[upekkha100]

Hi Akvan. That makes sense! Thank you for that! See this is one of reasons why this forum is so valuable. If something is not explicitly stated/found in the Tipitaka, the next best option is to critically think and infer from the various information from the Tipitaka that is available to us. Discussions from all sides, working together to find the truth or get to the bottom of unclear topics. And that is one of the goals of Lal, PureDhamma website and this forum. I have not expressed it before, but I just want express my appreciation for Lal, SengKiat, Akvan and everyone here who have contributed greatly to improving my understanding and making concepts more clear. I thank you all!

Regarding the topic, it didn’t occur to me to question whether an anariya jhana is an anantariya punna kamma or not. It would make more sense that Ariya jhana due to magga phala, rather than an anariya jhana, being an anantariya punna kamma.

[upekkha100]

Agree with those points.

I’m interested in your view about this:
That if someone never does an anantariya papa kamma in their life, and gets into a jhanic state just once, that one time is enough to guarantee an immediate rebirth in brahma loka after death, regardless of whether they retain/lose that ability, and regardless of whether or not they die in a jhanic state.

[upekkha100]

Thanks for that Lal.

This post especially: Difference between a Wish and a Determination (Paramita) answered my question.

Particularly the following parts:
-“To become an Arahant one needs to make a commitment and maintain it over many, many lives. We all are likely to have made that commitment in one or more lives; of course we do not know. And if we had made such a commitment and have worked on it over many lives, it may be possible to fulfill it in this very life. Even otherwise, we can make a real effort to maintain that “paramita” and strengthen it.”

-“Some make firm determinations to become a deva, a brahma, an emperor, or just to be rich; there are millions of things that people wish for, and sometimes make firm determinations on. Some of them can come true in this lifetime itself, especially if that is a firm commitment coming from previous lives. Normally the word “paramita” is reserved for those commitments that target Nibbana. ”

-“In physics, there is a simple law that says, “every action has a reaction”. In Buddha Dhamma, there is an even more generalized law: when one keeps doing something, an invisible energy buildup occurs that will result in a kamma bhava(a potential energy) that will bring about a result (even a birth) of similar kind.”

[upekkha100]

@Christian sounds like an interesting theory!

@Lal
1) Is there a term for that tone of voice in the language of Abhidhamma?

2) Is that tone of voice enough to trigger Sotapanna stage or only the Sotapanna Anugami stage? Because I’d think the tone of voice is not he same as the energy of the javana citta.

From #1 in the post:
“Listening to Dhamma discourses (while reading is enough to get to Sotapanna Anugami stage, listening is necessary to attain the Sotapanna stage.”

From #3:
“Previously, I had stated that one could learn about Tilakkhana by reading these days. That is still true and one could become a Sōtapanna anugāmi by reading.

However, recently I came upon a dēsanā by the Waharaka Thēro which stated that a Sōtapanna anugāmi attains the Sōtapanna stage only while listening to a dēsanā by an Ariya (Noble person, i.e., one with at least the Sōtapanna stage). ”

Now I myself would not know for sure if reading is enough for the Sotapanna Anugami stage, as we will not find the direct answer to that from the Tipitaka either, because discourses back then were transmitted orally and not written down.

But if that is indeed true, a Sotapanna Anugami means a change in lineage from a puthujjana to an Ariya has been made. A Sotapanna Anugami, while not a Sotapanna, is still an Ariya. And is no longer on the mundane Path, but is now on the Noble Eightfold Path. A Sotapanna Anugami is destined/guaranteed to become a Sotapanna within this very same bhava. And a Sotapanna is destined/guaranteed for Nibbana within a maximum of 7 bhava.

I think an audio desana by an Ariya is like written information by an Ariya. Meaning that both the written information and audio desana by the Ariya can at most make someone a Sotapanna Anugami, but not a Sotapanna…that is IF the audio does not contain the javana citta energy.

If it turns out that audio can indeed somehow save the javana citta energy, that is a different story. In that case, I think it is possible that one can a become Sotapanna from audio.

[upekkha100]

So the recording has:
-the message of the Ariya embedded in it.
-however, it does not have the energy from the javana citta of the Ariya embedded in it.

But is it not that very energy from the javana citta from the Ariya that is needed to trigger magga phala citta(Sotapanna stage) in the listener, as per this quote from the post:
“Apparently, a Sōtadvāra citta vithi of an Ariya (during a dēsanā) has the necessary javana power to act as a trigger. ”

If the message of the Ariya is all one needs(without the javana citta energy of the Ariya), then would not reading also be sufficient to trigger Sotapanna magga phalla citta(because written information also has the message)?

To me, that Sotapanna stage requirement about listening to a desana from an Ariya does not translate to simply hearing the message. I’d think this hearing of a desana is special, unlike other hearing of desanas. What makes it special is the added bonus of the javana citta energy radiating from an Ariya’s mind. And that can only be experienced in person or at least close proximity in real time.

