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This obsession with jhana is doing a lot of harm.
– It is not that jhanas are bad. If one gets to jhanas easily, that is fine, but one still needs to be aware of the “anicca nature” of any jhana. It can become a distraction.
– Not only us, but ANY living being (any animal, any “hell being”) has cultivated even the highest jhanas in the past. What is there to show for that now?One should TRY TO cultivate jhanas AFTER getting magga phala. It is even better to wait until one gets to the Anagami stage (but sometimes Ariya jhanas come with the Anagami stage, depending on the person). Otherwise, there is a risk of “getting stuck” in jhanas.
– Many people who have attained jhanas believe they are Ariya jhana, but most of them don’t have Ariya jhana. As I have explained, even one with the FIRST Ariya jhana would be an Anagami. Most of the people that I know who believe they have Ariya jhanas still have kama raga. But they are under the illusion that they have Ariya jhana. That is a very bad outcome.P.S. What one needs to do is not to “keep wishing” to have something that belongs to “this world”. It is the opposite of what one needs to be doing (wishing and working towards Nibbana, to be free of this world). One needs to understand Buddha Dhamma (Paticca Samuppada) and realize the unfruitfulness AND dangers of wishing for things in this world (those are abhisankhara). That includes wishing for jhanas.
– Of course, if one has anariya jhana and KNOWS THAT and ALSO KNOWS how not to get “stuck”, that is fine.The following post is from Jorg:
Jorg has finalized his explanation chart on Idappaccayātā Paticca Samuppāda:
“Idappaccayātā Paticca Samuppāda – Jorg Wijnen”
Jorg has spent a lot of time preparing this chart and I think he has a very good understanding. I am very happy to see this.
– Please print and read this beautiful explanation. He is asking for general comments and also suggestions for improvements.First Question: “Where exactly do “I” hold these nivarana in me?”
All defilements (anusaya, gati, nivarana, etc.) remain in the mental body (gandhabba) and not in the physical body.
– The essence of the mental body consists of hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind)
– When you are reborn in a different realm, a new hadaya vatthu matching that realm is formed by kammic energy. At that time, whatever defilements you have will be transferred to that new hadaya vatthu.
– That is how the rebirth process continues.
– Of course, all those defilements will be changing continuously during a life.Your second question: “and depending on that answer, how exactly are they removed/sidestepped/dissolved/etc?”
Those defilements are removed by following the Eightfold Noble Path.
– They are removed in four stages: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant.Hello lodoniyo,
Regarding the hypothetical situation that you presented in the first post: I don’t see any value in analyzing it.
– Of course, there are some hypothetical situations worthwhile analyzing. But I cannot provide any insights by analyzing that particular case.It would be better to focus on learning and practicing Dhamma.
Yes. The fear of anything in this world will go away when one attains the Arahanthood.
– The greatest fear is fear of death. An Arahant does not even have that; it is relief to be separated from the suffering and fear-filled world.A less deep aspect to look into is why one has to deal with enemies, animals, etc.
– We all have done enough kamma to “attract enemies, and other fears”.
– The way to avoid those is to make sure to NOT PROVIDE THE CONDITIONS for such problems to appear.
– I will provide a simple example. If one keeps the house (even the sink area in the kitchen) dirty that will attract insects. Keeping everything clean will avoid such issues.
– Cultivation of Metta Bhavana could be a solution to the “enemy issue”. If the situation is severe, moving away from such persons may need to be considered.One analogy I often cite is the following. If one goes to a bad neighborhood at night, that is a perfect example of “setting the conditions” for bad things to happen.
– In other words, we all have enough “root causes” for bad things to happen (via kamma done in previous lives). We just need to be mindful NOT TO provide CONDITIONS for them to bear fruit.1 user thanked author for this post.
Yash asked: ” So will he/she get “turned on” while watching such scenes but not crave to get that “turned on” feeling? Or will he/she get permanently rid of such feeling and cravings?”
An Anagami would not be “turned on”. No sexual feelings will arise.
– Those are mind-made feelings (samphassa-ja-vedana).You can read up on that in the following posts:
“Search Results for: samphassa vedana“1 user thanked author for this post.
The verse fragment, “. ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ” is a key element in both Satipaṭṭhāna and Ānāpānasati Bhavanā.
The four sections in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhavanā are:
“..kāye kāyānupassi viharati ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam. Vedanāsu vedanānupassi viharati ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam. Citte cittänupassī viharati ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam. Dhammesu dhammānupassi viharati ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam”I have discussed that in “Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta – Structure”
Feel free to ask questions.
