[upekkha100]

This site itself has many wise/good points that seems to be had made from inferring/contemplating/connecting the dots. Which were not from the Tipitaka. Yet points which would not necessarily contradict the Buddha’s message either. Points which I agree with.

There are many others too who have done the same through their own contemplation, connecting the dots and had realizations of their own.

People can have good points, but sometimes it is difficult to convey, and get it across in words, do justice to what they are trying to say. I struggle with this personally. Does not necessarily mean they are wrong.

I of course do not know the intention of those who are commenting, and it is even more difficult to discern when in writing, but I’ve seen a particular treatment be done on more than one occasion now, and did not say anything before, so I thought it’d be proper now to say:
There is no need to be repeatedly harsh with one person so much.

Hi Siebe. I agree with many of your points. I don’t want to put words in what Siebe is trying to say, this is in my words of what I understood from Siebe: that both bad deeds and good deeds by the anariya person(average person) stems from avijja?

Because in the Paticca Samupada cycles, whether it is punna kamma(meritorious deed) or apunna kamna(bad deeds), both extend rebirth process. Both actions are done while being ignorant of the total truth of the true nature of this world. Avijja paccaya sankhara.

And it is these actions, whether good or bad, when done repeatedly that make habits. Some do bad deeds habitually. Some do good deeds habitually. Regardless both are doing actions from the 6 puppet masters: lobha/dosa/moha and alobha/adosa/amoha. Whether good or bad, both are puppets of the 6 root causes of existence. Both are puppets of this world. Essentially anariyas are puppets of this world.

Arahant have removed all the root causes of existence, removed all the puppet masters. Is no longer a puppet of this world. Can not do sankhara dictated by any of the roots. Whatever wholesome action they do, it is from their pure minds( pabhassara citta).

[upekkha100]

In my opinion, the best strategy for sansara is:
1) Attain Sotapanna stage or any stage of Nibbana in this very life.

2) If can’t attain stages of Nibbana, then attain jhana so that one can increase the chance of a brahma bhava and maybe become Ariya as a brahma. Billions years of bliss and safety from apayas. Since brahmas have long lifespan, this increases the chance of possibly meeting the future Buddha as well(yes this is my wish haha), and become an Ariya after listening to a desana by him.

3) If can’t attain jhana, then be moral and do sankhara with all 3 good roots alobha/adosa/amoha to increase chances of a tihetuka human bhava.

4) In my opinion, if someone is not an Ariya, the deva realm sounds dangerous and scary. Deva loka would be my last aims. I’d only want to be reborn there if I am certain that I’m an Ariya. Even if one is a tihetuka deva, all the sensual pleasures would be too distracting and cause much tapa(heat in the mind) to cultivate the Path and attain Nibbana

The deva loka, while a safe vacation from the apayas, it sounds like a shiny trap towards the demise of one’s moral character. Sure it has all the tempting pleasures like in Hansel and Gretel, but I feel like most of the kamma beeja devas eventually start accumulating are not of wholesome quality, and under the right conditions these bad kamma beeja will not be the vipaka they would want.

Unless one is an Ariya or someone of extraordinarily strong character, it is hard for me to fathom how the average deva will not eventually get corrupted by the excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures, and not become arrogant, jealous and down right depraved/immoral like some yakkhas/asuras and Mara.

Of course there are variety of devas(good, bad, in between, dvihetuka, tihetuka, and numerous Ariyas as well) just like there are a variety of humans. But this is my general perception of that realm as a whole.

[upekkha100]

Lal wrote:
“If I have stated that alobha, adosa, amoha will also be removed at Nibbana, please let me know.”

From the following two posts:
The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma – Introduction

From #1:
“Causes are numerous, but the root causes are six: greed, hate, ignorance, non-greed, non-hate, and non-ignorance. When all such causes are removed, Nibbana results. Since it does not arise due to causes, Nibbana is permanent. One actually strives to remove greed, hate, and ignorance, which are “san”. When this is done, other three causes are automatically removed. This is the key to Nibbana, as laid out in the Noble Eightfold Path.”

Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbana)

From #5:
1) “When  one’s paññā becomes optimum at the Arahant stage, all six root causes would have been removed. ”

2)”Therefore, all six root causes lead to the continuation of the rebirth process. “

[upekkha100]

Lal said:
“Then one would be AUTOMATICALLY doing most deeds with panna or with understanding of the anicca nature. Then one would be doing more deeds with metta, karuna,mudita, upekkha.The higher the understanding, the more power those thoughts will have. ”

Buddhas and Arahants have eradicated not only all of the asobhana cetasika(that stem from the 3 bad roots) but all of the sobhana cetasika(that stem from the 3 good roots) as well.