[upekkha100]

If someone becomes a Sotapanna from listening to a recorded desana by an Ariya:

1) Does the magga phala citta need to occur during the listening of that recorded desana?

2) Or can one become a Sotapanna long after listening to that recorded desana, like for example when one is contemplating on tilakkhana some time afterwards?

[upekkha100]

Hi Lvalio! Welcome to the forum!

You can read about that story of Nanda here:
Nanda Sutta

[upekkha100]

Yes I have read #14 and the links included there. I understand that the exact detailed working of kamma cannot be quantified or determined by anyone other than a Buddha, but we can get a general idea about the workings of kamma.

So I’ll use an extreme example:
1) X actually kills Y.
2) X helps someone kill Y.
3) X orders/instructs someone else to kill Y.
4) X here did not even lay a finger on Y, but is mentally glad about the killing of Y.

From the above, to me it would be clear that X would get worse kamma from doing #1 than doing #4.

This is of course assuming 2 things:
a) the target sentient being is the same in all 4 actions(in this example, the target sentient being is Y in each of the 4 actions).
b) the strength of intention of X in all 4 actions are also the same or at least similar(example: the dosa cetasika is strong in X’s mind in all 4 actions.)

If the target sentient being(Y) is the same in all 4 actions, X is doing the following
1) kaya kamma(miccha kammantha)
2) kaya kamma(miccha kammantha)
3) vaci kamma(miccha vaca)
4) vaci kamma(miccha sankappa)

As I read before, kaya kamma has more kammic weight than vaci kamma in general. In general kammantha would be more than vaca, and vaca would be more than sankappa.

In terms of anantariya kamma, #1 is the only action that will be considered the anatariya papa kamma. Whereas #2/3/4(even though these are also highly immoral)will not be anatariya papa kamma.

Same thing for good deeds. If X gave food to the Buddha, that would yield higher kammic weight than if X encouraged/instructed someone else to give food to the Buddha. This is again, assuming the alobha/adosa/karuna cetasika in X’s mind are all very strong(same/similar) in both of those actions.

So that is why I think the order that those 4 actions are listed to be a general indicator of kammic weight.

[upekkha100]

Lal said:
“Those latter 7 births were within the same deva realm. Of course, there is no gandhabba state or going into a womb in the deva realm, so when a deva dies — and born in the same realm — that deva seems to just to be born in a different “location”.

1) So that means just as a single human bhava has multiple human jathi within that bhava, same is the case for a deva bhava? Example: one single deva bhava can have 10 deva jathi within it?

2) Is the same true for a single brahma bhava, peta bhava, asura bhava, niraya bhava? Or does 1 brahma bhava equal to only 1 brahma jathi?

[upekkha100]

Lal said:
1) “In a way, what it does is to make the mind of the person receiving “to a better state” for cultivating those existing causes.”

2) “Receiving pattaidana can make their minds elevated to a better state for at least a short time. During that time, “samanantara” (suitable conditions) are present for that being to be able to “pull some good vipaka” from the “annantara”, i.e., from the kamma bhava.”

My questions:
1) Can those 2 quotes from above be explained via examples? Like let’s say someone(X)does pattidana, and it successfully reaches 2 receivers. A human(Y) and a peta(Z). Both Y and Z have the hetu(causes, good kamma beeja). When Y and Z successfully receive the pattidana, is that pattidana going to do anything to Y and Z’s good kamma beeja?

2) Or will the pattidana have no impact on Y and Z’s good kamma beeja. Rather, the only impact the pattidana will have is on the mindset of Y and Z, by elevating their mindsets?

[upekkha100]

From the Vedana post, Lal described niramisa dukha as:
“Sometimes, one gets a bit discouraged by not advancing “fast enough” on the Path. One thinks about “why am I not getting to the Sōtapanna stage?” or “Is there anything that I am missing in order to make progress?”, etc. ”

My question regarding niramisa dukha:
1) Does that above mindset have anything to do with the kukuccha cetasika?

2) Can this concern/worry be extended to other sentient beings? Like “why are others not becoming Sotapanna, or sadness about others not even knowing about Buddha Dhamma, and sadness about the reality that so many infinite beings will remain in sansara”?

3) Or would worrying and being sad about others not becoming Sotapanna and remaining in sansara actually be considered as domanassa(amisa dukha) instead of niramisa dukha?

[upekkha100]

Thanks for fixing the link. I’m going to run a test try. Let me see if it works:
Vēdanā and Samphassa Jā Vēdanā – More Than Just Feelings

Lal said:
“Amisa upakkha vedana is the “neutral feeling” felt by a normal human. It can be, and it is at most times, contaminated with avijja. One just does not know the “reality of that particular situation”. ”

I had wondered about the association of moha/avijja to an object that is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. I thought “why is that and how?”. Now it makes sense. Thanks for that Lal.

So an Arahant wouldn’t have niramisa sukha either?

[upekkha100]

Hi Yeos.

