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Taking into account the following points from Lal and another previous comment:
-Viññāna means “without ñāna” or without wisdom:
-Viññāna also means “defiled consciousness”;
-vi = defiled, nana = wisdom (vinnana)
-It is understood that the vinnana of an Arahant is pure or undefiled.
-when one attains the Arahanthood, one will have “undefiled or pure consciousness”.So vinnana means:
-Without wisdom
-Defiled consciousness-Yet an Arahant is the embodiment of wisdom.
-Yet an Arahant has undefiled consciousness.So how can an Arahant have vinnana?
To say an Arahant has vinnana, is equivalent to saying:
-Arahant is without wisdom
-Arahant has defiled consciousness“Vinnana of an Arahant” is a contradiction. Like saying dry water.
For example:
If vinnana is defiled consciousness, it can be compared to a dirty cloth.
An anariya’s vinnana(dirty cloth) is unclean.To say an Arahant’s vinnana is “undefiled” is like saying: an Arahant’s dirty cloth is clean.
To me the following would make more sense:
-An anariya’s consciousness is vinnana.
-An Arahant’s consciousness is just nana(minus the vi).
-Goal of purifying the mind would be to eventually change one’s vinnana to nana.-An anariya’s consciousness is defiled. Without wisdom. Anariyas do not experience things as they are, not see true nature of reality. Rather an anariya labels experiences as the following 3 ways:
1) good because they like it based on lobha. Generate amisa sukha vedana.
2) bad because they dislike it based on dosa. Generate amisa dukha vedana.
3) neutral. neither like nor dislike based on moha(delusion, a defilement). Generate
amisa upekkha.-An Arahant’s consciousness is undefiled. If they have only nana rather than vinnana that means with wisdom(because nana means wisdom). They know the true nature of reality. They do not label experiences as “good/bad/neutral based on moha”, but they experience things as they are, see things as neutral, but their neutrality is different from that of an anariya in that an Arahant’s neutrality is not based on moha. Their neutrality is niramisa upekkha vedana, based on wisdom from their pure undefiled minds.
Lal wrote:
“Without incorporating previous memories, an Arahant will not be able to recall past memories, etc.”Recalling past memories: is that not done with the manasikara cetasika? Manasikara cetasika is part of the 7 universal cetasika that make up a pure citta before it degrades to vinnana. Then it would seem an Arahant would not need to degrade to neither a bad vinnana nor good vinnana to recall back memories. It is already done in the first 7 universal cetasika of a pure citta.
And I’d think identifying is also done by the sanna cetasika(also initially part of the 7 universal cetasika of a pure citta) and also at the manasan stage(which comes before vinnana).
Lal wrote:
“and thus is still called vinnana and vinnanakkhandha (it is understood that for an Arahant those are undefiled).”If that is the case then there are many instances at this site that seem to make that point unclear.
For example:
Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Stages of a ThoughtFrom #1:
“I cringe when I see some online comments even say viññāna is Nibbāna. It is exactly the opposite: One attains Nibbāna when one gets rid of viññāna, or more precisely when one purifies one’s mind to the extent that a thought does not contaminate to the viññāna stage. “9 Stages of a citta. Going from pure to contaminated:
1) citta
2) mano
3) manasan
4) hadayan
5) pandaran
6) mana indriyan
7) manayatana
8) vinnana
9) vinnanakkhandha-Vinnana and vinnanakkhanda come at stages 8 and 9.
-An Arahant’s citta does not go beyond nor contaminate beyond stage 3: manasan.So how can an Arahant have any vinnana?
Do I have this correct:
1) Sobhana cetasika lead to good vinnana.2) An Arahant still has sobhana cetasikas.
3) A good vinnana is not contaminated.
4) An Arahant still has good vinnana.
I think the revision that you have made in the The Grand Unified Theory of Dhammā – Introduction
post is incorrect. I think what you had written before the revision was correct.Before the revision:
A) “One actually strives to remove greed, hate, and ignorance, which are “san”. When this is done, other three causes are automatically removed. ”After the revision:
B) “The three good roots non-greed, non-hate, and non-ignorance are not removed, but the CONDITIONS (tanhā and upādāna) for them to lead to rebirth are removed at that time. Therefore, one will not be reborn even in the “good realms”.Your revision(B) says the 3 good roots are not removed. The sutta, AN 3.34, says that the 3 good roots are removed. That sutta matches A(what you had written before the revision).
