[upekkha100]

Y not, thank you for compiling the info on issa.

Your posts got me thinking that I may have been incorrectly using these two words: envy/jealousy all this time. I have interchangeably used them most of my life, thinking they’re synonyms, not knowing there is a difference.

So it seems a bit clearer that Sotapanna would not have envy.

Questions:
1) Sotapanna has no envy, but what about jealousy? Would a Sotapanna have that?

2) Competitiveness(wanting to defeat others, win against others, one-upping others) comes from envy(issa) or asmi mana? If from envy, then a Sotapanna would have eliminated the tendency of competitiveness as well right? But if competitiveness stems from asmi mana, then that would mean competitiveness would be eliminated only at the Arahant stage.

[upekkha100]

Akvan wrote:
“So you can listen to their deshanas on youtube or on their sites. I can share some links of such deshanas/theros in English and Sinhala if you are interested. ”

Yes, please share a list of English desanas that you think would be helpful. That would be great! Thanks Akvan!

firewns:
Thank you for sharing those two suttas. You are a miracle. Just what I needed see.

Those suttas are referring to the saddha of anariyas right? Not the aveccappasāda(unwavering saddha) of Ariyas. One can have strong saddha in one life and lose it in future lives if one is anariya. But if one ends their bhava with genuine saddha, even if they are anariya, this increases the chance to be reborn in fortunate realms?

[upekkha100]

Tien thank you for that detailed info!

When I get the time later(today or tomorrow), I’d like to share my personal strategy/plan to reduce kama raga that is customized/suited for me. I’d like your input and advise. I value your posts. And of course welcome the thoughts/opinions of others who are trying to do this as well.

[upekkha100]

Hi firewns. Thank you for that. Clearly my tapa was high when I came to this topic, your posts had a calming effect on me, your metta level must be high, it tranquilized me haha. Appreciate that friend.

The following is going to be long, and I apologize for the length. I don’t have others I can share this with, and the PureDhamma community feels like family, so I feel I should explain my reason for wanting to attain jhana, because I keep seeing the reply of “one does not need jhana in order to attain magga phala”. I’m aware of this. I am not trying to cultivate jhana for this purpose. There is one significant primary reason I want this, and also a lesser secondary reason.

Before I explain those 2 motivations, I think I should make clear my number one goal is to attain the Sotapanna stage in this very life. It has been since I officially entered the world of Buddha Dhamma in 2016. So it has been about 3 years of me following/practising the Path and learning/trying to understand the Dhamma.

But in order to attain the Sotapanna stage, simply following the Path and learning/reading Dhamma is not enough. One NEEDS to LISTEN to a desana by an Ariya. I feel like this point should be emphasized more on this site, because for the longest time I was under the incorrect impression that one could become a Sotapanna just by READING the material. And I think many others here are or were under the same incorrect impression. I don’t think one can even become a Sotapanna Anugami just via reading(unless I am mistaken, I don’t think the Tipitaka even mentions how one would become a Sotapanna Anugami. Tipitaka was orally transmitted back then so I doubt the Tipitaka would have said that one can become Sotapanna Anugami via reading.)

I wish reading allowed this feat, but that is not the case. I’ve noticed things and rules are precise in Buddha Dhamma. It is not random nor arbitrary nor some meaningless zen gibberish to impress/confuse people with a profound saying. The Buddha would not have said that listening to a desana is a requirement for Sotapanna stage if it was arbitrary. It is not, there is a significant reason why it is a requirement. As Buddha Dhamma teaches, nothing can come out of nothing. Every effect/result has a cause. In order for a result/effect to come, one needs BOTH the cause and the conditions. Like in order to get a fruit one would need an fruit seed AND the right conditions(fertile soil via nutrients/water/sun) for the fruit(result/effect) to bear. The 4 stages of enlightenment are magga phala. Phala means fruit(result/effect). Sotapanna stage is the fruit/result of something. It cannot come to be randomly, arbitrarily. Without causes and conditions. This too needs the causes/conditions or seeds/nutrients and fertile soil. So if Sotapanna stage is the fruit, what are the seeds and conditions?

From contemplating the info here and few suttas, listening to the desana by the Ariya is the seed. The Ariya energy from their desana being implanted/seeded in our minds. Our minds are the soil. Striving/sila/kusala/Anapana/Satipatthana/following the Path are the conditions(nutrients/sun/water) for that seed so that it can be in the fertile ground most conducive to eventually grow/result into a fruit(magga phala, or Sotapanna stage). Now it is no longer just a seed, but the fruit. Sotapanna stage is like the young underripe fruit. This underripe fruit would keep growing, eventually this fruit completes matures and becomes ripe at the Arahant stage.

