered, Yash.
- I will make some comments that could be helpful to the general audience. Some issues Yash raised are common.
Yash wrote: “I was confusing Nibbana as No Self and Annihilation without even realising it!”
1. This is a common confusion, especially since we frequently see “anatta” incorrectly translated as “no-self.”
- “Anatta” is not about a self. It is the third characteristic (feature) of everything about Nature. We pursue worldly things/pleasures with the wrong view/perception of “nicca” (pronounced “nichcha.” That means to engage in actions (with abhisankhara in mind) to pursue worldly pleasures. Such a view (ditthi) arises due to wrong perception (distorted sanna) about things in the world. Such pursuits only lead to more suffering in the future (dukkha). Thus, such efforts/actions are not fruitful and dangerous (anatta; pronounced “anaththa.”).
- That is how the three characteristics are related: anicca nature leads to dukkha, and at the end, when one is reborn in an apaya, one becomes helpless (anatta).
2. Even without the above mistranslation issue, the following is another problem. Whenever they hear that an Arahant will not be reborn, a sense of fear may arise in some: What will happen to me then? Will “I” disappear? Do I want that to happen to me?
- This is why it is better not to initially think about the Arahant stage. It is a step-by-step process.
- First, one must understand that craving for worldly things will only lead to suffering in the end. That may not happen to some in this life (we know drug dealers who live luxurious lives until they die.) That is why one cannot learn Buddha’s teachings without first seeing the validity of laws of kamma and the rebirth process.
- When one starts understanding the Paticca Samuppāda process, one realizes how each rebirth ends in suffering. Death is inevitable for any existence.
- That is when one slowly begins to realize that there is nothing like a “permanent soul.” Each rebirth is according to the types of kamma accumulated and prevailing conditions at the time of death.
- In this life one is human. But in the next life, it could be a Deva, Brahma, animal, or even a hell-being, depending on the type of kammic energies accumulated and the prevailing conditions.
- For example, Angulimala had accumulated enough kammic energy (in his last life itself) to be reborn in an apāya. But the meeting with Buddha changed the prevailing conditions. Within an hour after meeting the Buddha, he became a Sotapanna and that possibility disappeared. Then he became an Arahant within a few more weeks and the conditions for any rebirth disappeared (i.e., all ten samyojana were eliminated from his mind).
3. Thus, in the end it is the comprehension of the “true nature of the world” (yathābhuta ñāna) that leads to breaking the sansaric bonds (samyojana) and eliminating ANY future suffering.
- But getting there is a step-by-step process. It is a mistake to start with “what would happen to me at Arahanthod?” That question would not even arise as one progresses on the path.
- It starts with living a moral life and learning the “nature of the world” per the teachings of the Buddha. Then one would realize that everything in this world is a grand illusion based on “distorted saññā.” The perception of “me” or “I” is an illusion. However, just saying “I” or “me” doesn’t exist is insufficient (and could be dangerous, too). One must “see” that with wisdom (paññā.) It is also called “dhamma cakkhu.”
- It is not easy, but it is the only guaranteed way. One must be patient and follow the path step-by-step.
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P.S. I saw Christian’s comment after posting the above. It is quite correct.
- One must do a deep analysis to understand how “Venerable Arahant Culapanthaka became an Arahant.
OK. I will revise an old post to explain this. It may take a day or two.
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No. The Thero does not advise to focus on a light.
- The English translation at the beginning can be misleading: “Be illuminated with the disintegration of desire.”
- The correct translation is: “Be released from the loka (aloka; commonly pronounced as āloka) with the disintegration of desire.”
- As you pointed out, “Aloka would mean transcending the loka, or Nibbana.” That is depicted in the following figure.
It is from “Pāth to Nibbāna – Learning Dhamma to Become a Sotapanna.”
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1. Of course, an anriya jhana can be cultivated by focusing on an object belonging to the world.
- Those are anariya kasina meditations. They focus on light (tejo), a clay ball (pathavi), breath (vayo), or a water bowl (apo).
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2. There is a subtle connection to light, as pointed out by the Thero @1:20 minutes.
- Our minds are in the dark, covered by avijja, ignorance about the Noble Truths. “Seeing light” means dispelling that darkness of ignorance.
- As Thero pointed out, darkness is completely dispelled at Arahanthood. “The mind becomes illuminated.” That is not about a light.
- Once one becomes a Sotapanna (and comprehends the anicca nature), one can contemplate that “end result of Nibbana of an illuminated mind.”
- Another similar technique is to contemplate with the verse, “etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti” in the “Samādhi Sutta (AN 10.6)“. It is a good idea to read the whole sutta.
- But those are not about cultivating jhana. It is about progressing on the Path toward higher magga phala.
- @ 3 minutes, the Thero specifically says, “āloka means Nibbana.” That is translated in the video as “The light is one way of discerning Nibbana.” This is why some translations are not very reliable.
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3. However, while in samadhi, one may feel a “lightness in the body” and even the presence of “white light.”
- Eventually all those go away. Light also belongs to the world (loka.)
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Jittananto wrote: “Then, due to this brief Dhamma teaching of the Buddha, Bāhiya’s mind was right away freed from defilements by not grasping.”
- Ven. Bahiya was one of a kind. In fact, he was the only one capable of understanding the meaning of that short verse in all of Buddha Sasana. Probably Minister Santati was the second.
- Even Ven. Sariputta took two weeks to attain Arahantship.
- Despite all efforts, we are not aware of a single living Arahant these days. I wonder how many Sotapannas are there. Probably not that many. It is not easy.
It is not a good idea to compare Buddha’s teachings (and equate) with other religions or philosophies. That is my belief.
- A person with a hundred-year lifespan has a brief time to get to at least the Sotapanna stage.
- Spending time “praising each other” on common moral qualities among religions is a waste of time (of course, we should not condemn other religions either; but we can point out the enormous difference).
- The goal of Buddha Dhamma is not just to live a moral life (of course that is essential), but to at least glimpse the “ultimate truth” in the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana to attain the Sotapanna stage.
- That cannot be done by reading the Bible or Bhagavad Gita.
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We have discussed enough the issue of “using sensitive words.”
- I believe all three of you are sincere about your intentions. We can resolve the issue by avoiding “sensitive” words in the future.
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Regarding the videos linked by Jttananto on March 4, 2025 at 5:17 pm.
First, I have listened to several Sinhala discourses by the Thero over the years. Of course, he has a good understanding of Buddha Dhamma.
- I was surprised to hear the specific quotes pointed out by Jittananto, and I believe those comments were intended to target a specific audience.
Jittananto wrote: “listen to this video from 13 min to 14 min”
- Nibbana sukha is not a happiness in the sense of a vedana felt. Of course, one would feel that type of vedana too, especially at the beginning (and while on the path).
- This must be a discourse delivered to children or beginners to the Buddha Dhamma.
In the second discourse (video), he says “one can find the truth in the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita.”
- That is not correct. Only a Buddha can discover the ultimate truth, and we have discussed this in many posts: “pubbe ananussutesu Dhammsu” or “previously unknown teachings.”
- Again, I am not sure what the objective of the discourse was. It may have been for beginners to the Buddha’s teachings.
Various teachers use different methods based on the audience.
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