Hi Lal.
I don’t know if the entirety of my last reply is appearing. But I highlighted a part of sutta AN 3.34 and how it matches what you had written before: about how alobha/adosa/amoha is gone after lobha/dosa/moha is removed first. Can you address that? And also specifically address that part of the sutta that I highlighted?
I’ll give my points as to why even a good vinnana is contaminated and why an Arahant can’t have any sobhana cetasika in another reply later.
But before that, I want to highlight the sutta Siebe mentioned(my thanks to Siebe as well for sharing this sutta.)
AN 3.34:
“(1) “Any kamma, bhikkhus, fashioned through non-greed, born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originated by non-greed, is abandoned when greed has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising.
(2) “Any kamma fashioned through non-hatred, born of non-hatred, caused by non-hatred, originated by non-hatred, is abandoned when hatred has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising.
(3) “Any kamma fashioned through non-delusion, born of non-delusion, caused by non-delusion, originated by non-delusion, is abandoned when delusion has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising.”
^ That matches what you had written before the revision:
“One actually strives to remove greed, hate, and ignorance, which are “san”. When this is done, other three causes are automatically removed. ”That is a great English translation of this sutta.
This is the first time I’m come across that translation. It makes anatta that much more clear!
Tien wrote:
“Because you are not in control, you cannot just compel rupa (or any of the pancakkandha) to your own satisfaction.With the true sense of atta/anatta as ‘in your control’/’out of your control’. You can read the whole sutta and do bhavana on it, will definitely yield great result.”
Yes this has helped a lot. Personally for me, even before doing any bhavana on it, just from seeing it as in control/not in control of rupa gave me a great mental boost.
Tien, thank you so much for highlighting and sharing this sutta!! It deserves emphasis like this.
Here are few quotes from various posts:
1) “Depending on the combinations of cetasika that arise with citta, there will be 89 (or 121) types contaminated citta (or viññāṇa) that can arise. This will become clear as we discuss further. ”
2) “Consciousness (viññāṇa) discussed in this section does NOT take account the fact that consciousness of any living being (other than an Arahant) is contaminated by defilements. This our awareness is not pure; it is like looking though a foggy window ”
3) ” However, the citta of a sentient being gets “contaminated” by other cetasika as soon as it arises. Within the lifetime of a citta (which is less than a billionth of a second), it progressively gets contaminated by “good” or “bad” cetasika, and this happens in nine stages.”
4) “As discussed in “Citta and Cetasika – How Viññāṇa (Consciousness) Arises”, it is those additional cetasika that provide “color” to a citta: if a set of “good cetasika” arise with the citta it becomes a
“good thought” or a “good viññāṇa”; if it is a set of “bad cetasika” , then the thought or the viññāṇa
is bad (those cetasika do not mix). ”Vinnana is after the contamination of a set of citta correct?
There is dosa vinnana.
There is karuna vinnana.
Dosa vinnana has one of the 3 bad roots/causes.
Karuna vinnana has one of the 3 good roots/causes.
Both are contaminated.
Both happen beyond the manasan stage.An Arahant’s citta does not go beyond the manasan stage.
So how can an Arahant still have the 3 good causes/roots.
How can an Arahant still have the sobhana cetasika at maximum levels?Knowing the answer to the above, I’d like to make a case for a thought I had:
I think there are 2 sets of panna/karuna/metta/mudita/upekkha.One set is a result of:
-temporarily suppressing lobha/dosa/moha and maximizing alobha/adosa/amoha.
-The kind a brahma would have(hence brahmavihara).
-Are the anariya version.
-Are cetasikas.
-Are contaminated.
-Are based in avijja.The other set as a result of:
-permanently removing all 6 roots: lobha/dosa/moha and alobha/adosa/amoha.
-A result of a pure radiant “luminous” mind.
-Result of pabhassara citta.