The main reason I’m interested in attaining jhana is because it is a backup plan. What if this is my last jati of my human bhava. I have no idea where my next destination will be. It could be the apayas. There is no guarantee I will become Sotapanna in this very life. In case I don’t, I will have nothing to guarantee my safety from an unfortunate realm. Besides attaining magga phala, no activity exists for securing/guaranteeing the human/deva realm, besides deva realm just seems like a scary trap. Fortunately, an activity to secure or at least increase chance for brahma realm exists: and that is jhana or cultivating high metta, if one could sustain this through the entire bhava. If I attain jhana, I will have a higher chance of being reborn a brahma. Being reborn in a fortunate realm. I will have a safety net, something to fall back on, in case I don’t become a Sotapanna in this life. And there is a high chance/probability I won’t.

The reason for why I think I will most likely not become a Sotapanna in this life being: the scarcity of Ariyas in this day and age.

Now if I were in the Indian subcontinent during the time of the Buddha, I would have obviously had the possibility of a higher chance of the blessing/luxury/privilege of being able to hear a desana by the Buddha himself or other Ariyas. Thanks to the Buddha’s appearance, Ariyas and Arahants were abundant during that time. But that is not the case today. The Buddha is not here today. And I believe that compared to those times, there is a scarcity of Ariyas in these present days. It is not as if I have access to an Ariya. Thus do not have easy access to listening to a desana by an Ariya that is needed to become a Sotapanna either. Even if I do, I would not even be able to be 100% sure whether they are Ariya or not.

In addition, I do not think recordings of desanas fulfill that requirement to become a Sotapanna. I have great doubt they would work or count. I do not think recording would have enough of a strong javana power that is equal to the javana power that would be radiated from a desana heard in person. I do not think recordings would implant the seed in my mind successfully.

If recordings could do such a feat, it would have been fortunate for us if the devas(who have powers we don’t, and most likely advanced technology we don’t) could have given the gift of a recording device and recorded a desana by the Buddha. Then the future generation would have a desana to listen to by the Buddha himself, and we would have this recording to use as the seed in our minds to attain the Sotapanna stage.

Attaining the Sotapanna stage is not an insignificant goal. I do not take it lightly. Thus I do not want to risk it nor take a chance by just relying on recordings. In case they do not work nor provide the necessary requirement to attain the Sotapanna stage, I want to be safe and listen to a desana in person. To accomplish this, I have already requested the organizers of Venerable Wallasmuelle’s desana tour to visit the USA and my state so that I’d be able to listen to a desana in person. Thankfully I was told they are planning on doing the desana tour in USA.

^ So I believe I have taken the initial necessary steps to increase my chances of attaining the Sotapanna stage for anyone who misunderstood me and may have thought this is my secondary goal, and jhana is my first goal. That is not the case. It is the reverse.

In short:
#1 main goal: Sotapanna stage in this very life.
#2 secondary goal: attaining jhana to increase the chances of being reborn in a fortunate realm-the brahma realm, as a backup plan/safety net in case I do not become a Sotapanna in this life/bhava.

[upekkha100]

Akvan wrote:
“So in my opinion it would be of more benefit to strive to attain maggha pala rather than jhana.”

I agree. But why can’t one do both? Strive for magga phala and cultivate jhana? Brahma realm is one of the best states to be in to attain magga phala, because their minds are very pure(low in greed, hatred, delusion).

I personally think marriage and having children are one the biggest obstacles/hindrances and risks to the Path, as was clearly implied if not said directly in the Tipitaka numerous times. But I don’t go around preaching or discouraging others to not get married or to not have children. As long as it is not immoral/unwholesome/unhealthy/harmful/dangerous to anyone, it is their life, their choice(I consider marriage/children as huge potential obstacles but not unwholesome). Who am I to control other people? There are people who can remain married, have children, indulge in sensual pleasures yet still follow the Path successfully, and even attain magga phala, and I salute these people. Whether it be anariya laypeople, Sotapannas or Sakadagamis. This shows that many things in sansara can be potential obstacles/risks/hindrances to the Path, it is how one uses it. One can have a knife: one can use it to hurt others or rescue someone tied up with a rope.

So out of all the possible hindrances/obstacles that exist in Sansara, it is puzzling to me that people would try to discourage some of the most wholesome activities(like jhana), activities the Buddha even encouraged.

When people are excessively controlling of other peoples lives/behavior/activity, this makes me think they have a severe case of atta sanna. Adamant about controlling what others do or how others behave. We have to accept we can’t mold and control what choices others make nor how they behave. Advise with good intention is fine, but then this too could risk becoming unwholesome.

