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The new post of today provides more information on the subject:
OK. I have revised #13 in “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” as follows. Don’t hesitate to point out further possible revisions. I don’t read the whole post when I revise one.
13. With adhimokkha as a condition, (Ariya) bhava arises. Note that an Ariya bhava arises via ELIMINATING a uppatti bhava. For example, one is “born” an Anāgāmi by eliminating the possibility of rebirths in the 11 realms of kāma loka.
– The resulting existence (or “bhava”) matches that state of mind: “paṭi+ichcha sama uppāda”; one “lives” that experience. In the above example, an Anāgāmi does not have the mindset to be reborn in kāma loka.
– If it is a rebirth at paṭisandhi, an appropriate “bhava” is selected according to the kamma nimitta. Here any “apāyagāmi” kamma seeds acquired in the distant past do not get a chance to come to the forefront, and thus a rebirth in the lower four realms is prevented.
– Of course, at an Arahant’s death, the kusala-mula PS process stops (forever) without grasping a new bhava.1. Yes. Not many teachers truly understand details about jhanas. Of course, these details have been hidden for many centuries until Waharaka Thero made self-consistent explanations.
– There are Ariya jhana (kama raga ELIMINATED) and anariya jhana (kama raga SUPPRESSED)
– Then there are jhana and jhana samapatti.2. When in a jhana, jhana citta DO NOT run continuously. So, in effect one goes in and out of jhana. That is why one in a jhana can see, hear, etc.
– But when in jhana samapatti, jhana citta run CONTINUOUSLY. Thus, one in jhana samapatti CAN NOT see, hear, etc.3. Jorg wrote: “also a story from the sutta when a monk got “cremated” in the forest, and was seen later in the village by the people who cremated him because they thought he was dead..”
– That is an account of an Arahant who was in Nirodha Samapatti. That is a special case of a samapatti. One needs to get to the highest “arupavacara jhana” AND be an Arahant to get to nirodha samapatti.
– The body of someone in nirodha samapatti can not be destroyed.4. Jorg wrote: “However, he teaches to get into jhanas via breath.”
– That is unfortunate. Breath meditation can ONLY lead to anariya jhana.5. I suggest reading the new post that I just posted: “Rāga and Jhāna – Two Commonly Misunderstood Words”
– It has more details and links for further details.I have revised the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” to explain the difference between adhimokkha and upadana.
– It is important to understand that difference, and it was not quite clear.
– Thanks to Tobias for bringing it into focus.I have added #16 to that post: (It is a good idea to read the post referred to in #16)
16. In the Akusala-mula PS that feeds the rebirth process, the critical step of “upādāna paccayā bhavō” leads to the creation of the kamma bhava (energy to feed future rebirths.)
– That upādāna forces the mind to act with avijjā repeatedly and to strengthen that kamma bhava. That is explained in detail in “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna.”
– In contrast, in the Kusala-mula PS, that step is replaced by “adhimokkha paccayā bhavō.” That bhava is an Ariya bhava (existence as a Noble Person) that makes any existing kamma bhava (created via Akusala-mula PS processes) ineffective.Tobias asked: “What we don’t know: how is bhava defined in the last cycle with namarupa involved? It should not be kammabhava/upapattibhava, because the kamma is akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ (neither dark nor bright).”
It is correct that kamma in the kusala-mula PS is “is akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ (neither dark nor bright)”
– It does not create “kamma bhava” that can bring future vipaka. Such “kamma bhava” are created by “upadana paccaya bhava”.
– In the Kusala-mula PS, it is “adhimokkha paccayā bhavo” That does not create kamma bhava or uppatti bhava.
– That is what I was trying to explain (in different words) in my earlier comments. Please read those again. With Kusala-mula PS, one makes progress in the “Ariya bhava.”Tobias asked: “Is there a complete kusala mula PS in the literature, in a commentary in the Tipitaka?”
– Not in detail like for the Akusala-mula PS. But we can deduce it. That is why it is not explained.
– P.S. I don’t think anyone in recent years has explained it until Waharaka Thero. That is why there is no English translation of it at Sutta Central They don’t even understand the 16-cycle analysis. In fact, I don’t think I have seen the Kusala-mula PS in any English text (even in the short form).Hi,
My browser refused to display your link saying too many advertisements.
Can you email me ([email protected]) the file so that I can insert it into your post?
I am removing the link until then.
OK. It was bugging me, so I dropped everything and reviewed the description in the “Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga”
I think I discussed this briefly with you and Seng Kiat back in 2020 via email when the two of you asked for clarification (separately). As I explained then, the “Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga” in the above link provides a detailed explanation. The “standard PS” is analyzed via 16 cycles. I have not written a post on it, since it is very complex.