If I remember correctly, Lal had said there are two types of asuras. Those from the apayas and those from the deva loka.

In my opinion and according to my understanding, it is not any being from the lower realms/apayas. They have no power, they are helpless. They stay in their realm(especially niraya brings). So I do not believe there is any need to fear them, if anything, feel bad for the suffering they are going through right now. Rather, I think it is beings from the higher realms-deva loka, that have to do with that kind of magic. The beings people mistakenly think of as demons/devil in my opinion are devas. Devas have some inherent capabilities that humans are not equiped with because our human body kind of disables these abilities that our mental body(the gandabba) also inherently has.

Devas/Mara can possess people and shape-shift into different characters. From some suttas, you can get an idea that sometimes they use some of their inherent abilities(possessing humans, shape-shifting, etc) for mischievous actions at times, it is some sort of fun/play for them it seems, but of course they are earning bad kamma for these actions, one Dhammapada verse(I forget which one) even mentioned a bhikkhu who suffered a certain kamma vipaka in the current life for doing such pranks via his deva abilities in past life to two other Bhikkus.

I think there are some humans who might be aware of such devas, the devas interacted with them by making their presence known. These humans probably get enamored/impressed by the devas’ abilities. They might even literally think the devas are God/Gods thus the incorrect translation of deva as “god”. And because these humans crave special talents/abilities/fame/power/status themselves, these humans intentionally actually want/desire to be possessed by the devas, and maybe they think that doing certain rituals will invite the deva to do just that. When really no ritual is needed, because Mara has possessed many people according to the suttas, and these people didn’t do any rituals. It is possible the ritual can merely be their way of getting the attention of devas, and then inviting the devas to possess them. And it is also possible Mara/devas make promises of giving special abilities/status to these humans, but they make the humans do certain activities first-to me this sounds like a prank the devas are playing on humans. At least this is what I think, and is the conclusion I have come to when combining the various information from suttas/Buddhism and watching various youtube videos regarding “other” beings.

A few more points that some may find interesting:
-The word “genius” is supposedly related to “genie.” Genie might be related to the arabic word jinn. The word jinn in arabic also denotes these invisible beings who can possess/shape-shift. Genies grants wishes. Devas can give the impression of granting wishes.
-Mara is king of the sensual realm, a mortal deva himself, and most likely has matchless beauty and certain abilities due to his past good kamma. The devil in Christianity is Lucifer, he also supposedly has exceeding beauty and power, then became a fallen angel. Loki in Norse Mythology is the trickster god.
-The word “spirits” refers to many kinds of alcoholic drinks. Alcohol is most likely to turn off one’s Samma Sati, and when sati is off or low, people are more likely to engage in immorality, and also possibly more vulnerable to getting possessed by beings/”spirits”. Thus even more reason why Samma Sati is so important.

If you’re interested, the following videos might give you more of an idea. Especially if you watch them with the information from Buddhism in mind, things might make sense. Of course take everything with a grain of salt as not all can be certain to be 100% true, but they still have something useful to learn from.

1) https://youtu.be/-fq75Ax_kL0
2) https://youtu.be/2JCrx3LP78I
-About how those who didn’t have any or much talent for music suddenly became talented overnight.
-the saying “music of the gods/music from the heavens” takes on a clear new meaning after watching these videos.

3) https://youtu.be/Ko7RBI71rQs
Question/answer about Mara and other devas with such abilities starts from 15:11 and ends at 36:50.

[upekkha100]

^ And I’m sorry for the links appearing that way. I tried to follow the instructions posted in the General Information and Updates section on how to add a hyperlink, but for some reason a new window does not open for me and thus I can’t paste the copied link to the url slot.

[upekkha100]

Thanks for the new additions to that post Lal. Really appreciate it!

And that makes sense. Reminded me of the post on pabhassara citta:
Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavanga

Here is the quote from that post:
“Therefore, a “pabhassara citta” is that base state, or the pure state of a citta, BEFORE it goes through the 9 stages of contamination. It has only the 7 universal cetasika.

Each and every citta of a given person starts off as a pabhassara citta, but gets contaminated to varying degrees depending one’s personality or one’s advancement along the Path.”

My thinking:
Vedana starts off pure, not contaminated by tanha yet. At this stage vedana is not samphassa ja vedana yet.

Questions:
1) Is this initial uncontaminated vedana the amisa upekkha vedana?

2) Niramisa upekkha vedana is supposed to be the vedana experienced by Ariyas. Other than the anariya/Ariya aspect, what is the difference between amisa upekkha vedana and niramisa upekkha vedana?

3) What would the initial uncontaminated vedana that arises in a Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami be called? Would it be amisa upekkha or niramisa upekkha or something else?

4) Am I wrong to think that out of those 9 vedana, Arahants would have only 5 out of 9 of those vedana: sukha, dukha, upekkha, niramisa sukha, and niramisa upekkha vedana? I’d think they would have even eliminated the niramisa dukha vedana?

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