It seems to displease Christian, y not and perhaps Akvan, when people are trying to cultivate something like brahma level metta or jhana? If that is something you are not doing nor is it your goal that is fine, but please just because you are not aiming for this, try not to discourage others from something the Buddha clearly was not against. Otherwise it seems like a case of “do as I do, believe as I do, accept as I do, and behave as I do”—>control issues/atta sanna issues. The Buddha never coerced nor forced.

The Buddha clearly encouraged people to cultivate metta that like of a brahma and did not speak ill of cultivating jhanas.

It is becoming apparent that the brahma level metta and kama raga cannot coexist.

So I’d like to know how one would successfully be able to do this(reduce kama raga)?

[upekkha100]

Y not brings up a good point. There is a distinction between jealousy and envy.

So which is issa? Both jealousy and envy?

Anyone know of any specific descriptions of issa in the Tipitaka?

[upekkha100]

Lal wrote:
“One could determine for ONESELF (But only a Buddha can determine the status of another person).”

There are at least 2 cases in the Tipitaka where two Ariyas did not know or doubted their Ariya status. They were mentioned on this forum. If someone knows the exact references, please feel free to share.

In one case in the Tipitaka, if I remember correctly, a man kept thinking he did not attain magga phala because he still had angry thoughts, even after getting confirmation by the Buddha. But he was indeed a Sotapanna. (Those angry thoughts were from his patiga, a cetasika that a Sotapanna still has, it is the weaker version of dosa/hatred.)

There was another instance in the Tipitaka where an Arahant did not even know that he/she was an Arahant.

And according to this site, there are jati Sotapannas(those who became Sotapanna in one of their past lives) who when reborn as humans do not know that they are Sotapannas.

This begs the following questions:
1) So if even an Arahant did not know, how can anyone with lesser stages of Nibbana determine this for themselves?

2) Why is it that some Ariyas know with certainty, while others have no idea, and others doubt? What causes one to be certain and causes others to doubt/not know/forget?

Lal wrote:
“The buddha has stated that it is fine, and also fine to declare it too (see Maha Parinibbna Sutta, for example). But of course, one may make such declaration with or without merit.”

I will have to find the relevant part in the sutta to verify.

I would think it is fine too, but only AFTER one received confirmation by the Buddha. Otherwise how can one be sure? We are not omniscient like him.

It seems a lot of people these days think they are enlightened. Whether it is in the Hindu, New age, or even Buddhist community.

3) What if they simply have wrong views/miccha ditthi and mistaking the new changes in their behavior/personality/character/gati for stages of Nibbana? Mistaking their newly attained peaceful mind state and their jhanic symptoms for stages of Nibbana like those wrong views in the Brahmajāla Sutta? A yogi or anyone attaining the 8th jhana could easily mistake that for Nibbana.

My point is, without the Buddha’s confirmation, I think it better to just keep following the Path and not assume one has attained magga phala. This could risk complacency. And this could risk the increase of asmi mana(pride/ego/arrogance). I have seen this to be just the case with a certain famous yogi who implies he is fully enlightened, yet I can sense/feel the energy of his pride even from watching his videos.

[upekkha100]

Unless I misunderstand, another sutta: the Metta (Mettanisamsa) Sutta also seems to say one of the benefits of cultivating metta is being reborn as brahma(benefit #11):
“1. “He sleeps in comfort. 2. He awakes in comfort. 3. He sees no evil dreams. 4. He is dear to human beings. 5. He is dear to non-human beings. 6. Devas (gods) protect him. 7. Fire, poison, and sword cannot touch him. 8. His mind can concentrate quickly. 9. His countenance is serene. 10. He dies without being confused in mind. 11. If he fails to attain arahantship (the highest sanctity) here and now, he will be reborn in the brahma-world.”

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.016.piya.html

Question:
Now how does one do this? Meaning: How does one cultivate metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha to the level of a brahma(the kind of metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha that a brahma would radiate)? So that one can have higher chances of being reborn a brahma?

And by “metta level of a brahma” I mean as compared to an average person’s metta level. For example, a brahma’s metta would be like 100/100, an average person with low metta would be 30/100(I’m quantifying and using these numbers for sake of using as examples).

To me, it would seem this feat(mastering metta. Attaining 100/100 metta)is not possible ONLY through informal bhavana alone. To clarify further, informal bhavana being the meditation that is done outside of formal sitting meditation:where one tries to think/speak/do actions with metta. Basically being in metta mode all day long, everyday. Majority of one’s sankhara is done with metta. But I don’t think this alone is enough to get metta to the level of a brahma. I think one would need the reinforcement of formal sitting meditation too? Through deep absorption in metta, like via jhana maybe?

[upekkha100]

Lal wrote:
“ALL LIVING BEINGS on this Earth came from the pabhassara brahma realm in the beginning (i.e., each and every living being on this was a brahma at the beginning). ”

Even that tiny bit was very revealing. That does not seem far fetched to me, and would actually make sense.