P.S. Yes. Pariññātā means to “fully understand”. Basically, once one is being mindful AT ALL TIMES and keeps one’s sense faculties under control, abhijja and domanassa will be SUPPRESSED and one gets to samadhi. With that samadhi, at the fourth stage, one can comprehend the true nature of this world (in Dhammanupassana) and thus can permanently REMOVE abhijja/domanassa.
Comment 1: Introduction
First a reminder. These comments assume that one has SEEN (with wisdom) the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world. That is the same as understanding the Four Noble Truths and Paticca Samuppada.
1. It is a good idea to understand the meaning of “raga“. It means one gives preference to remaining in the rebirth process. If one has understood the dangers of remaining in the rebirth process, one would START LOSING that preference and turn the mind toward attaining Nibbana. It is a gradual process. Only at the Arahant stage is one totally separated from this world.
2. One cannot even think about preferring Nibbana if one has the 10 types of miccha ditthi. One of those is not believing in the rebirth process. If that is the case, then no point in pursuing any stage of Nibbana, let alone the Anagami stage.
3. Buddha’s main assertion is that one will be subjected to suffering (in the rebirth process) as long as one craves things in this world. We can just focus on the cravings for sensual pleasures because an Anagami would only lose such cravings, i.e., kama raga. Rupa raga and arupa raga are removed at the Arahant stage.
4. When one has “kama raga” one gives preference to be reborn in kama loka (not in the apayas, of course, but in human or Deva realms.) One will be born in the apayas if one commits highly immoral deeds. One will be reborn in human or Deva realms if one has not accumulated apayagami kamma AND if one has not given up the desire for sensual pleasures, i.e., if one has kama raga. One has “kama raga” if one places a high value in sensory pleasures.
5. One can commit highly immoral deeds (apayagami deeds) ifkama raga is intense. That apayagami level of kama raga PERMANENTLY goes away at the Sotapanna Anugami stage. Here is something CRITICAL to understand. A Sotapanna Anugami DOES NOT need to willfully refrain from such actions. Even under highly-tempting situations, a Sotapanna Anugami will not be CAPABLE of carrying out an apayagami action.
6. That means a Sotapanna Anugami has removed “ditthi vipallasa.” That cleanses that mind in getting rid of the “worst level” of avijja anusaya, which is “ditthi anusaya.” Of course, that is fully realized at the Sotapanna stage, but that is guaranteed.
7. Now we get to the Sakadagami/Anagami stages. Here the key factor is getting rid of the lower two levels of kama raga. At the Sakadagami stage, the tendency to “own stuff” that can bring sensual pleasures goes away, but the desire to enjoy such things will still be there. This is what we are going to be focused on.
– This is the same as saying that even though “ditthi vipallasa” about the value of “sense-pleasing things” goes away at the Sotapanna Anugami stage, one will still have the tendency to “enjoy sensual pleasures.” This means one’s mind will still have a “strong level of attraction” to sensual pleasures.
– That WRONG PERCEPTION (sanna vipallasa) goes away in two stages. First, at the Sakadagami stage, the desire to “collect things that provide sensual pleasures” like houses, cars, etc goes away (vatthukāmā removed)
– But that sanna vipallasa completely goes away only at the Anagami stage (kilesakāmā removed). That is when one would lose all desires for any sensual pleasure.
– In either case, one does not need to willfully control one’s actions. The mind would not allow it, just like in #5 above.8. I need to explain that last part. Most of the “desires” that we have are mind-made. That is why the Buddha called vinnana a magician.
– This “mind-made vedana” is “samphassa-ja-vedana.” It is critical to understand that. In Paticca Samuppada, “phassa paccaya vedana” is just the short form. It is really “samphassa paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana.”
– The point is that all these “urges” we have are truly mind-made. When the mind “sees” the futility of any action/speech/thought, it just would not go through with it. The mind will AUTOMATICALLY stop generating “samphassa” or “contacts with greed, anger, or ignorance” at that level of understanding.
9. In other words, the mind will stop attaching to sensual pleasures when it truly comprehends the anicca nature of such actions.
– To put it another way, the mind has to realize that anything associated with sensual pleasures is of NO VALUE. Not only that, it will prevent one overcome rebirths in kama loka. As long as one is kama loka, the possibility of rebirth in the apayas is there. That is the danger.
