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Sub title: A New Paticca Samuppāda Process Starts Only if One Starts Acting with Avijjā
– Comment: All have avijja, including Sotapannas, Sakadagamis and Anagamis to less and less a degree. Only Arahants have removed avijja. The other three still have desire for kamaloka and rupaloka
10. “One would pursue that ārammana (the sight, sound, etc.) ONLY IF one perceives that it is worthwhile or beneficial to him or her. Unless one has not REMOVED sakkāya ditthi, one is under the wrong view that those sensory experiences are one’s own”
– Comment: A Sotapanna, a Sakadagami and an Anagami alike would pursue, and at the cuti-patisandhi moment, GRASP an arammana that ‘fits with’ their Stage of attainment. But all three had removed sakkayaditthi at the Sotapanna Stage.
“One would pursue that ārammana (the sight, sound, etc.) ONLY IF one perceives that it is worthwhile or beneficial to him or her” :
– Comment: A Sotapanna, a Sakadagani and an Anagami would ‘pursue’ an arammana as long as it does not pertain to the apayas, the human realm and below, and the kama loka respectively. All three see future existences in line with their attainment as ‘worthwhile and beneficial’ (at their respective Stages of Nibbana), aware, nevertheless, that those existences too will come to an end. They DO SEE, in fact, that they are NOT one’s own BECAUSE Sakkayaditthi had been removed (at the Sotapanna Stage).
The distinction to be seen is between ‘that it is worthwhile or beneficial to him or her’ and ‘sakkaya ditthi- being under the wrong view that those sensory experiences are one’s own’.
The English translation IS in Latin script (Tobias is saying). If there were an ‘English script’ that preceded the Latin one, that ‘English script’ would still be written in Latin script. ….. if I get Tobias right, that is.
dn21 “Sakkapañha Sutta” 1. Pañcasikha’s Song, and the introductory chapter.
English translation there: “The Questions of Sakka.”
It is this one who is the ‘musician'( gandhabbadevaputto). It is one of my favourite suttas, bookmarked in fact, so it took me no time at all to provide the reference.
To me also is seems obvious that Dhamma (the true, original Dhamma) can be taught only by Ariyas.
Nevertheless, we should feel grateful also to those who just passed on the suttas down the generations without themselves having got to the true, the ‘hidden’ meaning in the suttas, the one the Buddha intended to convey. Else, those suttas would not have survived for Ariyas to get to the deeper meaning later down the centuries.
It is the work of Dhammata in both cases – the one just in the preservation of the Dhamma in Its literal sense, the other in Its true exposition by Ariyas, both in their own time and place, and in both cases to those ‘deserving’ of it.
As to the main point under discussion – whether LISTENING is necessary to attain the Sotapanna Stage – that is still debatable. One way I see that would resolve the issue is if someone were to declare to have attained the Sotapanna Stage WITHOUT ever having listened to a single desana. (In case the doubt arises, an Ariya would not even THINK of lying, since the consequences of that will be full well known to him/her; and if he/she were NOT an Ariya, but only claiming to be one, still he/she will no doubt know what it WILL lead to. It has not escaped my notice that all so-called ‘enlightened masters’ declare only a ‘sudden bolt out of the blue’ and never any stage magga phala).
Afterthought: but…there are or may be those who are BORN Sotapannas.
“Yet we cannot do otherwise, because we are impelled by thirst and hunger.”
Lal has that as ‘ In fact, we have to eat and drink to maintain our lives.’
And that is just what I meant. I see no difference at all in the two statements.Perhaps the notion of aharepatikulasanna comes in here, if this is what is meant; if not, it makes no difference. I have been conscious of this repulsiveness for quite some time, not of food itself(as to taste etc), but of this disgusting process that we have to carry out, day in day out. Every morning I see: look what this box produces! At meal times I see: this food will be that in the morning!
But it is all necessary for maintaining life in a human body. That is how devas must look upon human bodies, much like we look upon pigs – careful to keep a distance, more so due to the much finer sensitivity of their senses.
