Tagged: 500 years, duration of Buddha Sasana, Sakadagami
- This topic has 10 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 4 months ago by Lal.
June 26, 2021 at 7:57 pm #34797DanielStParticipant
Dear Lal, dear friends
I have been interested in two other questions that I want to ask you here.
The first is about Sakadagami. Also here in Myanmar I came across the statement of some monks that Sakadagami are supposed to be “healthy forever”, “free from sickness” and so on. However, the interpretation that you give, in terms of “no more rebirth in human bhaba” is something new, that I find a good explanation. I was wondering if there is any source of that statemennt “healthy forever” in the Tipitaka?
When a human achieves Sakadagami magga phala, he will be born in Deva realm one his physical body is dead, right? Even if his bhava would still have more kammic energy left (because it is an anantarika kamma)
Is that correct?
The second question is about the Buddha’s Sasana and 5000 years. Here, everybody also believes in 5000 years. But when I research a source, I cannot find much clear sources. Some sources say even 500, and so on. You wrote in one article, I think, that it can also be 5000-80000?
June 26, 2021 at 9:16 pm #34798
I am not aware of a sutta that directly says a Sakadagami would not be born below the Deva realms. It is possible that there is.
– However, we can easily deduce that because a Sakadagami has lost “vatthu kama” the desire to “own olarika sensory objects.” Thus he/she could only be born with a sukuma rupa, i.e., in Deva realms. Even though kama raga anusaya is much reduced it is not eliminated like for an Anagami.
“When a human achieves Sakadagami magga phala, he will be born in Deva realm one his physical body is dead, right? Even if his bhava would still have more kammic energy left (because it is an anantarika kamma) Is that correct?”
– Yes. That is correct.
“The second question is about the Buddha’s Sasana and 5000 years. Here, everybody also believes in 5000 years. But when I research a source, I cannot find much clear sources. Some sources say even 500, and so on. You wrote in one article, I think, that it can also be 5000-80000?”
– No. I have never written that the Buddha Sasana can last 5000-80000 years. Please don’t quote me unless you can give the post and bullet # where I make such statements.
– The Gotami Sutta (AN 8.51) has the following verse: “Sace, ānanda, nālabhissa mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajjaṃ, ciraṭṭhitikaṃ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṃ abhavissa, vassasahassameva saddhammo tiṭṭheyya. Yato ca kho, ānanda, mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajito, na dāni, ānanda, brahmacariyaṃ ciraṭṭhitikaṃ bhavissati. Pañceva dāni, ānanda, vassasatāni saddhammo ṭhassati.”
Translated: “But, Ānanda, if women had not obtained permission to bear the robes, the Buddha Sasana would have lasted 1,000 years. But now that I have given them permission, the Sasana will last only 500 years.”
However, there is at least one sutta that says as long as true Dhamma will not totally disappear and there will be people who will be able to attain Nibbana. I hope someone may remember the name of that sutta and post it.
It is quite clear that the number of Arahants decreased dramatically 500 years after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. The fourth Buddhist Council held in Sri Lanka (when the Tipitaka was written down) was attained by all Arahants. That was about 450 years after the Parinibbana of the Buddha.
– But after that number of Arahants decreased rapidly. But there will always be Arahants as long as the true Dhamma exists.
– I am not sure where the limit of 5000 years comes from. Again, if someone knows, I would like to know that too.
P.S. I may have casually mentioned the 5000-year limit (not 50000), but that is only because that number is commonly quoted. In fact, Waharaka Thero had also mentioned that number, as I recall.
June 27, 2021 at 12:37 am #34802DanielStParticipant
Here is the statement of you concerning 5000-80000. Sorry that I quoted you without the reference. It can be misleading, I agree.
“Our Solar system lasts around 15 billion years; that is 15 thousand million years. During this cycle four Buddhas have already appeared with Buddha Gotama the last and Buddha Kassapa before him. There is one more Buddha appearing before the destruction of this Earth. A given Buddha Sasana of a given Buddha lasts from 5000 to 80,000 years. ”
I think what you mean there is that at other times, i.e. when human’s have different life span and different morality, a Sasana might last longer, up to 80.000 years. But not thid one. So the Lifetimes of Sasana is not always the same. Is that correct?
You deduce that from losing the desire to own sensual objects it follows that one will be born only with sukuma rupa. How do you conclude that? I personally cannot see the clear link in between.
June 27, 2021 at 6:26 am #34808
Yes. My statement there referred to ALL Buddhas.
The human lifetime is variable.
– Even though these days it is about 100 years, during some Buddhas it lasted many thousands of years. As I remember, it was quite long even during the time of Kassapa Buddha, who appeared before Gotama Buddha during this Maha Kappa.
November 9, 2021 at 2:24 am #36053
Can we assume from the above that the Buddha sasana is over? So we are fortunate enough to have the explanations from Waharaka Thero and Lal in order to reach Nibbana.
November 9, 2021 at 3:53 am #36054
Lal said: “However, there is at least one sutta that says as long as true Dhamma will not totally disappear and there will be people who will be able to attain Nibbana. I hope someone may remember the name of that sutta and post it.”