1. It describes in detail the 16 steps for an akusala mula PS. The description starts in section 2. Abhidhammabhājanīya.
– It is not easy to follow those 16 cycles. There are 4 cycles each for 2.1. Paccayacatukka, 2.2. Hetucatukka, 2.3. Sampayuttacatukka, 2.4. Aññamaññacatukka.
– That means for four types of paccaya: paccaya, hetu, sampayutta, Aññamañña.2. Then there are four cycles (catukka) within each of those. That is how it becomes 16 cycles!
– That analysis takes up most of the rest of the section.
– So, it provides that VERY DETAILED analysis ONLY for the akusala-mula PS.3. The point is that for Kusala-mula PS, it describes only the first of the 16 cycles!
– That is why it has only “nama”: “..viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṁ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ.”
– The other steps ending with:..viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpaṁ, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatanaṁ” are NOT explained again, because they proceed similarly to the case of Akusala-mula PS.I also found the emails that I exchanged with you and Seng Kiat.
– My email to Seng Kiat with the explanation was on Aug. 25, 2020.
– You asked about it later on. I replied to you on Dec. 29, 2020.For All: As the Buddha admonished Ven. Ananda, PS is VERY deep. One can go to extreme details. However, it is not necessary to go to such depths to understand the basic porcess.
Yes. You seem to have a point there.
I will take a good look at it after finalizing the new post. Thanks, Tobias!
Tobias asked: Can it be that this preparation of food is just punna kamma and the kusala thoughts with understanding are in the background and operate the kusala mula PS? Otherwise, why is it not mentioned in Vb 6 as namarupa?”
Appropriate namarupa arise (with an understanding of Tilakkhana at that level) in the Kusala-mula PS. The steps in the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” are from the Vibhanga; see #5 in the post.
– I don’t understand why you say that “why is it not mentioned in Vb 6 as namarupa?”
– It is possible that you may be looking at a detailed analysis where only the “nama” is in play with the “Chattayatana”, not “namarupa” with “salayatana.”All kammas are mind-made. A kusala kamma REMOVES raga, dosa, moha from a mind and an akusala kamma adds.
Tobias wrote: “then you should modify the post on kusala mula PS because there you describe it as if the kusala mula PS is responsible for upatti and pavutti bhava.”
– I don’t think there is anything to be revised. If you see a particular bullet # giving that idea please quote that.
– Kusala-mula PS does not create NEW bhava. There is no “upadana paccaya bhava bhava” in the Kusala-mula PS. Please read that post again.Tobias asked: “Do you say that new kamma bhava is accumulated while doing kusala kamma?”
No. The Kusala-mula PS does not accumulate kamma bhava.
– But it ELEVATES one to higher bhava, by eliminating the ability to be “hooked into” lower bhava, as you wrote in the later (last) comment.Tobias wrote: “I agree. But those energies are namarupa and that is not mentioned in the kusala mula PS (just “nama”).”
– There are “namarupa” arising in the Kusala-mula PS. Those are “good namarupa” corresponding to good planned deeds. For example, while preparing to make an offer of food to bhikkhus, one could be visualizing the preparation of such food or the actual offering itself.Tobias wrote: “This explanation is better: We do kusala kamma via kusala mula PS and that reduces the ability (the “hook”) to operate the akusala mula PS. When the hook is totally removed every kamma bhava is a dud.”
– Yes. It is.
– Maybe a bit better to say, “..every kamma bhava is EFFECTIVELY a dud.”Kamma bhava IS “vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho”
In effect, kamma bhava is in viññāṇa dhatu.
– Viññāṇa dhatu has namagotta PLUS kammic energies, i.e., those energies below the suddhatthaka stage.Even a living Arahant has kamma bhava, i.e., there are kammic energies in the viññāṇa dhatu. But they do not become “uppatti bhava” at the dying moment, because there is no upadana.
– Of course, an Arahant would not ADD anymore to the kamma bhava either.In the step, “adhimokkha paccayā bhavo” in kusala-mula PS, one gets to the corresponding bhava.
– A Sotapanna, for example, will be born in an appropriate bhava and jati (not below the human bhava).
– A Sotapanna will grasp the appropriate bhava and jati at the cuti-patisandhi moment. But that happens via the akusala-mula PS.Tobias,
You are looking at the final step of Arahanthood.
To get there, one has to proceed step-by-step.