As I told Lal in the email, if such a book on the Agganna sutta was written I would read it.

Lal, though I disagree with your views regarding this somewhat, I can see where you are coming from.

Thanks for sharing a bit about the sutta.

[upekkha100]

Do I misunderstand the Pathama metta sutta(AN 4.125)?

PureDhamma Pathama Metta Sutta Post

SuttaCentral Pathama Metta Sutta translation

It says one can be reborn in brahma realms if they if they cultivate and sustain metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha.

Says “abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it.”

The “abide in that” and “without losing it” implies jhana to me.

So this would mean focus of meditation would be one the four brahmavihara.

Question:
So one can get to jhana via focusing on one of these four: metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha?

[upekkha100]

Tobias wrote:
“But before reaching such a stage one has to analyse the dhamma and needs hints and proof to establish saddha/panna.”

I agree with this.

I was one of the people who requested about this sutta. I’ll repeat some of what I said in the email for others:

There are numerous origin stories of this world/humanity from various cultures around the world. I am the most interested in the Buddha Dhamma version. This is the one that counts in my opinion. This is the one that will probably make the most sense. That extra puzzle piece that could clarify a lot of questions.

In honesty, I will remain curious about the true translation/interpretation/meaning of this sutta until I find it. Even Venerable Moggallana, after becoming an Arahant, seemed to have been curious and explored this universe. Key word being “curious” and “explore” and not “tanha/attachment”. It will not be end of the world if we never know, nor is it necessary. But if one can be curious and explore without attachment or with the least amount of tanha as possible, then I see this as no issue nor hindrance to the Path.

It is a shame the correct translations/meaning/interpretation for this sutta is not available.

Venerable Waharaka has talked about this sutta in a desana.
Venerable Waharaka desana
If anyone who is proficient in Sinhalese can translate his desana or anyone proficient in Pali can translate/interpret this sutta, even just the general layout please share in writing or even a desana. Myself and I’m sure many others would be thankful and be curious to read/listen to it. There is no private messaging system here, so can email me at [email protected].

[upekkha100]

I would like to know about the specific step by step process to get to jhanas as well.

It would have great benefits.

Not only less temptation by sense pleasures, but less struggle fighting against strong sense pleasures as well. The struggle gets annoying/tiring after a while. It would be nice not to have this struggle.

What instructions did the Buddha recommend for anariyas who are following the mundane Path to cultivate the jhanas?

If not through breathing, what was the method he approved of?

What should be the focus? A Dhamma concept? Metta?

I feel I can’t focus on a concept for that long, nor on metta.

[upekkha100]

For the 9 stages of a citta:
1) citta
2) mano
3) manasan
4) hadayan
5) pandaran
6) mana indriyan
7) manayatana
8) vinnana
9) vinnanakkhandha

1) Are the asobhana/sobhana cetasika incorporated at the manasan stage?

2) If not, at which stage are they incorporated?

[upekkha100]

So going back to what I had wanted to point out before:

The 7 universal cetasika of a citta:
1) Phassa
2) Vedana
3) Sanna
4) Cetana
5) Ekaggata
6) Jivitindriya
7) Manasikara

Is the following correct:
-All of those 7 cetasika start out as pure/uncontaminated
-All start out as neutral.
-Whether it is an anariya or Ariya.

Meaning for example:
-Phassa is just phassa, and not yet samphassa at this initial stage.
-Sanna is not yet nicca/sukha/atta.
-Vedana is neither amisa sukha nor amisa dukha. At this early stage, it is neutral too(I remember using listening to a favorite song repeatedly as an example, and was told my vedana would INITIALLY be neutral before contaminating with tanha each time I’d listen to it.)

Question:
It is said cetana is the cetasika that include the other cetasikas: asobhana cetasika or sobhana cetasika. Both asobhana and sobhana cetasika generate kamma. Bad kamma and good kamma. Neither are neutral. So at the early stage of a citta, is the cetana cetasika neutral too like phassa/sanna/vedana/and the rest of the universal cetasika? Meaning: at the very early initial stage, is it correct to say that cetana does not incorporate any of the kamma generating cetasikas(neither asobhana cetasika nor sobhana cetasika)?

[upekkha100]

I know I may seem annoying but I’ll explain why I’m discussing this. I think it is important what words are used. I can list the reasons. One of them being: because unlike other belief systems, I have noticed everything in Buddhism is not random nor by chance. It is deliberate and precise. There is a reason for the words that are used to convey the message. It clears away confusion, not cause it. So if the Buddha called an Arahant’s consciousness as vinnana, it would seem odd/inconsistent/confusing to me. But I’ll make that topic some other time to get other peoples input. I don’t think continuing that here would be appropriate and just drag on this discussion fruitlessly.

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