– The same is also stated as seeing the “asubha nature” of the world (in this case, the asubha nature of things that can bring sensual pleasures). Average humans perceive “luxuries” of nice houses, cars, as “subha” or auspicious nature. But an Ariya (Noble Person) needs to see their asubha nature. As long as one can see “value” in those things, one’s mind is not freed from kama loka.
10. The above is the foundation for getting to the Anagami stage.
– If there are questions, please refer to the bullet # unless it is a general question.
I will first write here. As the discussion evolves, that material could be put in regular posts.
The main issue that I have been focusing on recently is clarifying some key issues for beginners. English translations of many suttas is outright wrong or do not have sufficient explanations. Since that affects MANY people, I want to spend enough time on that too.
Hi Jorg,
If it is too small to be seen in the forum, please email it to me: [email protected].
We can figure out a way to post it on the forum once it is finalized.
Hello Yash,
OK. I see that you are likely to have a basic understanding of a Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami. You also seem to be quite motivated.
– I think many of those who post on the forum and also write to me could be at the same stage. I use the words “likely/could be/seem to be” etc. only because no one can really know about the attainments of another (only a Buddha can know anyone’s attainment).I had been at your stage for several years. That is why I had not really written that much about getting to higher stages. Even today, I am not an Anagami. It is quite possible that I have gotten to the Sakadagami stage.
– So, it could be beneficial to describe my experiences and how I have made progress. Also, what I am doing to get to the Anagami stage.Let us first take a simple example of an alcoholic trying to break that habit.
1. The first thing to do is to abstain from drinking as much as possible. In the same way, one should abstain from obvious “problem activities” Indulging in sensual pleasures, not trying to control anger, etc. are obvious things. Some people attain meditation retreats and then go home and watch adult movies. That is not going to work if one really wants to attain the Anagami stage.
2. One will NEVER break that habit without understanding the “bad outcomes of being an alcoholic”. An average human is like an alcoholic. He has NOT SEEN (with wisdom) that craving mind-pleasing things WILL lead to future suffering. So, at the Sotapanna stage one has removed “Ditthi vipallasa“. Make sure to read that post on vipallasa: “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra”
3. Even after getting that understanding (or clear vision) it is not EASY to remove the feelings/perceptions TO BE attached. One KNOWS getting attached is bad, but one may not be able to overcome the desire. That is the critical “sanna vipallasa.” This is why it is not easy to get rid of kama raga and become an Anagami.
4. However, even a Sotapanna Anugami‘s mind WILL NOT allow any “papa kamma” (worse types of immoral deeds that can bring rebirth in the apayas). Thus even though an alcoholic who had given up drinking MAY go back to being an alcoholic, a Sotapanna Anugami WILL NEVER go back to the level of an average human.
5. How would one know that one has attained at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage? It is a critical decision that only a given person can make for themselves. But it is easy to determine whether one has attained the Anagami stage: Watch an adult movie and see whether one does not get any sexual thoughts, as I pointed out in the discussion on “Attaining Anariya Jhana as a Sotapanna”Now we can discuss how to start making progress (on getting rid of kama raga), assuming that one is at least a Sotapanna Anugami.
– I will think about how best to start on that. Others can comment and also ask questions about what I write. We can start by commenting on what I wrote above. Any faults with what I wrote? Anything to add?Hello Yash,
You asked: “Also could you please elaborate ‘contemplate the asubha nature of “mind-pleasing things‘ in this world..”
Asubha means “not fruitful” or “not beneficial.”
That goes with the other three characteristics of nature: anicca, dukkha, and anatta.
First, can you tell me what you understand by anicca, dukkha, and anatta?
OK. I forgot that.
Since you are a Sotapanna, you have removed the wrong views about this world. The wrong views here are those to take this world to be of “nicca, sukha, atta” nature. But in reality, the world is of “anicca, dukkha, anatta” nature.
– You know that, but I am stating that for the benefit of the others.So, a Sotapanna has removed diṭṭhi vipallāsa.
– One gets to the next stage (Sakadagami, Anagami) by removing saññā vipallāsaThat means even though one realizes that attaching to worldly things WILL lead to suffering, it is difficult to remove the saññā that automatically binds one’s mind to sensual pleasures.
– The most effective bhavana for that is “asubha bhavana.”The “Rāga Sutta (AN 6.107)” succinctly explains that.
– The English translation there is not that good. For example “You should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed,.” could be better stated as, “You should contemplate on the unfruitful nature of “mind-pleasing things” to give up kama raga“.Thus, the suitable meditation is to contemplate the asubha nature of “mind-pleasing things” in this world..
Also, see, “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra”