I found this: MIL 5.1.7
… “The good law will now, Ānanda, endure for five hundred years.” In so saying he was fixing a limit to religion. But when in speaking to Subhadda, and by way of proclaiming who were the true Samaṇas, he said: “But if, in this system, the brethren live the perfect life, then the world would not be bereft of Arahats“
There is a longer explanation about those two statements.
November 9, 2021 at 8:55 am #36072
Here is a detailed description of the account in the Vinaya Pitaka where the Buddha says Buddha Dhamma will FLOURISH only for 500 years:
“20. Nuns (Bhikkhunī)”
– There is also the “Gotamī Sutta (AN 8.51)” that summarizes the above account.
But that does not mean Buddha Dhamma would have disappeared after 500 years.
– As the reference given by Tobias points out, the Buddha said that “the Buddha Sasana will survive in the human realm as long as the Noble lineage survives (meaning as long as there are Sotapannas).
– That is in the “Mahāparinibbāna Sutta (DN 16)” toward the end: “Yasmiṁ kho, subhadda, dhammavinaye ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo na upalabbhati, samaṇopi tattha na upalabbhati. Dutiyopi tattha samaṇo na upalabbhati. Tatiyopi tattha samaṇo na upalabbhati. Catutthopi tattha samaṇo na upalabbhati. Yasmiñca kho, subhadda, dhammavinaye ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo upalabbhati, samaṇopi tattha upalabbhati, dutiyopi tattha samaṇo upalabbhati, tatiyopi tattha samaṇo upalabbhati, catutthopi tattha samaṇo upalabbhati. Variant: ca → idheva (mr)Imasmiṁ kho, subhadda, dhammavinaye ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo upalabbhati, idheva, subhadda, samaṇo, idha dutiyo samaṇo, idha tatiyo samaṇo, idha catuttho samaṇo, suññā parappavādā samaṇebhi aññehi.
–Ime ca, subhadda, bhikkhū sammā vihareyyuṁ, asuñño loko arahantehi assāti.”
That means: “Subhadda, in whatever teaching and training the noble eightfold path is not found, there is no true Sotapanna, no Sakadagami, no Anagami, and no Arahant found. In whatever teaching and training the noble eightfold path is found, there is a true Sotapanna found, a Sakadagami, an Anagami, and an Arahant found. In this teaching (Buddha Dhamma) and training (Vinaya) the noble eightfold path is found.
– As long as bhikkhus maintain the Ariya lineage, this world will have Arahants.”
November 11, 2021 at 2:13 am #36080
Lal, will you change the texts on this web site regarding the “2500 years”? Or will you write a new post?
November 11, 2021 at 2:55 am #36081
Tobias: I am not sure which post(s) you are referring to and why. You need to be more specific.
– What is “2500 years”?
– Which posts refer to that number?
November 11, 2021 at 5:02 am #36082
5000 years is mostly mentioned and 2500 years as the remaining time of Buddha sasana.
Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27), #17 refers to 5000 years Buddha sasana.
In this post you said “No progress can be made outside the Buddha Sasana – It must be noted that the time limit for Buddha Sasana of 5000 years or so holds only in this “human world”.”.
Why are Tilakkhana not Included in 37 Factors of Enlightenment?, #2 refers to 5000 years.
The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka, #13…5000 years.
November 11, 2021 at 7:17 am #36083
OK. Let me clarify that.
There are two facts verified by Tipitaka references:
1. The Buddha stated that his Buddha Sasana would FLOURISH only in the first 500 years. That means there will be abundant Arahants at any time during that period.
2. However, his Buddha Sasana will not completely disappear until the Ariya lineage is maintained.
The above statements are also confirmed by the following:
– There were 1000 (or 500, I don’t remember the exact #) Arahants present at the Fourth Buddhist Council held about 500 years after the Prinibbana of the Buddha. That was the last Council conducted by Arahants.
– Soon after that the true and correct teachings started fading away in the MAINSTREAM. That was due to the rise and spread of Mahayana.
– However, there have been infrequent Arahants and people with various stages of magga phala within the past 2000 years. During this period, there could have been “small bursts of resurgence” due to the birth of Jati Sotapannas. We are in such a “burst of activity” right now, thanks to Waharaka Thero.
– I have discussed some of that in the recent post, “Yoniso Manasikāra and Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
The 5000 years number is a limit to how far such “small bursts of resurgence” can go into the future.
– I have read accounts in various places (I cannot remember where; it may not be the Tipitaka) that the absolute limit of the duration of the Buddha Gotama’s Buddha Sasana is 5000 years. Waharaka Thero has mentioned that too, without giving a reference.
– However, Wahraka Thero also mentioned that at the end, all the “dhathus” of the Buddha (remains of his body parts like teeth) will disappear. Furthermore, the number of bhikkhus will drastically reduce and they will gradually start living as householders. By that time, they will only wear a “yellow band” on their arm instead of wearing the yellow robes.
– That is happening even now in Japan to some extent, I have heard. But I am not certain.
– However, we are not even close to that worldwide.
Therefore, I think it is OK to leave that “5000-year” number as the duration of this Buddha Sasana (i.e., 2500 more years as the absolute limit). It just gives the idea that it is far from over.
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