Or like this, Christian:
…seeing that this box we are in is but a processing mechanism that converts liquids and solids to urine and faeces; the aromas and flavours we so relish turn into detestable waste. Yet we cannot do otherwise, because we are impelled by thirst and hunger. Moreover, it is beset by disease, aches and pains, ending in old age and death. Such is the existence we have to bear; even so, a human existence is in fact the best to see through all that, given, as you say, that one is a tihetuka.
What to say of one lived in a Buddha sasana, where through the compassion of an Ariya or Ariyas, we, on our way to Nibbana, can put an end to all that forever (besides, of course, to existences in still lower realms)?
Much merit to you and to all who spread the Dhamma.
mn38/en/sujato:
The Longer Discourse on the Ending of Craving Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhayasutta
“….Sāti, the fisherman’s son, had the following harmful misconception:
“As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, it is this very same consciousness that roams and transmigrates, not another.”
Several mendicants heard about this.
“Is it really true, Reverend Sāti, that you have such a harmful misconception.
“Absolutely, reverends. As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, it is this very same consciousness that roams and transmigrates, not another.”
Then, wishing to dissuade Sāti from his view, the mendicants pursued, pressed, and grilled him,
“Don’t say that, Sāti! Don’t misrepresent the Buddha, for misrepresentation of the Buddha is not good. And the Buddha would not say that.
In many ways the Buddha has said that consciousness is dependently originated, since consciousness does not arise without a cause.”
(Anekapariyāyenāvuso sāti, paṭiccasamuppannaṃ viññāṇaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā, aññatra paccayā natthi viññāṇassa sambhavo”ti.)Now, from Lal’s last entry (above): “…Dhammā includes kamma bija, which are in vinnanakkhandha (our FUTURE hopes and expectations…Those are energies. Kamma vipaka materialize due to them….Dhammā includes memories,….. The other three khandhas are included in memories. ”
Is that not saying that vinnanakhandha ‘roams and transmigrates’ (along with the other three khandhas, although all four are constantly undergoing change?) Are these dhamma or memories not ever with us? (ready to be accessed, as it were). Or else, a new vinnana and the whole set of khandhas arise for every new bhava, but that has been ruled out.
It must be that I am missing something fundamental and pivotal here because the distinction is too stark (it seems to me).
Thank you Lal
– and for redirecting my comment here.
– and also in anticipation for the upcoming posts“This account is from ‘Milinda Panha’, which is A LATER EDITION TO THE TIpitaka.”
I did not know that Lal, thank you.
I knew that King Milinda was somewhat later than the Buddha, but not how much later exactly. I figured out that Nagasena must have been an Arahant, judging by the clarity and the certitude of his answers- his words reflecting the knowledge of the Buddha.
Thank you.
Space oddity? Space FACTS from a Buddha!
From: “How far to heaven?”
The king said: ‘How far is it, Nāgasena, from here to the Brahma world ?’
‘Very far is it, O king. If a rock, the size of an upper chamber, were to fall from there, it would take four months to reach the earth, though it came down eight-and-forty thousand leagues each day and night.’
(Rājā āha—“bhante nāgasena, kīvadūro ito brahmaloko”ti? “Dūro kho, mahārāja, ito brahmaloko kūṭāgāramattā silā tamhā patitā ahorattena aṭṭhacattālīsayojanasahassāni bhassamānā catūhi māsehi pathaviyaṃ patiṭṭhaheyyā”ti.)Taking a league to be 7 miles, we have a distance of : 84,000 leagues x 7 mls x 120 days = : 70,560,000 mls, that is, about half -way the average distance between Earth and Mars. The deva realms would then be closer still. The sutta does not specify which brahma realm is meant, but I figure that the higher brahma realms above the Abhassara are not subject to the gravitational pull of the Earth (or the Sun, for that matter , or of any other planet) for all these are destroyed eventually, but those brahma realms remain intact, independent of the existence or otherwise of any celestial body.