Panna, mudita, karuna are sobhana cetasika.

Yet Buddhas and Arahants not only have panna/mudita/karuna, but these are at incomparable levels too(meaning: their level of karuna can’t be compared to the boundless karuna of even a brahma for example).

Question:
If they no longer have the 3 good roots nor any of the sobhana cetasika, where does their panna/mudita/karuna stem from? Surely not rooted in anything, but as a result of a purity(absence of all 6 roots)?

[upekkha100]

The parts about kamma pata, pavutti kamma bhava, and uppatthi kamma bhava in this desana was very interesting.

Lal, in the future if you have the free time, can you consider writing a bit more in debth about these concepts(kamma pata, pavutti kamma bhava, and uppatthi kamma bhava).

Questions:
1) Does pavutti kamma bhava mean one will get the vipaka only within this current bhava we are in right now? Or does it also involve vipaka in future bhava that will come after this current bhava?

2) Does uppatthi kamma bhava mean a vipaka that is an entirely brand new bhava/existence?

[upekkha100]

y not said:
“Like yourself, I feel that Brahmas have gone beyond sex altogether — in the physical, mental and emotional sense ,all,”

Yes I agree with this. And that is why I think androgynous is not the best word to describe brahmas. As androgynous means the merging of both genders. Whereas brahmas are the absence of both genders.

[upekkha100]

Hi Akvan. That makes sense! Thank you for that! See this is one of reasons why this forum is so valuable. If something is not explicitly stated/found in the Tipitaka, the next best option is to critically think and infer from the various information from the Tipitaka that is available to us. Discussions from all sides, working together to find the truth or get to the bottom of unclear topics. And that is one of the goals of Lal, PureDhamma website and this forum. I have not expressed it before, but I just want express my appreciation for Lal, SengKiat, Akvan and everyone here who have contributed greatly to improving my understanding and making concepts more clear. I thank you all!

Regarding the topic, it didn’t occur to me to question whether an anariya jhana is an anantariya punna kamma or not. It would make more sense that Ariya jhana due to magga phala, rather than an anariya jhana, being an anantariya punna kamma.

[upekkha100]

Agree with those points.

I’m interested in your view about this:
That if someone never does an anantariya papa kamma in their life, and gets into a jhanic state just once, that one time is enough to guarantee an immediate rebirth in brahma loka after death, regardless of whether they retain/lose that ability, and regardless of whether or not they die in a jhanic state.

[upekkha100]

Thanks for that Lal.

This post especially: Difference between a Wish and a Determination (Paramita) answered my question.

Particularly the following parts:
-“To become an Arahant one needs to make a commitment and maintain it over many, many lives. We all are likely to have made that commitment in one or more lives; of course we do not know. And if we had made such a commitment and have worked on it over many lives, it may be possible to fulfill it in this very life. Even otherwise, we can make a real effort to maintain that “paramita” and strengthen it.”

-“Some make firm determinations to become a deva, a brahma, an emperor, or just to be rich; there are millions of things that people wish for, and sometimes make firm determinations on. Some of them can come true in this lifetime itself, especially if that is a firm commitment coming from previous lives. Normally the word “paramita” is reserved for those commitments that target Nibbana. ”

-“In physics, there is a simple law that says, “every action has a reaction”. In Buddha Dhamma, there is an even more generalized law: when one keeps doing something, an invisible energy buildup occurs that will result in a kamma bhava(a potential energy) that will bring about a result (even a birth) of similar kind.”

[upekkha100]

@Christian sounds like an interesting theory!

@Lal
1) Is there a term for that tone of voice in the language of Abhidhamma?

2) Is that tone of voice enough to trigger Sotapanna stage or only the Sotapanna Anugami stage? Because I’d think the tone of voice is not he same as the energy of the javana citta.

From #1 in the post:
“Listening to Dhamma discourses (while reading is enough to get to Sotapanna Anugami stage, listening is necessary to attain the Sotapanna stage.”

From #3:
“Previously, I had stated that one could learn about Tilakkhana by reading these days. That is still true and one could become a Sōtapanna anugāmi by reading.

However, recently I came upon a dēsanā by the Waharaka Thēro which stated that a Sōtapanna anugāmi attains the Sōtapanna stage only while listening to a dēsanā by an Ariya (Noble person, i.e., one with at least the Sōtapanna stage). ”

Now I myself would not know for sure if reading is enough for the Sotapanna Anugami stage, as we will not find the direct answer to that from the Tipitaka either, because discourses back then were transmitted orally and not written down.