-This panna/karuna/metta/mudita/upekkha is the default state of the mind before it gets contaminated with the 6 roots/6 defilements/6 san.
-Panna/karuna/metta/mudita/upekkha is the natural state of the uncontaminated mind.
-The Ariya version(especially that of an Arahant).
-Are not cetasikas.
-Are uncontaminated.
-Are not based in avijja.1) Pabhassara citta= pure mind
2) Asobhana cetasika= pure mind now contaminated with 3 bad roots
3) Sobhana cetasika= pure mind now contaminated with 3 good rootsUsing a similar example used at this site:
1) glass of pure water
2) Add mud to it and it will no longer be pure.
3) Add gems to it, the water will still no longer be in it’s original pure default/natural state.The mud is dirty/ugly like asobhana cetasika(asobhana means not beautiful). If it enters a thought, the thought is no longer pure, it is ugly/unwholesome.
While the gems are good and “pretty/beautiful” like sobhana cetasika(sobhana means beautiful right?), if they enter a thought, this too is no longer pure. Beautiful yes, but not pure.
1) Pabhassara citta= Pure water. Original default/natural state.
2) Asobhana cetasika= mud
3) Sobhana cetasika= gemsGoodness/wholesomeness/morality is the default/natural state of the uncontaminated mind. It does not need the sobhana cetasika to be good. An anariya needs the sobhana cetasika to be good and to do good. An Arahant does not. This is why what was written before the revision made much more sense to me: “One actually strives to remove greed, hate, and ignorance, which are “san”. When this is done, other three causes are automatically removed. ”
I just need to back this up with something from the Tipitaka. The best I have is the
Pabhassara Sutta for now.“Luminous, monks, is the mind.And it is defiled by incoming defilements.”
Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements.”Panna/metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha is the default “luminous” state of the uncontaminated mind. Goodness/morality is the default “luminous” state of the uncontaminated mind.
y not said:
“Has anyone else experienced this?”Yes I’ve had these. But I am pretty sure I am not a Sotapanna.
These breakthroughs, are they not same as epiphanies/sudden realizations/aha moments/eureka moments. These realizations are not exclusive to Ariyas. Numerouss people have these. Even people outside of Buddha Dhamma. Some of these realizations are mundane(like a scientist or inventor suddenly realizing of a cure or invention)and some are spiritual(like humans who develop psychic abilities realizing and experiencing for themselves realms that are higher than the human realm). And then there are transcendent Ariya breakthroughs/realizations relating to Tilakkhana and grasping the true nature of all of reality, about both the material world and spiritual world, all 31 realms.
Even anariya can have panna. Like people who have attained jhanas, yogis, and brahmas. I’ve noticed even seemingly “regular” people who do not seem that spiritual just exude wisdom, they just seem different from others. If I had to guess, tihetuka people. Though this panna is not the same as the panna of an Ariya. It is mundane anariya panna vs transcendent Ariya panna. Mundane panna is temporary, can be reduced or lost in future lives whereas the transcendent Ariya panna is permanent, will only increase and never be lost.
To me highest priority is attaining the stages of Nibbana. But I think one can follow the Path and still wisely make time for exploring other knowledge. Especially if that knowledge greatly complements Buddha Dhamma as Lal said.
Hi Nikita. I’m so glad you brought this up. I’m very interested to know where it is located as well. And I agree, I think it is the pineal gland too.
People with psychic abilities, devas and brahmas can have telepathic abilities. Can read the minds of others and humans. And devas/brahmas have bird’s eye view of humanity, can sense and see things we can’t, might even know more about us than we do about ourselves. So I would not be surprised if at least these people with abinnha powers, devas, and rupi brahmas would know where the mana indriya is.
And I think modern science has found the mana indriya too and are possibly not being totally transparent yet.
Technological telepathy(thought reading, dream viewing) is already here at varying degrees. I personally think thought transmitting as well.
Otherwise how do they explain the following:
Articles
1) Scientists ‘read dreams’ using brain scans2) Japanese scientists just used A.I. to read minds and it’s amazing
3) Facebook literally wants to read your thoughts
4)Mark Zuckerberg says the future of communication is telepathy. Here’s how that would actually work.