It would APPEAR amazing that an estimate of such a distance could be made by someone 2,500 years ago, and that the speed of ‘Milinda’s upper chamber’is given as 24,500 m.p.h (when it is known today that meteorites travel at a speed of between 25,000 and 150,000 m.p.h !!)BUT NOT WHEN WE KNOW THAT IT WAS KNOWLEDGE COMING FROM A BUDDHA. This is one other instance where Buddhadhamma was, is and ever will be far ahead of science.
Even though true, cosmic and other ‘scientific’facts such as these found in Buddhadhamma should not deviate us from the main, the ONE objective of making an end of suffering. If anything, they only go on to prove, if there were any need for it, that the knowledge of a Buddha, Sattha devamanussanam, is indeed supreme.
May the blessings of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha be with us all.
– “..Sotapanna does not necessarily become a Sakadagami Anugami UNTIL he/she keeps working towards the Sakadagami stage.”
– “As long as one is making an effort (viriya) on making progress, that person WILL BE a Sakadagami Anugami.”Now say such a one makes that effort and dies as a Sakadagami Anugami. Not returning to the human realm(or below) applies to Sakadagamis, those who have attained the magga and the phala.
So I understand that the destination of a Sakadagami Anugami will be just the same as if he were a Sotapanna; that effort does not NECESSARILY translate into a better realm than the human one after death unless Sakadagami-hood is attained (for even Sotapannas MAY attain a deva existence – the difference of course being that for a Sakadagami that deva existence would be his last in the kamaloka)
Is this correct?
It will be impossible, because ‘inhumane’, to stop those ‘mind-made’ somanassa vedana from arising – UNLESS one has reached the Anagami stage.
Nature works through these mental states of beings, for better or for worse. In our case, the Buddha would not have gone through the necessary experiences of those 1,500 lifetimes had that brahmin and his wife, AT WILL, at any point during that time, resisted, so to speak, the (no less than) overpowering urge to be together again for the umpteenth time by NOT ‘generating MIND-MADE pleasant vedana (called somanassa vedana) based on that recalled memory’. One can have no desire to spend even one lifetime with anyone if somanassa vedana is not there – what to say of 1,500 lives?
What you are describing here, Lal, is what we should strive for, not how the matter stands for people in general, even for those on the Path at or below the Sakadagami stage.
The experiencing of, or, better said, the NON-STOPPING, the non-resistance to all that is good in us, because rooted in love, leads IN TIME to the highest – not of itself or by itself, of course. Then follows the understanding, the acceptance,and the practice of the Dhamma. But it is done in stages, as you yourself have pointed out many times. It is the basis, the foundation of all good that can ensue, including ultimately Nibbana. Love, the manifold forms and stages of it, from abstaining from outright killing to the slightest harm done by the mere utterance of a word is condensed in the 5 precepts. Love as we have here is the second highest expression of it, the gift of the Dhamma being of course the first. This is why I keep repeating how grateful I am to you for this Gift of gifts.
This is what underlies what I am trying to say. All too often the implication naturally arises (I am not saying it is so implied by yourself) that, in the matter now under discussion, one, anyone, any participant or reader, SHOULD stop those mind-made somanassa vedana from arising TO STOP THE WHOLE REBIRTH PROCESS. (Or, at a single moment, all would attain Arahanthod!) And, seeing that they are unable to do so time after time, a sense of failure, of defeat sets in. Defeated, one may abandon ‘this whole Dhamma thing’. It is of course not so with me, but it may happen to others.
I feel not enough emphasis has been placed on this all along. Please accept that in no way am I out to criticise, or even less to express disapproval of anything stated in Buddhadhamma. My aim is to understand ever more and more, but this concern has arisen of how others may be affected and possibly dissuaded from the Path by high self-expectations, irrealizable actually for anyone below the higher stages of the Path.
with deepest Gratitude,