But if that is indeed true, a Sotapanna Anugami means a change in lineage from a puthujjana to an Ariya has been made. A Sotapanna Anugami, while not a Sotapanna, is still an Ariya. And is no longer on the mundane Path, but is now on the Noble Eightfold Path. A Sotapanna Anugami is destined/guaranteed to become a Sotapanna within this very same bhava. And a Sotapanna is destined/guaranteed for Nibbana within a maximum of 7 bhava.

I think an audio desana by an Ariya is like written information by an Ariya. Meaning that both the written information and audio desana by the Ariya can at most make someone a Sotapanna Anugami, but not a Sotapanna…that is IF the audio does not contain the javana citta energy.

If it turns out that audio can indeed somehow save the javana citta energy, that is a different story. In that case, I think it is possible that one can a become Sotapanna from audio.

[upekkha100]

So the recording has:
-the message of the Ariya embedded in it.
-however, it does not have the energy from the javana citta of the Ariya embedded in it.

But is it not that very energy from the javana citta from the Ariya that is needed to trigger magga phala citta(Sotapanna stage) in the listener, as per this quote from the post:
“Apparently, a Sōtadvāra citta vithi of an Ariya (during a dēsanā) has the necessary javana power to act as a trigger. ”

If the message of the Ariya is all one needs(without the javana citta energy of the Ariya), then would not reading also be sufficient to trigger Sotapanna magga phalla citta(because written information also has the message)?

To me, that Sotapanna stage requirement about listening to a desana from an Ariya does not translate to simply hearing the message. I’d think this hearing of a desana is special, unlike other hearing of desanas. What makes it special is the added bonus of the javana citta energy radiating from an Ariya’s mind. And that can only be experienced in person or at least close proximity in real time.

[upekkha100]

If someone becomes a Sotapanna from listening to a recorded desana by an Ariya:

1) Does the magga phala citta need to occur during the listening of that recorded desana?

2) Or can one become a Sotapanna long after listening to that recorded desana, like for example when one is contemplating on tilakkhana some time afterwards?

[upekkha100]

Hi Lvalio! Welcome to the forum!

You can read about that story of Nanda here:
Nanda Sutta

[upekkha100]

Yes I have read #14 and the links included there. I understand that the exact detailed working of kamma cannot be quantified or determined by anyone other than a Buddha, but we can get a general idea about the workings of kamma.

So I’ll use an extreme example:
1) X actually kills Y.
2) X helps someone kill Y.
3) X orders/instructs someone else to kill Y.
4) X here did not even lay a finger on Y, but is mentally glad about the killing of Y.

From the above, to me it would be clear that X would get worse kamma from doing #1 than doing #4.

This is of course assuming 2 things:
a) the target sentient being is the same in all 4 actions(in this example, the target sentient being is Y in each of the 4 actions).
b) the strength of intention of X in all 4 actions are also the same or at least similar(example: the dosa cetasika is strong in X’s mind in all 4 actions.)

If the target sentient being(Y) is the same in all 4 actions, X is doing the following
1) kaya kamma(miccha kammantha)
2) kaya kamma(miccha kammantha)
3) vaci kamma(miccha vaca)
4) vaci kamma(miccha sankappa)

As I read before, kaya kamma has more kammic weight than vaci kamma in general. In general kammantha would be more than vaca, and vaca would be more than sankappa.

In terms of anantariya kamma, #1 is the only action that will be considered the anatariya papa kamma. Whereas #2/3/4(even though these are also highly immoral)will not be anatariya papa kamma.

Same thing for good deeds. If X gave food to the Buddha, that would yield higher kammic weight than if X encouraged/instructed someone else to give food to the Buddha. This is again, assuming the alobha/adosa/karuna cetasika in X’s mind are all very strong(same/similar) in both of those actions.

So that is why I think the order that those 4 actions are listed to be a general indicator of kammic weight.

[upekkha100]

Lal said:
“Those latter 7 births were within the same deva realm. Of course, there is no gandhabba state or going into a womb in the deva realm, so when a deva dies — and born in the same realm — that deva seems to just to be born in a different “location”.

1) So that means just as a single human bhava has multiple human jathi within that bhava, same is the case for a deva bhava? Example: one single deva bhava can have 10 deva jathi within it?

2) Is the same true for a single brahma bhava, peta bhava, asura bhava, niraya bhava? Or does 1 brahma bhava equal to only 1 brahma jathi?

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