– For example, a Sotapanna is still bound to this world. He has salayatana, bhava, jati.
– But his salayatana, bhava, and jati will not “go below” those corresponding to the human bhava.With each higher level of magga phala, more bonds are broken.
– But until reaching the Arahanthood, some bonds remain and the corresponding salayatana, bhava, jati, etc will remain.I have often explained that I don’t like to discuss jhanic experiences.
– Since I have not attained the Angami stage yet, I do not have Ariya jhana.My advice is to focus on getting to the Sotapanna stage and not jhana.
– Some people get to anariya jhana on the way to the Sotapanna stage automatically, and some don’t.
– Many people can get to anariya jhanas without understanding Buddha Dhamma. Gotama Buddha (before attaining the Buddhahood) learned how to get into anariya jhanas from two yogis who had the highest jhanas. Those two yogis did not know anything about Buddha Dhamma.We all have attained the highest jhana in many previous lives. Even those in the animal realm or the apayas have attained those highest jhanas in previous lives, too.
– I don’t understand this obsession with jhanas. No matter how much I explain, these questions keep coming up.
– That is not to say that even anariya jhanas are bad. If you can get into jhanas, that is good. But don’t be misled and get stuck in “jhanic pleasures.” I personally know people who are “stuck.” The goal should be to get to the Sotapanna stage.
– Jhanas don’t get one to be free of the apayas; the Sotapanna stage does.I am not familiar with the author, Eisel Mazard, that you are quoting. There are many confusing articles written by people who just get the meanings of Pali words from dictionaries (written by those who have no real understanding of Buddha Dhamma.)
His following statement is wrong: “The Pali word is gandhabba, and this is a sort of “heavenly musician” that could be described as the masculine counterpart to a nymph: a sensuous and somewhat insouciant sort of sprite, often depicted as part of the entourage of the more powerful gods.”
– In addition to the “human gandhabba,” there is also a category of “gandhabba Devas.” Another sutta mentions a “gandhabba Deva,” who is a musician. That has given rise to this notion of gandhabba as a “heavenly musician.” I hope you can see the confusion! This is just one example of confusion created by bad translations.Many suttas refer to human gandhabba. That author is just not aware of them. See, “75 results for gandhabba”
When a human existence (bhava) is grasped, a manomaya kaya (with a hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa) is created by kammic energy.
– Then, that manomaya kaya waits for a suitable womb.
– During that “waiting period,” that manomaya kaya can “absorb” scents from flowers, etc., as food and become a bit “denser.” Thus the name gandhabba (“gandha” + “abba” where “gandha” means “aroma/odor” and “abba” means “to take in”) See #2 of “Hidden World of the Gandhabba: Netherworld (Paralōka)“Yes. As you wrote, “So, the initial sensory processing is automatic, but somehow at the khandā level a “person” is conjured up.”
1. What takes place in the mind is a PROCESS.
-The hadaya vatthu only gets very short “snapshots” of any sensory experiences.
– For example, while watching a movie, bits of sound and visual inputs come in at a very fast rate. The mind can connect the appropriate bits of sound and visuals and put together a coherent sound and a visual.
– I have tried to explain this in several posts using the “movie analogy.” See, for example the following two posts in the current series: “Vision Is a Series of “Snapshots” – Movie Analogy” and “Aggregate of Forms – Collection of “Mental Impressions” of Forms”
– It may be a good idea to scan through that subsection, the last post of which I posted today:
“Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime”2. The key point that one grasps when getting rid of sakkaya ditthi is that there is no permanent “soul-type entity.”
– Of course, the perception of a “me” and “I” will be there until the Arahant stage.
– At the Sotapanna stage, one only SEES (OR REALIZES) that there is no “unchanging person.”
– Getting rid of the “sense of me” (asmi māna) happens only at the Arahant stage.3. Lang wrote: “I recall that in another post you wrote that the Buddha said that viññāṇa is like a magician. Is this an example of that? That viññāṇa produces the notion of a “person” out of an automatic process.”
– That is correct.4. Lang wrote: “Is this also related to atta/anatta? The notion of a “person” implies that somebody is in control or in charge (atta) when the true nature of sensory processing is such that nobody is “in charge” (anatta)?”
– They are related, but anatta (in anicca, dukka, anatta) means “unfruitful nature.” See, “Anatta is a Characteristic of the World, not About a ‘Self’”
– Atta and anatta have several different meanings and need to be understood in the context where the words are used. Also attā is different from “atta.” For example, in “Attā Hi Attanō Nāthō” “attā” (with a long “ā”) indicates a :person” in the mundane sense.