Facebook creator Mark Zukerberg quote:
“One day, I believe we’ll be able to send full rich thoughts to each other directly using technology,” Zuckerberg wrote in response to a question about what’s next for Facebook. “You’ll just be able to think of something and your friends will immediately be able to experience it too.” ”5) Facebook gives peek inside unit studying brain-to-text technology
“Facebook Inc on Wednesday pulled aside the curtain on a secretive unit headed by a former chief of the Pentagon’s research arm, disclosing that the social media company is studying ways for people to communicate by thought and touch. ”
” One example of Building 8’s work so far, Dugan said, was an attempt to improve technology that allows people to type words using their minds.
“It sounds impossible, but it’s closer than you may realize,” Dugan said.
6) Facebook has 60 people working on how to read your mind
“Facebook is looking at using optical imaging – using lasers to capture changes in the properties of neurons as they fire – to glean words straight from our brain before we say them. If these signals can be read, they can be transmitted silently to other people. “
Do I have this correct:
Before the revision:
1) an Arahant would have none of the 6 root causes of existence.
2) 3 Good causes would have been automatically removed AFTER removing the 3 bad causes.After the revision:
1) Only the 3 bad causes of existence are removed.
2) The 3 good causes of existence remain. They still have the 3 good causes of existence. And are at their maximum too. However, the conditions are removed. Hence why no bad rebirth nor good rebirth will emerge because the Arahant will not upadana neither the bad kamma beeja nor upadana the good kamma beeja?The revision states:
“The three good roots non-greed, non-hate, and non-ignorance are not removed, but the CONDITIONS (tanhā and upādāna) for them to lead to rebirth are removed at that time. Therefore, one will not be reborn even in the “good realms.”
As I’ve learned, there is a difference between cause and condition. They are not the same. One needs both for the result/fruit. Cannot just have the cause and expect the result; need the condition as well. Cannot just have the condition and expect the result; need the cause as well.
Cause+no condition=no result
No cause+ condition= no result
Cause+condition=resultSeed + no (nutrients/sun/water)= no fruit
No seed+ (nutrients/sun/water)= no fruit
Seed+(nutrients/sun/water)= fruitIn the Second Noble Truth, tanha is said to be the cause.
In Paticca Samupada tanha paccaya upadana step, tanha is the condition.
Question:
Is tanha the cause or condition? Or both depending on the situation?Thanks for bringing attention to that sutta again Lvalio.
I’m curious myself.
English:
“Wandering for alms — weak, leaning on a staff, with trembling limbs — I fell down right there on the ground. Seeing the drawbacks of the body, my mind was then set free. ”In Pali it is:
“Vīrā vīrehi dhammehi,
bhikkhunī bhāvitindriyā;
Dhāreti antimaṃ dehaṃ,
jetvā māraṃ savāhinin”ti ”That sutta implies one of the stages of Nibbana was attained without listening to a desana by an Ariya. There are other instances like that in the Tipitaka. But they were for the higher stages of Nibbana after the Sotapanna stage(Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant). However, the numerous cases of beings attainting the Sotapanna stage was AFTER listening to a desana by the Buddha or another Ariya.
It is important to know what is meant by:
“my mind was then set free” in that sutta.Question is: did she attain the Sotapanna stage or Arahant stage?
I could be wrong, but if I had to guess, I’d think it’d be one of the higher stages beyond the Sotapanna stage.In short:
An anariya and Sotapanna Anugami needs the trigger from an Ariya to become a Sotapanna.An Anagami does not need the trigger from an Ariya to become an Arahant. They can do that on their own.
To be more detailed:
To me it seems the anariya on the mundane Path and the Sotapanna Anugami have the causes to get magga phala(fruit/result) but need the conditions(trigger by the javana citta energy of an Ariya) to actually transition to becoming an Ariya/Sotapanna.As it was said by Lal before, after one becomes a Sotapanna: a Sotapanna, Sakadagami and Anagami do not need that trigger(desana by an Ariya ) to advance to higher stages. They can do it on their own. It seems that trigger is only needed by the anariya on the mundane Path and needed by the Sotapanna Anugami. That trigger is needed only initially.
